Budget: Taxes and Borrowing

Debate between Lord Livermore and Baroness Penn

Monday 4th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Lord Livermore) (Lab)]

My Lords, the Budget raises taxes by £40 billion as we repair the public finances and rebuild our public services. Borrowing falls from 4.5% of GDP this year to 2.1% of GDP by the end of the forecast. The current budget moves into surplus from 2027-28, ensuring that we do not borrow to fund day-to-day spending.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, after delivering the biggest tax-raising Budget on record, the Chancellor rightly said at the weekend that she was wrong to rule out those tax rises ahead of the election. She also said that this Budget

“wiped the slate clean … set the spending envelope for the remainder of this Parliament”,

and that

“we don’t need to increase taxes further”.

Will the Minister repeat the Chancellor’s reassurances today and rule out any further tax rises in future Budgets, or should we not believe what the Chancellor has said this time round either?

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

We had to take some very difficult decisions in the Budget. They were the right decisions to clear up the mess that we inherited from the party opposite, to rebuild the NHS after years of neglect, to choose investment and not decline, and to keep our promises to working people. However, the noble Baroness is absolutely right and of course I agree with what the Chancellor said. This was a very significant Budget, because of the need to repair the public finances and rebuild our public services simultaneously. We have now wiped the slate clean, meaning we never have to do a Budget like this again. The noble Baroness asks about tax, and I point out that we have kept every single promise that we made on tax. Her Government, when she was a Treasury Minister, froze income tax thresholds, costing working people nearly £30 billion. We could have extended that but we chose not to.

Authorised Push Payment Fraud Performance Report

Debate between Lord Livermore and Baroness Penn

Tuesday 14th November 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, I believe that an alternative route forward is already in train: the mandatory reimbursement requirement, which will apply across all payment service providers. As I said, there is currently a voluntary approach in place; a mandatory approach will ensure a much more consistent response for consumers when it is introduced next year.

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

My Lords, the latest data from the Payment Systems Regulator shows that instances of payment card and remote banking fraud have fallen by 9% and 29% respectively, driven by greater use of much stronger customer authentication interventions. However, use of such initiatives varies markedly across the financial services sector. Does the Minister believe there is a case for stronger guidance on how digital banking platforms should make use of such technology?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

The noble Lord is absolutely right that we need to use a range of tools to respond to fraud taking place through banking. The regulator does have the powers in place to ensure that payment services firms are taking the appropriate action, not just on reimbursement but to prevent the fraud in the first place.

Alternative Investment Fund Managers Regulations 2013

Debate between Lord Livermore and Baroness Penn

Monday 13th November 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I reassure my noble friend that the FCA is indeed engaged in this issue, as are the Government. There are many problems with inherited EU financial services rules and we have set out a programme of work to look at how we can repeal them and replace them with UK-appropriate measures. These include the PRIIPs rules, which affect this issue, and the Government have set out our plans to repeal these measures and replace them with FCA rules, as soon as possible.

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

My Lords, the primary duty of the FCA is to deliver stability, but the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, raising this issue today is not the first time that concerns have been raised about apparent instability in certain markets. Does the Minister remain satisfied that the FCA has the tools and expertise it needs to uphold its duties, and is she confident that it has the capacity to meet its growing workload?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, I do remain satisfied and I believe that the Financial Services and Markets Act, which passed through this House earlier this year, updates the tools and framework for the FCA to do its job, now that we have left the EU.

Home Office: ODA-funded Support

Debate between Lord Livermore and Baroness Penn

Tuesday 5th September 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I will happily take the noble Lord’s point and make it to my noble friend and the government department. In addressing the point that maybe he was making, as I said, the Illegal Migration Act represents a vital step forward in the Government’s plans to tackle illegal migration. I reassure noble Lords that we will continue to report all ODA, consistent with OECD and DAC rules, and we will continue in our commitment to spending 0.5% until we can return to 0.7% when fiscal circumstances align. We keep all our ODA spending forecasts under review to deliver that, and will be closely looking at the evolution of eligible asylum spending as the Illegal Migration Act is implemented.

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

My Lords, we are all familiar with the Government’s decision to purchase the “Bibby Stockholm” barge and to move asylum seekers on to it even though it was not fit for habitation. Can the Minister confirm whether that purchase was made, in whole or in part, using any ODA funds? Does she consider that purchase to represent good value for money, and are any other such purchases planned?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I reassure the noble Lord that all spending is done in line with DAC rules, and I can report back to him on the specific point about that spending. However, when it comes to looking at accommodation solutions for asylum seekers, we are driven by looking at what represents good value for money for the taxpayer. Accommodating asylum seekers in hotels is absolutely not good value for money, and we will continue to look at different solutions to help to accommodate those to whom we have an obligation.

