Queen’s Speech

Lord Lloyd of Berwick Excerpts

Thursday 10th May 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

That is a very helpful suggestion. One way or another with two elected Houses, whatever is in the legislation on the respective powers, there will always be a need for procedures to deal with the situation when both Houses disagree with each other, particularly if both Houses claim equal legitimacy, as is likely to happen, and particularly if the upper Chamber were elected on a different system of voting where the arguments for legitimacy will be legion. The noble Lord is quite right to suggest that reconciliation machinery must be part of the package, but I do not think that that can substitute for absolute clarity about the respective powers and the role of both Houses if they were both elected.

The noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Saltaire, is widely liked and admired in your Lordships’ House. In his wind-up speech last week, he apologised for not answering all the points made, but he did not answer any of them. These points go to the heart of our debate. He was asked whether a second Chamber elected by proportional representation would not claim greater legitimacy than the Commons. He was silent. Asked about the applicability of the Parliament Acts, he was no more forthcoming. Instead, he said that the Government would set out their legal reasoning on the application of the Parliament Acts if a Bill were included in the Queen’s Speech. A Bill was included in the Speech. Will the noble Lord now tell me when the advice will be made available?

The advice must answer two questions. The first is on the use of the Parliament Acts in relation to a Lords reform Bill. The second is on their use more generally in application to an elected second Chamber. I remind the Minister that both my noble and learned friend Lord Goldsmith and the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, said that the drafters of the 1911 Parliament Act did not intend its provisions to apply in the event of a second Chamber being constituted on a popular basis.

On the question of cost, the Minister said that no estimate could be given because a final decision had yet to be made on the number of Members. However, there is nothing to stop the Government coming up with a series of different options based on different sizes.

The noble Lord, Lord Wallace, suggested that the primacy of the Commons was a wonderful obstacle against which one kicked. Of course it is, but primacy is at the heart of our constitutional arrangements. The noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, talked about involving conventions and of the House being more assertive, which I fully acknowledge; it is one reason why many people think that the House of Lords has become a more effective Chamber in the past 10 or 12 years. However, on the balance of power, the arguments between two elected Houses will be much greater than those caused by a non-elected House exercising a small degree of assertiveness.

[Lord Lloyd of Berwick]

Is it still the official position of the Labour Party that it favours a 100%-elected House? If so, how will it seek to solve some of the problems that the noble Lord mentioned?

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, we are in favour of a 100%-elected House. We debated hybridity last week. Our view on a mostly elected Chamber is that the 20% non-elected element would not feel confident about making a positive contribution in a House that would be much more political. One has only to think of what happened with hereditary Peers. I well remember, when my party was in government, that when we lost votes we counted up the votes of hereditary Peers, and if it turned out that we had lost because of their votes we made a great play of it. The same thing would happen with Cross-Benchers. They would be in an impossible position because it would be argued that because of non-elected Cross-Benchers the will of the elected majority in the second Chamber had been thwarted. In a non-elected House, I pay tribute to the great contribution of Cross-Benchers. However, a hybrid 80%-elected House would not work.

Procedure of the House (Proposal 1)

Lord Lloyd of Berwick Excerpts

Tuesday 8th November 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lloyd of Berwick]

We considered this question at very great length when we had the Select Committee on the Speakership of the House six years ago. My view then was, and still is, that intervention at Question Time is a job for the Leader of the House as leader of the whole House and not as a member of the Government. If the Leader is not present, then it would be a job for the Deputy Leader of the House as deputy leader of the whole House. It was never my view that it was a job for the government Front Bench and therefore I do not understand the terms of Proposal 1, which refers to the job being,

“currently performed by the Leader of the House or Government front bench”.

That is not the job that we conferred on the Leader of the House six years ago. To insert “Government front bench” at that point in the proposal seems either to beg the question or, at any rate, to muddy the waters.

The question for the House is quite simply this: have the present Leader of the House and his predecessors on this side of the House impartially performed the function that they were then given during the past six years? I believe that they have. My only criticism, if I may say so, of the present Leader of the House is that when everybody is shouting together to get in, he does not intervene quickly enough. It is very important that he should intervene as quickly as he can when that situation arises. If in future he does intervene quickly, I see no possible advantage in transferring the job from the Leader of the whole House to the Speaker and I see many disadvantages, some of which have already been mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Wakeham. Inevitably it will, in the end, lead to a loss of self-regulation.

