Armed Forces Bill

Lord Lyell Excerpts

Wednesday 6th July 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lyell]

My Lords, what a pleasure and privilege it is to follow the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Boyce. Indeed, there is a panoply of noble and gallant Lords sitting opposite us. His was a marvellous and eloquent summing-up of many of the points that I would have wished to raise.

Perhaps I may take 15 seconds, as American radio says, to say what a real pleasure it is to have this Bill before us today under the tutelage of my noble friend Lord Astor. It was 38 years ago that I went on my first visit with the House of Lords Defence Group to Royal Air Force Leuchars. There are high standards among Ministers of your Lordships’ House, and I know that my colleagues all around the Chamber with an interest in defence are immensely grateful for the enormous trouble that my noble friend and his departmental team have taken—particularly over some very complicated measures that we are discussing today.

Thanks to just 19 months as a young conscript in the National Service, I realise that service life is different. But every five years we bring civil and criminal law into line with the service environment, even though life—the climate and human relations—can be different in the service environment.

I have an idiot habit of dating the commencement of my notes for the House. As I was making my notes last night, I noticed that it was my 54th anniversary—they reminded me that Recruit Lyell, number 23393360, graduated to Guardsman Lyell. I got promoted but I did not get paid any more as I was a conscript. During my short career in the Scots Guards, we had a marvellous tutor who carried out everything you could want regarding the code and the Armed Forces contract—everything that is contained in Clause 2. He was known as Sergeant “Kiwi” Clements in the Coldstream Guards because he spit-and-polished everything, including us. He made me and 16 other recruits—and many more—into soldiers. I hope that the Bill will keep young soldiers, and civilians, on the right track should they get into any difficulties.

I scanned the measures in the Bill, and will be able to look at them in much more detail in Committee; for instance, measures relating to entry and search in civilian and service establishments, and to drugs and alcohol. Alcohol was familiar to me all those years ago as a young soldier, but recreational drugs are to me extraordinary medicaments. When the Armed Forces are attempting to enforce discipline in behaviour, which is absolutely vital in Armed Forces life, I look forward to my noble friend and his team being able to explain a great many of these matters to me.

I looked at Clause 17, which covers a rather delicate area. There are various aspects that my noble friend will be able to brief me on. His team were able to give me a little help this morning concerning prevention orders. One is called an SOPO, or sexual offences prevention order, the other is an EPO, or extended prevention order, dealing with particularly delicate subjects that cover both service personnel and civilians who might have contact with them or might be in the service environment.

I asked my noble friend’s team whether they could cover Clause 17(6) at lines 25 and 26. I would like to know why that particular measure deals only with England and Wales. Do they think that such offences might not take place in a service environment in Scotland? My noble friend is showing some concern, but his team briefed me on this. He need not reply to me tonight as it can be covered at a later stage.

Clause 22 deals with civilians being subject to service discipline. In the guidance the geographical area is perhaps lacking. It covers the Falklands, but it is not clear whether it covers Cyprus, which is well known by my noble friend the Minister as he and I had two very successful visits there, let alone Hong Kong. I hope that it will be confirmed by my noble friend’s team that Clause 22 covers any aspects of behaviour that occur virtually worldwide that need to be covered by service discipline.

We shall be able to go into Clause 25 considerably more in Committee. I have some personal knowledge of that area. A C130 aircraft crashed half way between the home of my noble friend the Minister and my home in Scotland. It was a Royal Air Force aircraft, and sadly there was loss of life and damage. There was considerable difficulty with compensation, although happily it was well settled. My evil mind begins to worry about what would happen if a NATO aircraft were involved in such an incident. Possibly my noble friend could explain whether Clause 25 would cover compensation for damage caused by such an accident.

That is enough of my mischief and my light look at the measures before us. They are enormously complicated, dealing with circumstances in which people get into difficulty, and I am terribly grateful to my noble friend and his team. I hope that all of us here this evening will convey our best wishes and respect to every man and woman concerned in defending this nation all over the world. We wish them all well not only tonight but all the time.

Strategic Defence and Security Review

Lord Lyell Excerpts

Friday 12th November 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lyell]

My Lords, I am delighted that the noble Baroness, Lady Dean, has returned to the Chamber—I wonder whether that was because she saw that I was about to speak. Many of your Lordships have spoken of the very distinguished noble and gallant Lords present in the Chamber. Although reference has been made to Mr James Arbuthnot, the chairman of the Select Committee in another place, I hope that your Lordships also appreciate the incredible job done by the noble Baroness, Lady Dean, on the House of Lords defence group. Indeed, I know that that work is much appreciated by my noble friend the Minister. She has assisted my defence studies throughout her time in your Lordships' House.