Bank Accounts

Debate between Lord Livermore and Baroness Penn

Wednesday 19th July 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

FCDO colleagues have not raised this with me but if there is an issue, I will be more than happy to sit down with other departments and discuss what we can do about it.

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

My Lords, access to financial services should of course never be determined by a person’s political views, but just as those with assets of £1 million should not unduly be denied a bank account with Coutts & Co., so those with substantially less should not be denied access to basic banking services. Yet the Financial Conduct Authority estimates that more than 1 million people in the UK have no bank account and one in four people will experience financial exclusion at least once in their lives. The Government recently overturned Labour’s amendment to the Financial Services and Markets Act to require the FCA to have regard to financial inclusion. Do the Government now regret that decision?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, I absolutely agree about the importance of financial inclusion, and we have seen significant progress on that issue in recent years, including through establishing provision of basic bank accounts. That means that anyone in society, whatever their means, has the right to access banking, and we will continue to promote access through our work on financial inclusion.

Consumer Rights Act 2015 (Enforcement) (Amendment) Order 2023

Debate between Lord Livermore and Baroness Penn

Wednesday 12th July 2023 Grand Committee

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

My Lords, we support this measure. I shall reiterate a couple of facts mentioned by the Minister. Smoking is the biggest cause of preventable death in the UK. It accounts for some 76,000 deaths each year, with half of all smokers dying of a smoking-related illness. It is estimated that smoking costs NHS England over £2.5 billion every year. Alongside high-level policy, such as the smoking ban introduced by the last Labour Government in the Health Act 2006, evidence suggests that high duty rates have had a positive impact by reducing the number of people who start smoking and increasing the numbers seeking to cut down and quit.

With 21% of cigarettes sold in the UK currently illicit, clearly the illegal trade in tobacco products undermines these important contributions to public health. It deprives the Exchequer of vital revenue and reduces the deterrent effect of high duty rates. We therefore support harsher penalties for those who seek to avoid paying such duties and commensurate powers for trading standards to tackle those who procure, supply and distribute illegal tobacco and profit from the illegal trade.

I would like to ask the Minister three questions. First, she mentioned that the combined application of fines, powers to seize illicit products and the new sanctions is designed to have a deterrent effect on retail outlets and street-level distributors. This point was also made by the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer. Are there any plans to communicate these powers to potential offenders so that the deterrent effect might be enhanced? Secondly, where illicit product is sold through retail outlets, what data exists on whether the owner of a retail outlet is aware of such sales versus illicit sales carried out surreptitiously by an employee, and therefore whether enforcement measures are always correctly targeted? Finally, what communication, co-operation and co-ordination exists between HMRC and the Border Force to tackle the supply of illicit product at source?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, I thank both noble Lords for their contribution to this short debate. I am afraid that the speed of our debate might mean that I will need to write to them regarding some of their questions. I will address the ones I can.

The noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, asked whether the cost of living pressures have caused an increase in the illicit market. My understanding is that there has been a negligible increase in it. Some smokers are switching, for example, to hand-rolling tobacco from ready-made cigarettes to save money. That is the kind of behaviour shift we are seeing.

As for when we will be implementing the provisions provided for in the two statutory instruments, trading standards will start work on 20 July when the tobacco tracking and security SI commences.

Regarding the types of tobacco that will be covered, I can say that the tobacco track and trace system applies to only cigarettes and hand-rolling tobacco, but this makes up approximately 97% of the tobacco market. The system and the penalties are intended to be extended to other tobacco products, such as cigars, cigarillos and shisha, but that will be from May 2024. There is a plan to extend over the remaining market.

Both the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, and the noble Lord, Lord Livermore, asked about the deterrent effect. We should see a decrease in the current tax gap for tobacco duty. We anticipate that we will see an increase in compliance activities undertaken by trading standards. The visibility of businesses selling illicit products being penalised will have the deterrent effect that both noble Lords asked about.

Tackling this issue at the smaller scale, where trading standards visits premises—the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, also talked about links to more organised crime—will continue to be a focus. Activity in that area is driven by HMRC, which is the delivery partner, rather than trading standards.