[Lord Grenfell]

My Lords, I am not particularly happy with this proposal and never have been. My views have been somewhat confirmed by what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, has just said. However, I wish to take up the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Geddes, who has several times in recent times referred to the “slippery slope”. I simply do not buy this argument about the slippery slope for the following reason: in a properly self-regulated House, the House does not need to go anywhere it does not want to go. It has the power to say, “This far and no further”. Whatever changes might be made, they do not automatically mean that we are living in fear of a slide down a slippery slope because they can always be stopped.

My second point is that I am not very keen on trial periods. The trouble with a trial period is that the determination of whether that trial period has yielded positive or negative results is very difficult to judge and can be extremely contentious because we do not have clear criteria about how we judge whether they have been positive or negative. Making that determination could simply cause more problems for the House.

On the whole, I feel that the House works well enough with the system it has, provided, as the noble and learned Lord said, the Leader of the House and others on Front Benches take the responsibility necessary to make it work. If they do not, then you are inviting a tsunami of requests for some sort of reform which would probably in the end destroy the self-regulation of the House.

Public Confidence in the Media and the Police

Lord Lloyd of Berwick Excerpts

Wednesday 20th July 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, the noble Lord, with all his experience as seven years as Met commissioner, will know all about police morale. Clearly, everything that has happened in recent months—particularly in the past few days—will cast a long shadow. I think that the noble Lord is right to say that we need to find a way of bringing these threads together. Whether that is through a royal commission, I am less certain. We need the inquiries to get going, particularly that of Lord Justice Leveson and the police inquiries, to begin to see some of the fruits of their labour, and then take longer-term decisions. Perhaps I may echo what the noble Lord, Lord Dear, said; we should not make knee-jerk reactions, but consider with care the results of these inquiries.

[Lord Lloyd of Berwick]

My Lords—

[Baroness Scotland of Asthal]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, this is an extremely good point and one which is well taken by the Government.

[Lord Lloyd of Berwick]

My Lords, my point is a very short one and it is simply to add to something said by the noble Lord, Lord Dholakia. Surely it would be better simply to leave it to Lord Justice Leveson and his panel to decide in what order they will take the various matters into which they are inquiring and not divide them up into part one or part two. It seems to me a pointless exercise. Why not leave it to Lord Justice Leveson?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I understand. There are so many people inside and outside Parliament who wish to know more as quickly as possible and to take a view on how we should progress, but I very much agree with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick. Everyone says that Lord Justice Leveson is a man of exceptional integrity and intelligence; having asked him to do the job we should allow him to get on with it and produce the result.

Phone Hacking

Lord Lloyd of Berwick Excerpts

Wednesday 13th July 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I can readily agree with that. It will look at the widest range of media matters.

[Lord Lloyd of Berwick]

My Lords, I very much welcome the appointment of Lord Justice Leveson to chair the inquiry. There could not, in my view, have been a better choice. I am also very glad that there is to be one inquiry instead of two and that it is to be a judicial inquiry under Lord Justice Leveson. I am a little concerned about the nature of the inquiry and the order of events. The Statement gives the impression that the two parts of the inquiry are to be considered, in a sense, the wrong way around. Surely the urgent matter for inquiry is the conduct of the News of the World—a purely factual inquiry. Would it not be better for the inquiry to complete that aspect of the task before turning to the much more general question of press regulation in the future?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, the inquiry, as the noble and learned Lord pointed out, will be a single judge-led inquiry, with the support of a panel, but it will be divided into two parts. The first part will look at media ethics and practice. The panel will be drawn from experts in the media, in the police, in government, and so on. We hope that the inquiry will report within 12 months. The second part of the inquiry, as the noble and learned Lord pointed out, will look at the unlawful activity and improper behaviour that has come to our attention, but it will be a post-criminal investigation inquiry held once all the court processes have been completed. The noble and learned Lord will be more aware than I am of the need to avoid interference by the judge-led inquiry with the criminal process and very possible court processes.

Draft House of Lords Reform Bill

Lord Lloyd of Berwick Excerpts

Tuesday 7th June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

The Clegg committee met nine times between May and December last year before the draft Bill and the White Paper were brought forward last month.

I hope that, having heard this, the noble Lord, Lord Cunningham, will feel that he has had a good outing on the subject and that he is confident, as I am, that the Joint Committee will look at these matters. We can leave it up to the Joint Committee to decide whether it can meet the deadline of the end of February next year.

