Energy Bill [HL]

Lord Lucas Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 19th December 2022 Grand Committee

[Lord Whitty (Lab)]

My Lords, noble Lords may have noticed that I extracted my amendments to the second group, when they were originally suggested to be tabled in this group. They relate to the protection of consumers.

I am grateful that the Minister emphasised protection, for both domestic and non-domestic consumers, of the commitments to district heating, decentralised energy and community energy. I am strongly in favour of that move, but I do not think the Bill, as first drafted, or as I read the amendments proposed in the Minister’s group, entirely meet the need to protect consumers of district heating et cetera to the same extent that consumers of other suppliers are protected. I was gratified by some of the Minister’s words this afternoon, but I still do not feel that this combination of what is in the Bill and the Minister’s own amendments will deliver for consumers of district heating the protections, that have been absent for so long, which are supplied via Ofgem to consumers of other forms of electricity supply. I think it will need a bit of tweaking and I shall come to that in the following group.

I do, however, want to register my appreciation for the role of decentralised energy being recognised here. We have some tidying up to do, but I welcome the Government’s commitment to extend support both for consumers in this sector and for the sector itself.

[Lord Lucas (Con)]

My Lords, I wonder whether rounds one to three of the green heat network fund are throwing some light on the potential for expansion in this sector. Are the Government viewing heat networks as something that we will see a lot of, or just little bits and pieces? Coming back to the amendment spoken to by the noble Lord, Lord Ravensdale, if we are going to see a lot, are we seeing green heat sources coming into play in this area? If we are to see a lot of networks, and since the ones I am familiar with, at least, require serious street works, is there a possibility of combining those street works with separating sewage from storm water?

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, I want to reflect the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, in welcoming the fact that the Government really are concentrating on this area and giving it the attention that they have. We are one of the lackeys on heat networks, certainly in comparison with the rest of Europe.

One thing that struck me, though, was that on the occasions when I meet the Minister before a Bill goes through, he normally asks me to keep the number of Liberal Democrat amendments to a minimum. I think he has broken the record on this occasion, but I will keep my side of the bargain.

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[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I thank all noble Lords for their contributions to this brief debate. I acknowledge the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Teverson: it will be difficult for me to ask him in future to limit the number of Liberal Democrat amendments after tabling all these. I quite take his point there; all I will say is that I flagged up to noble Lords at Second Reading that these amendments would be coming forward. There will be more on other subjects, as I also flagged up at Second Reading, which are still being drafted and will be tabled as soon as possible.

I first remind noble Lords, in acknowledging the point made by my noble friend Lord Lucas, that heat networks will play a crucial role in the UK reaching its net-zero targets, as they are one of the most cost-effective ways of decarbonising heating, particularly in built-up areas, where it would be more difficult to have individual property solutions. Noble Lords will probably be aware that the Climate Change Committee estimated that around 18% of UK heat will potentially come from heat networks by 2050—up from around 2% currently—to support the cost-effective delivery of our carbon targets. However, the sector is currently unregulated.

The Bill will provide regulation for that sector and give Ministers a power to introduce, among other things, consumer protection rules and carbon emission limits on heat networks. The majority of heat networks are performing perfectly well and often run by local authorities, housing associations and others, but one or two small, private networks are abusing their customers. Of course, once you are connected to it, that is effectively a monopoly. You have no choice but to take your business elsewhere, so regulation is required in the sector.

I will now talk to Amendment 162. The Bill already allows the Government to control heating sources by providing for authorisation conditions to contain emissions limits; this is contained in paragraph 14(3)(f) of Schedule 15. By gradually lowering emissions limits, authorisation conditions will drive changes in the types of fuels and technologies used to power various heat networks.

Using emission limits allows for dynamic, ongoing regulation. I submit that mandating specific heat sources is a more limited approach that risks the Government and this House picking winners. The exact approach for implementing emission limits will of course be subject to further consultation with industry and stakeholders. Settling on a pathway ahead of that consultation would, at this stage, be unwise.

Removing whole fuel types risks ignoring other factors that will come into play, such as technological improvements, system efficiencies, varying fuel costs, the replacement cycle of generation assets, and the need for flexibility in a system to provide separately for back-up or peak demand.

The Government are of course committed to net zero by 2050, and we see heat networks playing a vital role in this. The Government wish for the Bill and its secondary legislation to ensure that the heat network sector thrives and expands and is not held back in this goal. Therefore, I hope that the noble Lord, on behalf of the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, will feel able not to press the amendment.