The noble Baroness asked whether outlets engaged in underage sales will be targeted under this measure. My understanding is that, in each local area, trading standards looks at the priorities for targeting enforcement activity. It has powers when it comes to underage sales. The effect of this SI is to ensure that trading standards can make use of the enforcement mechanisms under track and trace, in addition to its powers on underage sales, plain packaging and other consumer issues. The priorities for trading standards visits are set locally, rather than nationally.

The noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, asked about e-cigarettes and vapes. Track and trace does not apply to them but, as she may be aware, we have a call for evidence open at the moment that focuses particularly on the use of vapes among underage consumers or children, which will look at that issue more closely.

On the question of the public health benefits of this measure versus revenue protection, they are mutually reinforcing. Illicit tobacco can have health implications, because it is not subject to the same health and safety regulations as legitimate products. It has been found to contain arsenic, mould and rat droppings, for example, so that issue is at play. The availability and affordability of tobacco products also impacts on smoking rates, which is why the duty that we have in place helps to reinforce our strategy to stop smoking. Making sure that people do not engage in the illicit market also reinforces that strategy.

I will not pretend that protecting the duty owed to the UK Government is not an important objective for HMRC; it is one that we continue to support. However, it mutually reinforces the wider ambition for England to become smoke-free by 2030. As I said, the Department of Health and Social Care announced a package of measures to cut smoking rates, acknowledging that we need to go further in this space. They include expanding access to new treatments, rolling out a national incentive scheme to help pregnant women quit, and using a new approach to health warnings.

I am conscious that I have not answered all noble Lords’ questions, but I undertake to follow up in writing. There is broad support for the SI, but I am sure that the answers to those additional points will help your Lordships to understand how it will have the impact that we all hope it will have. I therefore commend this instrument to the Committee.

Gross Domestic Product: Wales and the UK

Debate between Lord Livermore and Baroness Penn

Thursday 6th July 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

The classification of these matters is for the ONS, and I shall get the ONS to write to the noble Lord.

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

My Lords, the Government’s approach to levelling-up funding has forced local authorities throughout the UK to compete in a process that lacks any published criteria. In the second round of allocations earlier this year, local communities across each of the four nations of the UK, including Wrexham, Moray, Bolsover and Belfast, each had bids rejected without any public explanation. Ahead of the third round of levelling-up funding, will the Minister work with ministerial colleagues, the devolved Governments and local authorities to improve the transparency of the bidding process so that cities, towns and villages across the UK can have access to funding that is both fair and seen to be fair?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

Just to reassure the noble Lord with regard to Wales, in the first two rounds of the levelling-up fund, £330 million has been invested so far. That exceeds the commitment that 5% of those funds would be invested in Wales, but we always seek to improve our processes around those issues, and I shall happily commit to working with colleagues in the Department for Levelling Up to make sure that we build on the success that we have had so far with this fund.

Corporate Profits: Inflation

Debate between Lord Livermore and Baroness Penn

Thursday 29th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, I have to disagree with the noble Lord. The higher rates of inflation that we see are seen in countries across the world. I believe there are nine EU countries with higher headline rates of inflation than the UK, and more than half of EU countries have higher rates of core inflation than the UK. The noble Lord talked about the importance of productivity to our future economic well-being; I could not agree more. We need greater investment to drive greater productivity, and we would not see that with the kind of policies advocated by the noble Lord, Lord Sikka, such as windfall taxes and other measures that would deter investment from our country.

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

My Lords, to follow up on the Minister’s answer to my noble friend, as she said the IMF has described so-called greedflation as a Europe-wide phenomenon, yet despite the Prime Minister promising to halve inflation, Britain continues to be an outlier. The UK has the highest inflation in the G7. Last month, core inflation increased to 7.1% in the UK—a 31-year high—while in other advanced economies, including in the eurozone and the US, it has started to fall. The Government often argue, as the Minister has this morning, that responsibility for the UK’s persistently high inflation lies in global factors, but do these figures not tell us that it actually lies much closer to home?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I am afraid I am going to have to disagree with the noble Lord. I will not cite again the figures I gave to the House a moment ago. We have heard about the IMF in this Question today. Despite the challenges we face after the pandemic and Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, the IMF has noted that the UK has taken decisive and responsible steps to tackle inflation, and all major forecasters expect inflation to fall this year. We cannot be complacent about that, and that is why this Government’s number one priority is to bring down inflation.

Inheritance Tax: Cohabiting Siblings

Debate between Lord Livermore and Baroness Penn

Tuesday 20th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, I am happy to look at the specific circumstance that my noble friend raises. I do not think the Government have an old-fashioned view of how families are formed in modern times; that is why the benefits of being able to pass on inheritance, if you are married, is also extended to those who are civilly partnered.