[Lord Lloyd of Berwick]

If this matter is to be put to a vote—I do not know whether it will be—it is important that we should know what it is we are voting on. As I understand the amendment, it is to be an instruction that the joint body should “take account” of something. To my mind it is inconceivable that the Joint Committee will not take account of noble Lords. Again, it is inconceivable. So what are we worried about?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I think that we have had a useful debate because for the past few weeks there has been an air of controversy over what the conclusions of the report of the noble Lord, Lord Cunningham, meant when they were initially published. But I agree with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, that the amendment to the Motion is not necessary. I therefore invite the noble Lord, Lord Cunningham, to respond and, I hope, to withdraw his amendment.

Libya and the Middle East

Lord Lloyd of Berwick Excerpts

Monday 28th February 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lloyd of Berwick]

My Lords, the Leader of the House referred to the Government having revoked Colonel Gaddafi's immunity as head of state. Can he tell us a little more about how that has been done? Will the revocation operate retrospectively and have any other Governments taken the same step? It sounds like a sound step if it can be done and perhaps other Governments should be encouraged to do the same.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, it has been done. I gather that it is a matter of state action that any Government can choose to take and the Government have so chosen. I understand that other countries have done something similar, but I cannot name which ones. As for the action being retrospective, I am not sure that it is important that it should be retrospective, but the noble and learned Lord may have been making a clever legal point that at the moment I have missed.

[Lord Lloyd of Berwick]

No.

[Lord Strathclyde]

I am glad to hear that the noble and learned Lord say no.

Again, it is part of putting pressure on the regime and senior supporters of the regime including looking at the role of the International Criminal Court. It should complete its investigations so that we can bring this truly appalling situation to an end as quickly as possible.

Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill

Lord Lloyd of Berwick Excerpts

Monday 15th November 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Grocott]

My Lords, I listened to the Leader of the House many times when he was Leader of the Opposition and was often almost seduced by his oratory. However, that was not the case on this occasion and I do not think that it was a speech that he will be entirely thrilled about, because it was based almost entirely on suggesting that my noble and learned friend’s argument was spurious, shallow, pointless and simply and avowedly party-political. The noble Lord is nodding, so he is obviously confirming that. I want to comment initially on two points that he made, which are important considerations for the rest of us during this debate.

The noble Lord said that we know “that this Bill is on a tight timetable”. In other words, it has been guillotined quite severely in the Commons; that; of course, is what he hopes to be able to achieve in the Lords. I simply ask him: who is responsible for this Bill being on a tight timetable? The Government have made that decision in the full light of all the information. It is also, presumably, the reason why the Government say that it was not even possible to have pre-legislative scrutiny on this huge constitutional Bill—one which I think the party leader of the noble Lord, Lord McNally, has described as being part of the most important reforms since 1832, with characteristic understatement. Your Lordships need not worry; I am coming to hybridity. I am sure that the noble Lord will deal with that as seriously as I am dealing with the comments that he has been making.

The noble Lord enunciated what I thought a unique constitutional principle—at least as far as I have heard in this House; it was an astonishing one to come from the Leader of the House—in which it is not this House’s business to consider issues which have not been voted on or considered in the other place. He has commented on it enough times to make me realise that this means that large swathes of business under this coalition Government will not be possible for us to discuss, because he knows perfectly well that in the other place large sections of business are frequently not discussed and not voted upon. That is due to timetabling, which obviously took place under the previous Government as it does under this one. But please let us not pretend that he is making a serious constitutional argument that we must not consider it ourselves because it has not been considered by the other place.

I come to a severely practical point on the issue of hybridity, which was partly touched upon in an earlier exchange. No one could seriously argue that this particular clause of this particular schedule did not have characteristics of hybridity: “Preserved constituencies” is all it says. It then lists two constituencies with no explanation whatsoever of why they are preserved. I put this as a procedural point to the Leader of the House; I would have thought that there is clearly no reason on earth why any other constituency that wants to be added to the preserved list should not be able to make out a case for doing so. There are 648 parliamentary constituencies not covered in the preserved list. I shall certainly be trying to persuade this House that Telford is a constituency that should not be interfered with. It is a fast-growing town in the West Midlands, whose population changes much more rapidly than other constituencies. I put only that point to him. I will not develop the argument now—it would not be to the specific point of hybridity—other than to point out that these amendments, should they be tabled, could not possibly be grouped because the nature of the hybridity means that each case is individual and is unrelated to all the other constituencies. That is the basis on which these two constituencies are put down.

