Lord Strathclyde
That it is expedient that a Joint Committee of Lords and Commons be appointed to consider and report on the draft House of Lords Reform Bill presented to both Houses on 17 May (Cm 8077), and that the committee should report on the draft Bill by 29 February 2012.
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Strathclyde)
My Lords, given that my Motion has attracted an amendment, I should say a few words about it. The Motion proposes a Joint Committee on the draft House of Lords Reform Bill published last month, and does so in the usual way by referring the draft Bill and accompanying White Paper in their entirety to the Joint Committee for its consideration.
The noble Lord, Lord Cunningham of Felling, may shortly move his amendment and I have no desire to pre-empt him, but I hope that it is helpful to the House if I point out that Clause 2 of the draft Bill provides that:
“Nothing in the provisions of this Act … affects the primacy of the House of Commons, or … otherwise affects the powers, rights, privileges or jurisdiction of either House of Parliament, or the conventions governing the relationship between the two Houses”.
The White Paper includes several paragraphs on the powers of the two Houses, essentially providing,
“no change to the constitutional powers and privileges of the House once it is reformed, nor to the fundamental relationship with the House of Commons, which would remain the primary House of Parliament”.
It goes on to say:
“The Government believes that clause 2 of the draft Bill is the best way of achieving this because it does not attempt to codify the existing powers of the Houses in legislation but rather, as now, accepts that the position is a matter of convention”.
That, of course, is the Government’s view, but as I have already made clear, the Joint Committee will be able to consider each and every matter raised in the Government’s White Paper and may reach its own conclusions.
There is, therefore, nothing in the Joint Committee's remit to prevent it from doing exactly as the noble Lord, Lord Cunningham, proposes. I cannot possibly second-guess how the committee will choose to approach its work, but I imagine that it would wish to have regard not only to the conclusions of the report chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Cunningham, but to the exchange we are having today and to related points that will no doubt be raised in the debate later this month.
Therefore, although I am extremely grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Cunningham, for tabling his amendment, which concerns something which has the potential of being quite a controversial matter during the discussions in the Joint Committee, I hope that the House and he himself will accept that the amendment is unnecessary. I beg to move.
Amendment to the Motion
Lord Wright of Richmond
My Lords, I just want briefly to say that, as the sole surviving Cross-Bench Member of the committee chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Cunningham, I strongly support his amendment. If he decides to seek the opinion of the House, I shall vote for it.
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, this might be a good time for me to reply. My purpose in laying out the Government’s view at the outset was to try to pour some oil on troubled waters, a task in which I spectacularly failed. A number of key issues have been raised and perhaps I could deal with them. This is all part of an important debate and, as one or two noble Lords have rightly recognised, we are due to have a two-day debate starting on 21 June. I urge noble Lords to prepare their speeches for then. Therefore, we do not need to extend this debate much longer.
First, on timing, the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, rightly asked why, if we are not going to second-guess the Joint Committee, we are directing it as to by when it should report. I can tell the House that in a government Motion to set up a Joint Committee it is entirely normal practice that the Committee should be given a target date. It is equally entirely normal practice—in the past few weeks I have moved Motions to this effect—that, if the view of the Committee is that it needs more time, it is given that time, which would of course apply in respect of this Joint Committee.
Secondly, on membership, this Joint Committee cannot be set up without the agreement of this House to the names put forward. I know that different parties, including the Cross-Benches, have different processes as to how names are chosen, but those names will be agreed by the House. I fully expect them to reflect the wide variety of views that exist across the House, as I expect will be reflected in the names that come from another place. This will be a Joint Committee of 26 people, 13 from each House, including a Bishop and Cross-Benchers. In setting up this body, it would be inconceivable for it to have a unanimous view right at the very start.
Thirdly, and perhaps more importantly, is the question raised by the noble Lord, Lord Cunningham, and by the noble Lords, Lord Reid and Lord Richard, about the amendment in particular. I rather agree with the noble Lord, Lord Richard. It would be a most odd Joint Committee on this subject if it were not to look carefully at all the clauses, including Clause 2, or to look at the paragraphs in the White Paper that have a view on the subject of the primacy of another place and of the conventions that bind us.
The noble Lord, Lord Reid, said that this amendment would issue an instruction. In itself, that would not be useful if the Joint Committee chose to ignore it or not to take it sufficiently seriously. It would be far better for us to trust the Joint Committee to use its innate wisdom. The noble Lord, Lord Cunningham, characteristically offered a very good critique not only of the Bill but of the White Paper. Of course, we will hear much more of that in the debate to come. But overwhelmingly, I hope that the noble Lord and the House are satisfied that there is no intention on the part of the Government to railroad this Joint Committee to come to a preconceived conclusion. That would not be an easy thing to do, not least when we look at the history of the past 12 months and the committee that was brought together under the excellent chairmanship of the Deputy Prime Minister. He brought together all the parties, and they came to a consensus on reform of the House of Lords.
Lord Clinton-Davis
Is the Leader of the House saying, in other words, that the amendment moved by my noble friend Lord Cunningham is acceptable?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, what I am saying is that, first, it is unnecessary, and secondly, everything in the noble Lord’s amendment will, I am sure, be taken into account by the Joint Committee.
Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall
Will the noble Lord tell the House how many times the committee led by the Deputy Prime Minister met in order to arrive at the conclusions that are now represented in the White Paper and the draft Bill?
Lord Strathclyde
The Clegg committee met nine times between May and December last year before the draft Bill and the White Paper were brought forward last month.
I hope that, having heard this, the noble Lord, Lord Cunningham, will feel that he has had a good outing on the subject and that he is confident, as I am, that the Joint Committee will look at these matters. We can leave it up to the Joint Committee to decide whether it can meet the deadline of the end of February next year.
Lord Lloyd of Berwick
If this matter is to be put to a vote—I do not know whether it will be—it is important that we should know what it is we are voting on. As I understand the amendment, it is to be an instruction that the joint body should “take account” of something. To my mind it is inconceivable that the Joint Committee will not take account of noble Lords. Again, it is inconceivable. So what are we worried about?
Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I think that we have had a useful debate because for the past few weeks there has been an air of controversy over what the conclusions of the report of the noble Lord, Lord Cunningham, meant when they were initially published. But I agree with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, that the amendment to the Motion is not necessary. I therefore invite the noble Lord, Lord Cunningham, to respond and, I hope, to withdraw his amendment.