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

At the last Budget, the Government abolished the lifetime limit on tax-free pension savings. In the middle of a cost of living crisis, this giveaway for the very wealthiest cost £1.2 billion and increased the value of a £2 million pension pot by some £250,000. It also opened up an inheritance tax loophole whereby it is now possible to accumulate unlimited sums within a pension fund and pass them on entirely free of inheritance tax. What assessment has the Treasury made of the number of very wealthy individuals who will now use pension funds as a vehicle for inheritance tax planning, and at what additional cost?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, I was disappointed that the party opposite did not support our changes to pensions, which were key for many public sector workers in respect of recruitment and retention for their posts. The primary purpose of a pension is to provide income or funds that individuals can draw on in retirement. If an individual dies before they get to use it for that purpose, we believe their beneficiaries should be able to have those funds, and that is why unspent pension pots do not normally form part of an individual’s estate. As the Chancellor said to the TSC after the Budget 2023, we will keep any changes to the lifetime and annual allowances under consideration and look at the impact.

Amendments of the Law (Resolution of Silicon Valley Bank UK Limited) (No. 2) Order 2023

Debate between Lord Livermore and Baroness Penn

Thursday 15th June 2023 Grand Committee

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

My Lords, in our debates on Report of the Financial Services and Markets Bill we discussed at great length the wider issues around ring-fencing. I said then that we fully support the steps taken by the Treasury, the Bank and the regulators in relation to Silicon Valley Bank UK. The system worked at pace to ensure that SVB UK could continue its operations.

Silicon Valley Bank UK serves a high concentration of life sciences and tech companies in this country, and those firms play an indispensable role in driving growth and innovation across our economy. We therefore recognise that granting an exemption to the ring-fencing regime for HSBC was necessary to guarantee the sale of SVB UK in exceptional circumstances.

However, I have three questions for the Minister. First, although it is welcome news that SVB UK will continue lending, it is clear that tech and life sciences firms need more options. What plans do the Government have to ensure that SVB UK is not the only way that such firms can access capital?

Secondly, the three conditions on SVB UK that have made this ring-fencing exemption possible appear to be sensible, but are there are any circumstances that could lead to additional conditions being imposed or to a reopening of the exemption in future?

Finally, the Government previously indicated that if parliamentary committees were to undertake an inquiry on SVB UK’s collapse or on wider issues with the banking sector, they would co-operate with that inquiry. Has there been any interaction on this matter, beyond March’s exchange of correspondence with the Commons Treasury Select Committee?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords for their contributions. Although I think we all agree that the outcome reached with regard to Silicon Valley Bank UK was a good one, there are important questions about the process by which it was achieved and its implications.

The noble Lord, Lord Davies of Brixton, asked about lessons learned and, specifically, whether the regime worked as expected or as provided for when it was designed. Under the special resolution regime, various tools and powers are available to the Bank, the PRA and HMT to stabilise a failing institution. To deploy them, the authorities must be satisfied that: the bank is failing or likely to fail, by considering a number of factors, such as the value of assets and the ability to meet liabilities, as the noble Lord mentioned; outside the stabilisation powers, action will not be taken to prevent the bank failing; the exercise of the power is necessary, having regard to the public interest; and the objectives of the regime would not be better met by winding up the bank. Any use of the power that would entail risks to public funds must also be approved by His Majesty’s Treasury.

In the case of SVB UK, we can say that the powers were indeed used in a way provided for by the Banking Act 2009. The Bank of England, as the resolution authority, determined that the use of the private sector purchaser tool produced the best outcome, having regard to the special resolution objectives. In particular, it ensured that SVB UK’s customers were fully protected. As the noble Lord noted, the Treasury was consulted by the Bank of England before the private sector purchaser tool was exercised, as is also required by the Banking Act.

As I said, the authorities have a range of tools and options to choose from when deciding how best to manage a failing financial firm and contingency plan for a range of different scenarios. In choosing between the resolution tools set out in the Banking Act 2009, the Bank of England and the Treasury work closely together. The Bank is the UK’s resolution authority and is responsible for executing all stabilisation options provided for under the special resolution regime, with the exception of the temporary public ownership option, which is the responsibility of the Treasury.