[Lord Lucas (Con)]

My Lords, I am delighted that my noble friend is so optimistic and shares the Climate Change Committee’s optimism about the future of heat networks. Will he therefore encourage his colleagues to support deep geothermal which, if we are to need that volume of energy, must be a serious contender as it is on the continent. However, in this country, since we have not had the exploration, there is a lot of uncertainty about whether the particular strata will behave in a way that allows heat extraction. It would be a real help to that industry if the Government were to take an interest in how to reduce that first well risk, so that we can get going in the way that the Netherlands and Germany have to take advantage of the deep heat that we all believe—or the British Geological Survey at least believes—is down there and available.

Similarly, is my noble friend content that the regulations governing tidal rivers—such as the one just outside—are such that we can use those as a source of heat for heat networks?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

My noble friend makes some good points. There is tremendous potential from deep geothermal, and we are funding some exploratory projects. However, the performance is mixed: some projects have drilled and not found any rocks hot enough to power the network. What is perhaps more viable, particularly in mining areas, is the use of waste mine water for powering heat networks. There are a number of exciting schemes that I have visited, particularly in the north-east of England, where they can extract the warm water from existing mine workings, put it through heat exchangers and use it for heat networks. There are a lot of promising developments in this area.

I will get a more detailed answer for my noble friend on his question about tidal waters, but I know that there are some concerns in the industry about over-regulation from the Environment Agency in some of these areas—they have been flagged up to me. I wrote to Defra about a year ago on this subject but, to be honest, I cannot remember what reply I got—if any—at the time. I will write to him on that subject.

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[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I am of course happy to set out to noble Lords the details of our position in writing. We want to reduce bureaucracy as much as possible but we have an overriding need to ensure the stability of the energy system. Certain technical requirements need to be met by these schemes. We want to encourage them as much as we possibly can, but that comes with limits. We will certainly write with as many details as we can provide.

[Lord Lucas (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend has been very helpful, but I am none the less fairly disappointed by the replies he has been able to give. To illustrate, I live in Eastbourne and, if you stand on the hills above Eastbourne—Britain’s sunniest town—and look down at hundreds of acres of industrial and retail estates and car parks, about the only solar panel you will see is on the local college’s eco training hub. That is because the ownership and commercial benefits of these areas are extremely complicated. No one is in a position to get a cost-effective, reasonable-scale scheme going on their own; it needs something that will work as a whole.

A decent feed-in tariff need not be subsidised—it can be below market rate—but there needs to be something so that there is a base on which you can build. My noble friend’s department was kind enough to send a representative to our recent solar summit. One of the main things that came out of a gathering of local businesses, energy suppliers and so on was the need for a basis on which local collaboration can be built, not to create something that requires a subsidy to produce electricity at a greater cost than would otherwise be the case, but to enable a very complicated situation to come together and be supported into commerciality, allowing local virtuous circles of electricity generation and consumption to emerge. That is not happening in our system at the moment, which is ridiculous. Something needs to happen to enable us to move from 200 hectares of white roof to 200 hectares of black roof, and to get the benefits of that.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

As I said, a number of suppliers already offer competitive tariffs in the market. They will provide long-term certainty on pricing. There are many examples of industrial units that have already put solar panels on. Obviously, the most cost-effective way is for them to use that power themselves and export any surplus power to the grid using the smart export tariff guarantees. I will answer that question again: the Government are supportive of community energy schemes. We want to see more of them, but we think that is best delivered through the market framework. I will happily provide noble Lords with more detail in writing.

Biomass Electricity Subsidies: Deforestation

Lord Lucas Excerpts

Thursday 20th May 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

Provided that it is not commercially confidential, I will certainly share that with the noble Lord.

[Lord Lucas (Con) [V]]

Instead of razing American forests would it not be a better use of our subsidies to stimulate the development of a coppice harvesting service in the southern UK? Coppiced woodlands are rich ecologies that need regular felling but they are not getting it because there is currently no economic outlet for the timber.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

My noble friend makes a good suggestion. We did try that, of course. Subsidies have been available for more than a decade but we have seen a lack of uptake because they cannot compete with the use of waste products in huge commercial forestries in the US.

Industrial Strategy: Local Growth

Lord Lucas Excerpts

Monday 26th April 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

That was not a deliberate omission. Local authorities are still key to the development and delivery of these strategies and policies, along with the LEPs, the mayoral combined authorities and, of course, local businesses themselves that need to be involved in the way forward.

