Employment Rights Bill

Debate between Lord Lucas and Baroness Jones of Whitchurch

Committee stage
Tuesday 10th June 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, I am conscious that we have had a slightly disjointed debate; as I said, some of these issues were debated in the previous group and were covered in my opening remarks. I will pick up a few points. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Goddard, for saying that we are attempting to create a more orderly recognition process, because that is exactly what our amendments are trying to do: to provide the clarity that we felt was missing. I should say that, in addition to the comments I made earlier, we notified all Peers of the Government’s amendments, twice and in writing, and we invited all Peers to a briefing on these on 8 May. All the details have been spelled out in an all-peers letter and supporting annexes. We have therefore been at pains to explain the thinking behind our amendments.

Obviously, most recognition processes go through extremely smoothly, but we believe that this reform is necessary to prevent recruitment for the purposes of thwarting trade union recognition. The process must be fair and not undermined by underhand tactics. Although not all recruitment is underhand, of course, we decided after consultation that the freezing proposed in the Bill is the best way to achieve that fairness. We are attempting to come up with a fair system. Attempting to distinguish between the various intentions of different employers and their recruitment practices is impractical and would be likely to lead to disputes. We felt that this would not be in the interests of employers, the unions or the workers. Of course, there will be changes to the people in the bargaining unit, and where a union is recognised, new workers will be able to take part in subsequent ballots—for example, should a derecognition ballot be held—and other forms of consultation. These restrictions will apply only to that particular element of trade union recognition.

The noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, said that he wants to introduce a proportionality test. That would make it harder for the CAC to issue an order determining how a breach by the employer affected the recognition process; that would be difficult for it to establish. It should be sufficient for the CAC to establish that a breach has occurred, rather than having to make the more difficult judgment about proportionality. Also, the CAC is very experienced in such things and is well equipped to do so.

I say to the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, that we do not object to his amendment only because this has not been done before, but because we wanted to consult before we made a final decision about changing the acceptance threshold from the 10% proposed limit.

I think I have covered most of the other points, either in the letters that we have sent out or in my earlier speeches. I therefore ask the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Lucas (Con)]

I would be very grateful if the Minister could address the substance of my amendment; 10% or 2% is all very fine, but if it results in the answer of one employee being sufficient, that seems to be not an ideal situation. I would have thought that in seeking to look after small businesses it would be sensible to require a minimum number. I cannot see anything in the structure of the Bill at the moment that allows a minimum number to be applied to this percentage. A percentage can generate one if the company is small, whether it is 10% or 2%. Would it not be a good idea to have something in the Bill, subject to consultation, which allowed in small companies with a small workforce for it not to be just one employee who is triggering this procedure?

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

That that would come out in the consultation. I think the noble Lord’s proposal of three is a somewhat arbitrary number. If we are going to do that, there are all sorts of minimum numbers that could be applied. I urge noble Lords to recognise that these are the issues that we will consider in the consultation, but I do not think that the rather arbitrary figure that the noble Lord proposed is appropriate at this time.

[Lord Lucas (Con)]

I understand that, but it still requires something in the Bill to allow a minimum number. We can return to that matter on Report.

Employment Rights Bill

Debate between Lord Lucas and Baroness Jones of Whitchurch

Committee stage
Tuesday 3rd June 2025 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business and Trade and Department for Science, Information and Technology (Baroness Jones of Whitchurch) (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords for this short debate and the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, for tabling Amendment 140.

When we were developing the plan to make work pay, we were clear in our ambition to establish a fair deal that balances employees’ rights and protections with employers’ confidence to hire the talent, skills and expertise they require to grow their business. A notice period is a period of time put in place to ensure a smooth transition, allowing the employer to manage minimum disruption to business requirements while the employee hands over their responsibilities. We therefore feel that, in the round, our proposals are beneficial to employers and fair. Many employers do not want their staff to leave too quickly, so that fairness is built in. Although the statutory minimum notice period that an employee must give an employer is currently, after one month’s employment, no less than one week, often a longer contractual notice period is agreed between the employer and their employees. I must say to the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, that I do not recognise three months as the standard; for many workers, it is considerably less.