Financial Services and Markets Bill

Debate between Lord Livermore and Baroness Penn

Report stage
Tuesday 13th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

My Lords, the Payment Systems Regulator is now putting in place requirements to ensure more consumers will receive a refund if they fall victim to authorised push payment scams. This is very welcome. Many banks have already taken steps to make customers aware of the risk of scams, but the sophisticated nature of many such scams means there is a need for even stronger efforts to prevent fraud occurring in the first place. Not all of the detail is yet settled, with consultation on key aspects of the new scheme to follow later in the year, but we hope the Minister can give an indication of the levels of protection likely to be offered.

We welcome the tabling of Amendment 94 by the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, which we understand to be a probing text. As the new system beds in, it will be vital for banks and other financial institutions to collect data and share that with the regulator, in order to inform future changes to guidance and regulation. The amendment also proposes public reporting of data to enable consumers to see which institutions have a good or bad track record. This is an interesting idea and we look forward to hearing the Minister’s response on this specific point.

While APP scams fall within the financial services realm, anti-fraud initiatives cut across departments and legislation. That is why one of our priorities for the Online Safety Bill is to ensure robust media literacy provisions, so internet users are able to better identify which articles, websites or emails are legitimate. With a significant amount of financial fraud taking place online but with the limited scope of that Bill, we hope the Minister and her department will engage with the Online Safety Bill as it approaches Report stage. Scams cause a significant amount of emotional distress, as well as coming with financial costs, so we hope that the Government and the regulators will do everything possible to keep ahead of the curve.

[The Parliamentary Secretary, HM Treasury (Baroness Penn) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government and the Payment Systems Regulator recognise the importance of regular, robust data collection. This is crucial for monitoring the effectiveness of the reimbursement requirement and ensuring that firms are held accountable. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Vaux of Harrowden, for his considered engagement on this issue. I reassure noble Lords that the PSR has committed to half-yearly publication of data on authorised push payment scam rates and on the proportion of victims who are not fully reimbursed.

I can tell my noble friend Lord Naseby that a voluntary system is already in place and the PSR has already begun collecting data from the 14 largest banking and payment groups. The first round of transparency data is due for publication in October this year. The data that the PSR will publish includes the proportion of scam victims who are left out of pocket, fraud rates where the bank has sent customers’ money to a scammer, and fraud rates where the bank has hosted a scammer’s account. That means that, from October this year, the PSR will publish data for total fraud rates, both for sending money and receiving fraudulent funds, and reimbursement rates, on a twice-yearly basis for the 14 largest banking groups. This so-called league table will provide customers with the information they need to consider the relative performance of different banking groups on these metrics, and to factor that into their banking decisions.

Further to this data, once the reimbursement requirement is in place the PSR will use a range of metrics to monitor its effectiveness on an ongoing basis. These include the length of reimbursement investigations, the speed of reimbursements, the value of repatriated funds, the treatment of and reimbursement levels among vulnerable customers, and the number and value of APP scams. Data on appeals will be captured and reported by the Financial Ombudsman Service separately.

More broadly, the PSR will publish a full post-implementation review of the reimbursement requirement introduced by this Bill within two years of implementation. The review will assess the overall impact of the PSR’s measures for improving consumer outcomes. That does not mean it will not also consider the effectiveness of this measure on an ongoing basis. Indeed, more widely, the PSR will consider risks across different payment systems and, where necessary, address them with future action. This includes a commitment to work with the Bank of England to introduce similar reimbursement protections for CHAPS payments, and with the FCA in relation to on-us payments.

The PSR has been working closely with industry to develop effective data collection and reporting processes for its work on fraud. While the Government recognise the intention behind the noble Lord’s amendment, they do not consider it necessary or appropriate to prescribe specific metrics to be collected in primary legislation. I hope that, given the reassurance I have been able to provide today, he would agree with that point.

The noble Lord, Lord Livermore, spoke about the wider impacts of fraud and the duties that go beyond financial services companies or payment system providers in addressing those risks of fraud. That is being looked at through both the Government’s counter-fraud strategy and other Bills. He mentioned the Online Safety Bill. I disagree with his assessment of the measures in there. The measures that we have to tackle fraud in that Bill are a significant step-change in what we expect of companies in this space, and I think they will make a real difference. We are committed to working across all sectors to look at what more we could do in this space once we have implemented those measures and see how effective they are. I hope noble Lords are reassured by our commitments more broadly on this issue, and specifically by the fact that the PSR will be publishing data in this space once we have implemented the measures in the Bill.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

My Lords, we welcome the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, which has enabled this short and informative debate on the process for establishing a central bank digital currency. As technology develops and people’s habits change, it is vital that we keep pace. Therefore, the principle of a digital pound has much to commend it, although the arguments, implications and details clearly need to be properly worked through. The introduction of a digital pound would represent a significant step, and it is therefore right for the noble Lords, Lord Forsyth and Lord Bridges, to ask about the underlying processes, though it is a novel experience for the two noble Lords to be asking for commitments from this side of the House.