It might startle your Lordships to hear that somebody who, 50 years and more ago, was a conscript with the Scots Guards would want to concentrate his remarks today in this great debate on this admirable report on our air defence and aeronautical systems. I took some interest in the new Joint Strike Fighter. Alas, my office across the way required a bit of a spring clean. I heaved out a number of documents and was rather startled to find something relating to the 1994 financial year. I found an admirable little booklet on the Joint Strike Fighter, which I think is classified under the United States method as the F-35.

I found all sorts of other interesting information dated 2001. I hope that the Minister will check yesterday’s edition of the Scotsman where I noticed a reference to the possibility of having an operational-conversion unit for one or other version of the Joint Strike Fighter—I think it is the F-35C, the carrier version—that I understand is to be acquired in 2010, or later, and is to be our joint weapon with the Typhoon. I noticed a particularly favourable reference to the possibility of the operational-conversion unit being located somewhere in Scotland. Indeed, the Royal Air Force Lossiemouth was mentioned. My noble friend might be able to disabuse me if this is a completely idle rumour but I wonder where it came from. I hope that he will not dismiss it out of hand. Also, can he confirm that the controls and avionics of the Joint Strike Fighter—the F-35 that he has spoken about—are broadly similar for the versions that we are to acquire so that spare parts for avionics and control systems will be available for ourselves and our allies from manufacturers throughout the world?

I have another short paragraph in my notes labelled “Harriers and Carriers”. Virtually all my remarks were made for me by the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Boyce. I have much sympathy for the Minister, because the incoming remarks—I will not call them missiles—from the noble and gallant Lord were such that perhaps only he could take care of them. I think that he will, but they were particularly strong arguments. I would be grateful if the Minister would either tell me in writing or let me know during the debate what will be the fate of the Harriers, which I believe are classified as GR9 or GR9A and which have been updated and taken as role models for the service afloat.

Secondly, there have been references to “Ark Royal”. Will she be completely scrapped? I suspect and hope that she will be kept in mothballs and may be useful. The Minister, and the documents that we have, indicate that we will not be acquiring the short take-off and vertical landing version of the Joint Strike Fighter, but we will stick with the F-35C carrier version. I confirm to the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Boyce, to the Minister and to the noble Lord, Lord Davies, who will speak next, that Harriers are part of my bloodline and bedtime reading. I first visited Royal Air Force Wittering in 1975. I made a further visit in 1978 and have made at least three other visits. I also visited Sea Harriers at Yeovilton and saw these marvellous aircraft operating afloat when I was taken on a splendid firepower demonstration day at Warminster, and on days at sea off Devonport.

Apart from the avionics and electronics in these little aircraft, I understand that the companies involved are also heavily involved in other aspects of electronics, such as in training aids for Trident systems at Royal Naval Base Clyde. My noble friend and I were young soldiers at Warminster. I understand that many of the British Army simulator devices there are an integral part of the same system that is used in avionics.

I must push on. The noble Lord and I both have an interest in Scotland. Would he keep in mind any comments on the further use of the bases in the county of Moray? Royal Air Force Kinloss, which I visited in early 1974, is the base for the Nimrods. It has been announced that the base might be transferred to other use by the Ministry of Defence. Will my noble friend cast his mind, and indeed the minds of his colleagues, to other uses for it? He will be aware that Fort George, with a battalion of infantry, is no major distance away. I hope he may be able to consider putting RAF Kinloss to some other, perhaps non-Royal Air Force, use. I also hope that he will take particular care of 45 Commando, based in my lovely county of Angus. I hope that the unit will have the training areas that it needs.

In conclusion, the House of Lords defence group does not concentrate entirely on fascinating technology and extraordinary things. The noble Baroness, Lady Dean, has pointed out that there are other aspects that she in particular took care of. In 2009, our group went down to visit 16 Air Assault Brigade in Colchester. I spent a particularly uncomfortable morning listening to families there talk about their problems with married quarters and other allied subjects. I used the term “lamentable” then and I repeat it today. Things may have improved. Certainly for single soldiers they were improving greatly. Will the Minister confirm that progress is being made with 16 Air Assault Brigade’s accommodation in Colchester? Perhaps he could write to me. I thank him and reiterate how pleased we are to have him, especially, as my noble friend remarked, on account of his noble and particularly gallant grandfather.