This is all about fairness and balance. In practice, employers and employees recognise that both parties require stability and certainty to maintain a fair agreement. Of course, if an employment contract specifies a notice period longer than the statutory minimum, an employee is entitled to receive that longer period of notice, but the employer sets that out in the contract at the outset.

The current minimum notice periods legislation entitles an employee to their normal contractual pay rate during a notice period, as you would expect. This measure would require an enforcement mechanism of employees’ rights to increased notice pay, which would result in more disputes being taken to employment tribunals or the fair work agency. It would create a requirement for an employee’s current and future employer to confirm their salary offer, adding an additional step in the process of offboarding an employee. It also presents the possibility of increased financial burdens on employers.

So, the Government feel that it is not necessary to make a further assessment of this. They have not made an assessment of the costs and the impacts of making this change to employment rights. To do so would require careful consultation with employers and employee representatives. However, we have not received lobbying or any suggestion from employers that they particularly want the sort of proposal that the noble Lord has put forward.

The Bill is delivering the commitments made by the Government to improve workers’ rights in the plan to make work pay. I have listened to the noble Lord, and I absolutely agree with the noble Lords, Lord Goddard and Lord Hunt, that we want a simple process. Our process is simple. It is also fair to both sides: to the employer and to the employee. If those arrangements need to change, by and large, that can be done within the workplace, based on negotiations—so we do not feel the pressure to make the changes that the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, is proposing, but I thank him nevertheless for the suggestion.

[Lord Lucas (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for her reply. I am sorry she does not feel sympathy for the direction I was taking. It seems to me that when you are addressing the question of productivity in the economy, there are no big solutions. It is rather like the way British cycling came to win: you make a very large number of very small improvements, all in the same direction.

This was intended to be one of those, to increase productivity but at the same time to make life a bit better for employees. I am inclined that way. I spent last weekend at a Premier Inn. Premier Inn does not provide toilet brushes. I do not see why the cleaners who come after me and other people should have to scrub out the toilet bowls when I could do that myself. Having a campaign with Premier Inn to change its policy on that would be worthwhile. It is a small change but, by making small changes enough times, you make some progress. Indeed, one of the secrets of this House is to make small changes. So I am sorry that this small change has not appealed to the Minister, but I will try again. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Employment Rights Bill

Debate between Lord Lucas and Baroness Jones of Whitchurch

Committee stage
Thursday 8th May 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

I will write to noble Lords about when the regulations will be available. This may well be part of the implementation plan, which is still awaited. Noble Lords can genuinely take it from me that they will receive it as soon as it is available.

We will consult on the contents of the draft regulations and engage with a range of stakeholders, including trade unions and businesses. The noble Lord, Lord Fox, asked whether we could have further discussions about this. Of course I am happy to talk to noble Lords in more detail about how this might apply, because I want noble Lords to be reassured that the flexibility they seek is already in the Bill in its different formulations of wording. But I am happy to have further discussions about this.

I hope that that provides some reassurance to noble Lords. I therefore ask the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Lucas (Con)]

I join the noble Lord, Lord Fox, in saying that I would really appreciate the opportunity to look at how this Bill deals with lumpy demand— not only predictably lumpy but randomly lumpy. I ask the Clerk at the Table to transmit to the Clerk of the Parliaments a request to tell us how the Bill will affect the House’s employment practices, because we are a great generator of lumpy demand, not least on the Public Bill Office. I would really like that immediate understanding of how the Bill affects a substantial organisation, but one with a very unpredictable set of demands such as the Houses of Parliament.

This lumpiness is a characteristic of, say, the NHS, which may suddenly get a demand and have to do things. Suddenly something emerges and the pattern of working has to change. Will the Bill fix those longer hours so that they become set and cannot be rowed back from when the lump disappears? A good understanding, before we reach Report, of how the Bill will work in practice and interact with a range of real businesses would be really valuable, and I hope the Minister can offer it to us.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, I thought I had already offered to have further discussions, but I take the noble Lord’s point.