We very much welcome the clarification offered by the Chancellor in his letter to the noble Lord, Lord Bridges, and the Economic Affairs Committee that there would be primary legislation before a digital pound could be launched. We agree that this is an important safeguard.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friends Lord Forsyth and Lord Bridges for their leadership in the House on this important topic. I do not intend to relitigate the debates around the question of a central bank digital currency; I was one of the five or so noble Lords who debated the Economic Affairs Committee report in February, and I enjoyed it very much.

As we set out then and in Grand Committee, the Government have not yet made a decision on whether the digital pound should be introduced, and that remains the case. But we also take the view that a digital pound may be needed in the future, so further preparatory work is justified. Therefore, the Treasury and the Bank of England issued a joint consultation on a potential digital pound on 7 February. As that consultation paper makes clear, the legal basis for a digital pound will be determined alongside the consideration of its design.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

My Lords, we fully support the steps taken by the Treasury, the Bank and the regulators in relation to Silicon Valley Bank UK. The system worked at pace to ensure SVB UK could continue its operations. However, while we endorse the outcomes, legitimate questions have been asked about the ring-fencing exemption granted to HSBC and the potential long-term implications.

The arguments have been excellently outlined by the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, the most reverend Primate the Archbishop of Canterbury and my noble friend Lord Eatwell, and I will not repeat them now. The financial system has experienced much volatility in recent months, so preventing major changes to ring- fencing being made by secondary legislation is a sensible step and one that we believe the Commons ought to consider before this Bill goes on to the statute book.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, it has been over 10 years since the Independent Commission on Banking recommended important structural changes, including the introduction of ring-fencing for the largest UK banks, and the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards recommended the introduction of the senior managers and certification regime, or SMCR, to embed a culture of greater accountability and personal responsibility in banking. I pay tribute to the important work of these commissions and their lasting legacy in improving the safety and soundness of the UK’s financial system. Amendment 106 from the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, covers the ring-fencing and SMCR reforms.

In response to my noble friend Lord Trenchard, the legislation that introduced the ring-fencing regime required the Treasury to appoint an independent panel to review the regime after it had been in operation for two years. That independent review was chaired by Sir Keith Skeoch and concluded in March 2022. The review noted that the financial regulatory landscape has changed significantly since the last financial crisis. UK banks are much better capitalised and a bank resolution regime has been introduced to ensure that bank failures can in future be managed in an orderly way, minimising risks to depositors and public funds.

In the light of these considerations, the independent review concluded that changes could be made in the short term to improve the functionality of the ring-fencing regime while maintaining financial stability safeguards. In December, as part of the Edinburgh reforms, the Chancellor announced a series of changes to the ring-fencing regime that broadly follow the recommendations made by the independent review. The Treasury will consult later this year on those near-term reforms. The panel also recommended that, over the longer term, the Government should review the practicalities of aligning the ring-fencing and resolution regimes. In response, the Government published a call for evidence in March. This closed at the beginning of May and the Government are in the process of considering responses.

The noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, and other noble Lords referenced the resolution of Silicon Valley Bank UK, which was sold to HSBC on Monday 13 March. The Government and the Bank of England acted swiftly to facilitate the sale of SVB UK to HSBC after determining that action was necessary to protect depositors and taxpayers and to ensure that the UK’s world-leading tech sector could continue to thrive. To facilitate the sale, the Government made modifications to the ring-fencing regime that apply to HSBC only in relation to its acquisition of SVB UK.

It is critical that the Government have the necessary powers to act decisively to protect financial stability, depositors and taxpayers. The power under the Banking Act 2009 enables the Treasury to amend the law in resolution scenarios. Parliament gave the Treasury this power recognising the exceptional circumstances that can arise. However, I say to the noble Baroness that the changes made to the ring-fencing requirements are specifically in relation to the acquisition of SVB UK and should not be viewed as an indication of the future direction of government policy on ring-fencing. The Chancellor has been clear that, in taking any reforms forward, the Government will learn lessons from the crisis and will not undermine financial stability.