[Lord Lucas (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I refer to the paragraph from Build Back Better headed “Changing the way we invest in places”. For a town such as Eastbourne, what will be the empowered local institution and with whom will it cohere and co-ordinate?

Climate Change Committee: Carbon Budget Report

Lord Lucas Excerpts

Tuesday 16th March 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The noble Lord makes some good points. Local government is indeed a key partner in delivering net zero, and this Government are supporting it with a range of funding streams covering key decarbonisation areas such as transport and building. Local government bodies are, of course, key to leading transition in their areas, leading by example on their own estates, and supporting and enabling others to follow their campaigns.

[Lord Lucas (Con) [V]]

My Lords, does my noble friend the Minister agree that, since we are asking for long-term, fundamental and voluntary changes in behaviour, we should do that on the basis of trust and openness? Will the Government investigate the potential for setting up a repository of the best available data and research, so that individuals can easily establish, for instance, how much they are helping by adopting a vegan diet and how on earth it is possible for the local council to say that it is recycling when it is mashing up broken glass with our newspapers?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I certainly agree with the first part of my noble friend’s question about the need for trust and openness. The Government are currently examining how best to support the public in making green choices and adopting sustainable behaviours. This includes identifying information that people need and how it can best be communicated, and providing it in an accessible format.

Domestic Energy Efficiency: Retrofitting

Lord Lucas Excerpts

Monday 1st March 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

It would of course be best to have long-term guarantees of funding, but we continue to have these discussions internally. I agreed earlier that the green homes grant scheme has been a challenge. We are working hard to improve its performance because we must get it working and up and running to bring about confidence in the supply chain.

[Lord Lucas (Con) [V]]

My Lords, does my noble friend recognise that the advent of another huge government subsidy scheme will be widely welcomed by cowboys? Can he assure me that the new scheme will work closely with local authorities to ensure that those thinking of having their homes retrofitted can find a reputable person to undertake this easily and quickly?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

My noble friend’s reference to local authorities reminds me that the other part of the scheme, the local authority delivery scheme, is working extremely well. We are working closely with a number of local authorities. He is right that we need to invest more in training. We have awarded more than £7.5 million of funding to support the development of new and better retrofit technologies.

COP 26

Lord Lucas Excerpts

Wednesday 18th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I am sorry if the noble Lord does not feel involved in the campaign, but parliamentarians, alongside members of the public, are all very welcome to get involved in all of these campaigns, because they require all of us to work together to achieve our aims.

[Lord Lucas (Con) [V]]

My Lords, as the original Question said, at the root of this there is a need to change our behaviours. Can the Minister tell me more about the Government’s plans to help us spend more of our holidays within the United Kingdom, rather than flying abroad? Much of our hospitality infrastructure has been gathering dust, to put it mildly, over the past 50 years as people have got used to Mediterranean and further-afield holidays. I am sure that the Government could find constructive ways to rapidly improve the level of our domestic tourism offering and ways of promoting it to our people.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

My noble friend is tempting me on to dangerous ground with this question. I agree with him that it would be great if more people took their holidays using some of the excellent facilities that are provided for in this country. Of course, however, people should also be free to go on foreign holidays if they wish to do so. One of the purposes of the plan is to see how we can spend more on areas such as decarbonising jet fuel so that aeroplanes in the future will not be so polluting. Hopefully, when we get to our ambitious targets, people will be able to take advantage of excellent holidays either in the UK or, if they wish to do so, abroad.

Science Research Funding in Universities (Science and Technology Committee Report)

Lord Lucas Excerpts

Wednesday 9th September 2020 Grand Committee

[Lord Lucas (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Patel, and his committee on an excellent report, to which I would like to add some side notes about the importance of keeping a healthy research culture in UK universities, particularly in those areas where the Government have some ability to influence it. That may particularly be through the REF but also through UKRI, OfS and other routes.

I turn my attention first to replicability. Even in physics, the subject that I studied, the level of replicability is well below what it ought to be. This is a matter of great concern to the Royal Society and others. We must insist on full publication of results, data and methods so that it is possible to accurately replicate what has been done. We must also up the status of replication; we must fund it properly and ensure that the scientists doing it find that it adds to their reputation. We must ensure that we are supporting publications which support reports of replication and do not just consider them too boring. I am encouraged that UKRI has recruited a head of research culture in the excellent Dr Francis Downey—mind you, if you search for her name on its site you find nothing. Perhaps she does not exist, but there are at least rumours of her existence.