Data (Use and Access) Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Lucas and Baroness Jones of Whitchurch

Committee stage
Wednesday 18th December 2024 Grand Committee

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, for his Amendment 211F. I absolutely agree that local environmental records centres provide an important service. I reassure noble Lords that the Government’s digital planning programme is developing data standards and tools to increase the availability, accessibility and usability of planning data. This will transform people’s experience of planning and housing, including through local environmental records centres. On that basis, I must ask the noble Lord whether he is prepared to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Lucas (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful for that extensive answer from the Minister. If I have anything that I hope that she might add, I will write to her afterwards.

My heart is always in the cause of making sure that the Government get their business done on time every time, and that we finish Committee stages when they ask, as doubtless they will discover with some of the other Bills they have in this Session. For now, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Data (Use and Access) Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Lucas and Baroness Jones of Whitchurch

Committee stage
Monday 16th December 2024 Grand Committee

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

I am very happy to talk to the noble Baroness about this issue. She asked what the Government’s view is; we are listening very carefully to the Information Commissioner and the advice that he is putting together on this issue.

[Lord Lucas (Con)]

My Lords, I am very grateful for the answers the noble Baroness gave to my amendments. I will study carefully what she said in Hansard, and if I have anything further to ask, I will write to her.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My understanding is that it would be. Every individual who was affected would receive their own notification rather than it just being on a website, for example.

Let me just make sure I have not missed anyone out. On Amendment 123B on addressing bias in automated decision-making, compliance with the data protection principles, including accuracy, transparency and fairness, will ensure that organisations take the necessary measures to address the risk of bias.

On Amendment 123C from the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, I reassure him that the Government strongly agree that employment rights should be fit for a modern economy. The plan to make work pay will achieve this by addressing the challenges introduced by new trends and technologies. I agree very much with my noble friend Lord Knight that although we have to get this right, there are opportunities for a different form of work, and we should not just see this as being potentially a negative impact on people’s lives. However, we want to get the balance right with regard to the impact on individuals to make sure that we get the best rather than the possible negative effects out of it.

Employment rights law is more suitable for regulating the specific use of data and technology in the workplace rather than data protection law in isolation, as data protection law sets out general rules and principles for processing that apply in all contexts. Noble Lords can rest assured that we take the impact on employment and work very seriously, and as part of our plan to make work pay and the Employment Rights Bill, we will return to these issues.

On Amendments 119, 120, 121 and 122, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, the noble Viscount, Lord Colville, and my noble friend Lord Knight, the Government share the noble Lords’ belief in the importance of public sector algorithmic transparency, and, as the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, reminded us, we had a very good debate on this last week. The algorithmic transparency recording standard is already mandatory for government departments and arm’s-length bodies. This is a cross-government policy mandate underpinned by digital spend controls, which means that when budget is requested for a relevant tool, the team in question must commit to publishing an ATRS record before receiving the funds.

As I said on Friday, we are implementing this policy accordingly, and I hope to publish further records imminently. I very much hope that when noble Lords see what I hope will be a significant number of new records on this, they will be reassured that the nature of the mandation and the obligation on public sector departments is working.

Policy routes also enable us to provide detailed guidance to the public sector on how to carry out its responsibilities and monitor compliance. Examples include the data ethics framework, the generative AI framework, and the guidelines for AI procurement. Additionally, the data protection framework already achieves some of the intended outcomes of these amendments. It requires organisations, including public authorities, to demonstrate how they have identified and mitigated risks when processing personal data. The ICO provides guidance on how organisations can audit their privacy management and ensure a high level of data protection compliance.

I know I have given a great deal of detail there. If I have not covered all the points that the noble Lords have raised, I will write. In the meantime, given the above assurances, I hope that the noble Lord will withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Lucas (Con)]

My Lords, I would be very grateful if the Minister wrote to me about Amendment 115. I have done my best before and after to study Clause 80 to understand how it provides the safeguards she describes, and have failed. If she or her officials could take the example of a job application and the responses expected from it, and take me through the clauses to understand what sort of response would be expected and how that is set out in the legislation, I would be most grateful.

[Baroness Jones of Whitchurch (Lab)]

My Lords, I am happy to write.