The core features of ring-fencing are set out in primary legislation, which generally may be amended only by primary legislation, so the Government are already constrained in one of the ways that this amendment seeks to ensure. In passing that legislation, Parliament delegated certain detailed elements of the regime to the Government to deliver through secondary legislation, given its technical nature and to allow it to evolve over time, where appropriate. Parliament also included clear statutory tests and objectives within the framework, which the Treasury and the PRA must satisfy when making changes to the regime. These statutory tests continue to reflect the underlying objectives and purposes of the regime. The Government are of the view that they remain appropriate and that no further constraints are necessary.

Turning to the SMCR, I can confirm to the House once more that the framework of the SMCR is set out in primary legislation, so it is already the case that significant amendments can be made only via primary legislation.

Let me also reassure the House that the Government continue to recognise the contribution of the SMCR in helping to drive improvements in culture and standards. The principles of accountability, clarity and senior responsibility that are emphasised by the PCBS report were reflected in the SMCR. We should take confidence from the findings of separate reports by UK Finance and the PRA, which both show that these principles are now more widely embedded in financial services than before the introduction of the regime.

The Economic Secretary made it clear to the Treasury Select Committee on 10 January that the purpose of the review was to seek views on the most effective ways in which the regime can deliver its core objectives. It is important to review significant regulation from time to time to ensure that rules remain relevant, effective in meeting their aims and proportionate to those aims. The Government are grateful to those who have submitted responses to the SMCR call for evidence. This information will help the Government, alongside the regulators, build a proper evidence base for identifying what, if any, reforms to the regime should be taken forward.

I hope that I have sufficiently reassured noble Lords that the Government remain committed to high standards of regulation, and to the important reforms introduced following the global financial crisis. Therefore, I ask the noble Lady, Baroness Kramer, to withdraw her amendment.

Financial Services and Markets Bill

Debate between Lord Livermore and Baroness Penn

Report stage
Thursday 8th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

My Lords, I join the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, in congratulating the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, on persuading the Government to adopt his amendments, albeit in a slightly different form. Given the amount of regulation coming forward in the months and years ahead, and with the expertise that your Lordships’ House can offer, it was crucial that the Government extended the Commons-only provisions to include a relevant Lords committee, and we very much welcome these government amendments.

We are also pleased that the Minister included the option of a Joint Committee, as this future-proofs the legislation in the event that colleagues in both Houses feel—as does my noble friend Lord Eatwell—that such a body would provide a better form of scrutiny of the regulator’s work. As my noble friend Lady Chapman mentioned in a previous group, and as the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, stressed further, there are still significant outstanding questions about the level of staff resource and expertise that relevant parliamentary committees will be able to draw on. Although these questions cannot be adequately addressed through the Bill, these concessions will at least safeguard the role of your Lordships’ House and enable conversations on resourcing to now proceed.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, the amendments in this group focus on further formalising the role of parliamentary scrutiny of the regulators. The Government agree with noble Lords that effective parliamentary scrutiny, in particular through parliamentary committees, has a critical role to play in improving the quality of regulation, as the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, said, and the performance of the regulators overall.

The Bill, through Clauses 36 and 47 and Schedule 7, seeks to ensure that the Treasury Select Committee has the information it needs to fulfil its role, by requiring the regulator to notify the TSC when publishing any relevant consultations. However, the Government have listened to the case made by noble Lords that the important role of this House was not adequately reflected by that approach. We have therefore tabled a series of amendments which will require the regulators to also notify the relevant Lords committee when they publish a consultation. These amendments will ensure parity between arrangements for the Commons and the Lords. They also provide that, if a Joint Committee is set up in future, the regulators will be required to notify it in the same way.

I am glad that my noble friend Lord Forsyth feels that these amendments fulfil the aims of his own; that is just as well, as his amendments in Committee and on Report formed the basis for the Government’s approach—that is no coincidence. I am grateful to him for the work that he has put in on this issue and for the time that he has taken to discuss these matters with the Government.

I am also grateful to my noble friend Lord Bridges and the noble Lord, Lord Hollick, for their engagement as the chairs of the current committees in this House that look at the work of the financial services regulators. When I spoke with them, they explained how the EAC and the IRC currently split some responsibility for financial services policy, an example of which was their recent work on LDI, where the EAC focused on the work of the Bank of England and the PRA and the IRC focused on that of the FCA. The Government’s amendments would allow for the two committees to continue with that approach if they wished to do so and for a different Lords committee to receive notifications of consultations from the FCA and the PRA. That structure would be for Parliament to decide.