Secondly, we must up the quality of statistics in UK research. Too many research publications have basic statistical errors in them. There is no reason for this; there is a plethora of good statisticians and statistical organisations ready to help. All research institutions ought to insist on it.

Thirdly, we really need to move on better public access. I am delighted to see that UKRI is tied in with Plan S. However, to take our own situation, when we are asked to take political decisions on things such as the dangers of particulates or microplastics, or whether you are actually doing anything valuable if you recycle glass with paper, let alone the efficacy of vaccines, we need to have access easily to the truth in a real, quality fashion. We should not be party to a system that hides the truth unnecessarily.

Lastly, there is diversity of thought. When it comes to funding research, we should be prepared, in small quantities, to fund research that seems to challenge the very rules of nature. I would be quite happy to see us put a bit of money into EmDrive, cold fusion, or even into critical race theory. We must never allow our universities to get bound into dogma, in the way James Cook University in Australia has been in its persecution of Professor Peter Ridd, just because he was extremely rude about the quality of its Great Barrier Reef research. That ought to be welcomed; one ought to look for critics. Science ought to be a matter of trying to find people who disagree with you and trying to understand why they are wrong, not sacking and prosecuting them.

I am keen that we support UKRI in its interesting research that falls between silos. I shall be very interested to see whether the Government opt for an advanced research projects agency going elephant hunting for big ideas, or whether they will follow my noble friend and kinsman Lord Ridley’s excellent book How Innovation Works and treat innovation as something that happens in lots of small diverse places, rather than large leaps into the unknown. That is a pretty good formula for Lords reform, but it also brings us back to where I started on the importance of having replicable-based science on which to advance.

Small and Medium-sized Enterprises: Public Procurement Contracts

Lord Lucas Excerpts

Monday 7th September 2020 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler)]

Short questions, please.

[Lord Lucas (Con) [V]]

My Lords, could my noble friend please tell me what departments are doing to make sure that SMEs can get on the preferred list of companies—where departments use this—and that the buyers within those departments are rewarded for making the extra effort to deal with small suppliers and are not risking their own careers by doing so?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The noble Lord makes a very good point. We encourage all SMEs that are interested in bidding for public sector opportunities to use Contracts Finder, which lists all tenders over £10,000. SMEs can create an account to get email updates for opportunities that align with their business interests. Public sector contracts are, of course, awarded after a fair and open competition process and commercial buyers are encouraged to ensure that all tenders are suitable for SMEs

Scientific Advisory Group for Emergencies

Lord Lucas Excerpts

Tuesday 28th April 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

I agree. As I said in my Answer to the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton, SAGE is not a membership body. The number of participants varies from meeting to meeting. There have been over 100 participants in all of the 29 meetings that have taken place on the Covid pandemic. It is up to the Chief Scientific Adviser and the Chief Medical Officer to invite the appropriate academics and advisers to each meeting. The number and names of participants vary from meeting to meeting.

[Lord Lucas (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend agree that science is a matter of doubt, not certainty, and that it is therefore extremely important that the Government understand the way in which scientists have reached their conclusions, just as it is important that scientists understand in detail the way that the Government are thinking?

Taylor Review of Modern Working Practices

Lord Lucas Excerpts

Tuesday 11th July 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Prior of Brampton]

The noble Lord is right that the disparities in Sweden are smaller than in the US, the UK and other parts of the world. They are smaller but they are not non-existent. It is a big issue in the Scandinavian countries as well. We intend to address that through our industrial strategy. The second issue that the noble Lord touched on is that growth in productivity, in so far as there has been any, used to trickle down into the incomes of all people—everyone was brought up by improvements in productivity. That link seems to have been greatly weakened over the years, so that when there is growth, it goes to the top 10% and not to the 90%. The noble Lord is quite right that we need to look at that very carefully.

[Lord Lucas (Con)]

My Lords, one of the protections we offer workers is through employment agency legislation, but this legislation does not apply to many of the organisations that get gigs for gig workers. Do the Government intend to extend the protections of employment agency legislation to those who supply gigs?

[Lord Prior of Brampton]

I am not sure I can do that question justice. I would like to think about it and respond to my noble friend. Is he talking about gig workers supplied through employment agencies?

[Lord Lucas]

Agencies such as Upwork, for instance.

[Lord Prior of Brampton]

I will have to respond to my noble friend by letter.