If, for the sake of argument, many amendments were tabled making the case for individual constituencies, it could not then be sustained, even if you concede that this clause is hybrid, that it was only a small part of the Bill, as some of the proponents of this not being a hybrid Bill are advancing. If, during the passage of the Bill through this House, other constituencies were added to the “exempt” clause, it would become a much bigger part of the Bill. I put it to the noble Lord the Leader of the House that these are serious questions; the case is certainly serious so far as I am advancing it. There is hardly a constituency in Britain that could not put its case on the basis of its boundaries, its communities and their relationship of the communities to each other.

In passing, we have to acknowledge that all local contribution to this by way of public inquiry, which has always been the case in the past, is being bypassed too; as the noble Lord the Leader of the House has told us, the Bill is under a very tight schedule. I acknowledge that there are different opinions on this, but it is not worthy simply to use the characteristics of normal parliamentary banter, which I enjoy as much as anyone else, in responding to a very serious Motion that my noble and learned friend has tabled which, on the noble Lord’s own admission, will delay the Bill, if that is what it does, by only a week and a half. On a matter of such constitutional importance—the Government’s words, not mine, although on this occasion I agree with them—should we really not be able to delay the Bill by that time in order to establish where there is clear and serious doubt, although the noble Lord will no doubt be able to persuade enough people to his point of view? We should at least have the opportunity of dealing with that question in the proper way by referring it in the way that my noble and learned friend Lord Falconer is suggesting.

[Lord Lloyd of Berwick]

In a brief intervention some months ago, I acquired an entirely undeserved and unsought reputation for being an expert on hybridity. On that occasion, though, I detected what I thought to be a serious issue that needed to be considered in the way described. On this occasion, I can detect no such issue. I have listened with great care to what the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, has said. I accept that the threshold is a low one, a point that I made on the previous occasion, but an elector’s interest in voting is not a private interest in the sense described in the Standing Orders. There can therefore be no question of treating one private interest differently from another. I am saying, only in a roundabout way, exactly what I believe the Clerk of the Public Bill Office has himself said in the letter that has been mentioned.

Before I am asked, I shall say that I have not read—

[Lord Harris of Haringey]

My Lords—

[Lord Lloyd of Berwick]

I am about to be asked, I think.

[Lord Harris of Haringey]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for giving way. Is it not the case that the act of voting is an individual one, yes, but as an elector you want wherever possible to be with a community of others? Surely the point about constituencies is that they are about communities. If you break up communities that are naturally together, that has severe consequences for the interests of all the individuals who make up that electorate.

[Lord Lloyd of Berwick]

Of course communities matter. I yield to no one on that view but we are talking here about the specific question of whether the right to elect is itself a private interest, as described in the Standing Orders.

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton]

The argument I am making, which is based on the Charlwood and Horley Bill from 1973, is that the interest lies in the group with which you vote. The argument over the Charlwood and Horley Bill was about whether you should be in Surrey or Sussex. It was not about an individual right to vote; it was about who you were grouped with. I earnestly ask the noble and learned Lord to consider his view on the Charlwood and Horley Bill and why I am not right in what I am saying. He is putting the argument back to me in a way that is not how I am putting it to him.

[Lord Lloyd of Berwick]

Of course I am; that is my purpose. I am putting it in the way it should be put. To my mind, whatever group the individual may be in, it remains his individual right. That is not a private right as described in the Standing Orders.

[Lord Beecham]

Will the noble and learned Lord turn to the question of locality? What does “locality” mean if not what my noble and learned friend Lord Falconer of Thoroton and my noble friend Lord Harris referred to?

[Lord Lloyd of Berwick]

I am still on the question of whether the right to elect is a private right. That is the question. Unless it is, these so-called private rights are not private rights within the meaning of the Standing Orders.

[Lord Howarth of Newport]

Does the noble and learned Lord accept that the determination of the size of a constituency affects not only the right to vote but, subsequently, the nature of the relationship between constituents and their Member of Parliament? In the case of Orkney and Shetland, where there would be only 37,000, and that of the Western Isles, where there are only 22,000, would their local and private rights not be differently treated by a Bill which otherwise created constituencies of 76,000, plus or minus 5 per cent? Would it not mean that the relationship between the Member of Parliament and his or her constituents in these two constituencies was fundamentally different from that of the Member of Parliament to his constituents elsewhere? Does that not therefore indicate that local and private interests are differently treated by the Bill? In that case, have we not passed the low threshold? I remind the House of what the Speaker said in the 1962-63 Session:

“I accept the true position to be this, that if it be possible for the view to be taken that this Bill is a Hybrid Bill it ought to go to the examiners. There must not be a doubt about it”.—[Official Report, Commons, 10/12/62; col. 45.]

Have we not cleared the low threshold?

[Lord Lloyd of Berwick]

I have already dealt with the threshold point. I accept and have always accepted that the threshold is low, but in this instance I suggest respectfully to the House that the threshold has not been crossed. As to the rest of the noble and learned Lord’s argument, it seems to go much further than the simple point that I am trying to make, which has to do with the meaning of “private interest” in the relevant Standing Orders. On that, I find myself in complete agreement with the views expressed by the Clerk of Public and Private Bills. I expected to be asked whether I had read the opinion of the leading counsel, who appears to have expressed a different view. I have no doubt that if I had read that opinion I would be better informed than I am, but I am not altogether sure that I would necessarily be any wiser. Certainly, doing the best that I can, it seems that the Bill is not hybrid.

Intelligence and Security Services: Treatment of Detainees

Lord Lloyd of Berwick Excerpts

Tuesday 6th July 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

I thank the noble and learned Lord for his general welcome of the Statement. He clarified a view on Guantanamo Bay and I hope that he would not read anything into what I said as being far from the wording that he used, which is entirely appropriate.

On the inquiry being judicial, the noble and learned Lord will have plenty of experience on this and will understand the view that we have taken and the reasons for making the inquiry as it is. I very much welcome his endorsement of the three individuals who will lead the inquiry.

On the issue of clarity, one of the reasons for making this Statement is to try to give greater clarity in future for some of the decisions that are taken. For instance, there are no circumstances where we would authorise action, including receiving intelligence, in the knowledge or belief that torture would take place at the hands of a third party. If such a case were to arise, we would do everything that we could to prevent the torture from occurring. That is consistent with the absolute prohibition on torture and our values as a nation.

The reality is that, in most cases, countries do not disclose the sources of the intelligence that they share with us. However, the guidance leaves our partners in no doubt about the standards to which we adhere and the action that we will take if we suspect that intelligence has derived from the mistreatment of a detainee.

[Lord Lloyd of Berwick]

My Lords, I apologise to the House for missing the first few minutes of the Statement; I was in my room awaiting the announcement. I welcome all aspects of the Statement, particularly the decision to get to the bottom of what may have gone wrong in the past before looking to what ought to be done in the future. I welcome the appointment of Sir Peter Gibson as the chair of the inquiry. You could not have a better man for the job.

Does the Leader of the House agree that there is an almost exact precedent for the inquiry, as now contemplated, in the work that used to be done by the Law Commission, of which I once had the honour to be the chairman? If the procedure that we had in the Law Commission is followed, I hope that the inquiry will not go wrong. Does the noble Lord agree that the scope of the present inquiry will be altogether different from that of the Saville inquiry and that there is no reason at all to believe that this inquiry, like the old Law Commission inquiries, should not be completed within a year?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I thank the noble and learned Lord for what he has said. He says it from a most authoritative position, with all his experience in reviewing terrorism legislation in the past. I am insufficiently well versed in these matters to know whether or not the Law Commission presents an exact precedent but, if the noble and learned Lord says that it does, I am happy to accept it. I also agree with him—this is important for those who might make comparisons with the Saville inquiry—that the scope of this inquiry is very different from that laid out by Saville. As we said at the time, we do not wish to see any more open-ended inquiries of that style. Again, I agree with the noble and learned Lord: there is no reason why it should not be able to complete within the next 12 months.

Local Government Bill [HL]

Lord Lloyd of Berwick Excerpts

Tuesday 8th June 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lloyd of Berwick]

Is not the problem—I am not sure that the noble Baroness has dealt with it yet—that the advice given by the Public Bill Office was given, as I understand it, before it had seen the evidence to which the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, referred? If there is, as a result of that evidence, any real doubt—a prima facie case, or whatever you like to call it—the Bill ought to go the Examiners. That is perfectly clear.

[Baroness Hanham]

My Lords, my understanding is that the Public Bill Office has not changed its view as a result of that advice, and I intend to proceed on that basis. Before I sit down, I should make it clear that if the noble Lord decides to put his Motion to a vote, I will have no option but to ask the House to oppose it as, were he to succeed, it would delay the passage of the Bill and clarity for the future of the local authorities concerned, which need a decision.