I shall now pick up on the concern from noble Lords about having multiple committees looking at the same issues or the work of the same regulators. As I have said, the structure is a matter for Parliament, but currently we have the TSC in the Commons, and the Economic Affairs and the Industry and Regulators Committees in the Lords, which at the moment look at various aspects of the regulators’ work without duplicating each other or creating unnecessary burdens. Given the scale of powers for the regulators being established in this Bill, there will be more than sufficient work to go round different committees, and they have already proven themselves able to co-ordinate their work so that it is not duplicative.

We have heard, given the scale of the task before us, that there is concern about the resource made available to those committees. Committee structures and their resourcing will remain a matter for Parliament to decide and I have noted that noble Lords agree that that is the right approach. However, the Government recognise that the new model for financial services regulation will require a step change in this House’s scrutiny of the regulators and agree there must be suitable resource in place to support this. The Government will work with the usual channels and the House authorities in the appropriate way.

The Government have also heard concerns about the feedback loop when Parliament engages with regulatory proposals. There can often be a significant period of time between an initial consultation and the Bill’s existing provisions regarding the regulators’ engagement with parliamentary committees, and final rules being published. In particular, the Government recognise amendments tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, in Grand Committee, seeking to require the regulators to explain how parliamentary recommendations have been considered. The Government have therefore tabled Amendments 61 to 63, which require the regulators, when publishing their final rules, to explain how they have considered representations from parliamentary committees. This will ensure that the regulators provide a public explanation of how the views of parliamentary committees have been considered at the point when rules are made. This complements the existing requirement in Clauses 36 and 47, and Schedule 7, for the regulators to respond in writing to the chairs of committees that have made representations. This will ensure not only that regulators appropriately consider Parliament’s representations but that they set out publicly how they have done so.

The debates so far have shown that there is no single silver bullet to solve the problem of accountability. However, the Government are committed to creating an effective, overarching ecosystem in which the various different actors all play their roles in holding the independent regulators to account, ensuring high-quality financial services regulation in the UK. I am therefore grateful that my noble friend Lord Forsyth has said that he will withdraw his amendments, and I intend to move the Government’s amendments, based on those amendments, when they are reached.

Financial Services and Markets Bill

Debate between Lord Livermore and Baroness Penn

Report stage
Thursday 8th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

My Lords, I will be very brief so as not to detain the House further. Much of the substance of these issues was debated in the previous group on Tuesday evening, when I said that we strongly support the inclusion in the Bill of the new secondary objective for the regulators of international competitiveness and economic growth.

While the introduction of this secondary objective is a positive step, it is also important to ensure that it is meaningfully considered in the regulators’ decision-making. One of the main ways of doing this is by introducing some proven accountability measures to require the regulators to report on their performance against the objective. We therefore welcome the government amendments in this group, which will provide for initial reports on implementation of the competitiveness and growth objective, as well as other provisions that seek to improve regulatory accountability.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords for that constructive debate and I seek to engage only with the points that have been raised.

I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, that high regulatory standards are a key to London’s and the UK’s competitiveness as a financial centre. That is why the growth and competitiveness objective is a secondary objective to the primary objectives already in existence. However, high regulatory standards are not the only contributor to the growth and competitiveness of our economy or the sector. The new secondary objective, therefore, has an important role to play.

To address specifically the concern expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell, on day one of Report—the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, reflected on that again today—that the government amendments in this area somehow seek to elevate the secondary objective from its position within the hierarchy, that is not the case. These amendments reflect the fact that they are new objectives for the regulators and it is right that we have a focus on new objectives being added through the Bill to understand how they are being embedded into the operation of the regulators.

The noble Lords, Lord Vaux and Lord Davies of Brixton, asked how the reporting will take into account the fact that the objectives are secondary and how they will impact on the primary objectives. It is in the structure of the objectives that the growth and competitiveness objective can be delivered only in the context of achieving the primary objectives. That is built into the system. Each year, in addition to these two reports provided for in our amendment, there will be the annual report from the regulators looking at their delivery across all their objectives.

Several noble Lords asked whether having a report on this specific objective for just two years was the right approach. We think it strikes the balance between reflecting the new nature of these objectives and, over time, integrating them into the working of the regulators and reporting them in future annual reports. However, I point out to noble Lords that the Government have the power to specify certain matters to be addressed in those annual reports if we think it necessary in future. Under Clause 37, we also have the power to require further reporting on certain matters, so if the Government felt that further focus on the embedding of these new objectives was needed, there are powers in the Bill that would allow that to be drawn out.

My noble friends Lord Trenchard and Lord Ashcombe, and others, raised concerns about the need for specific metrics for reporting the regulators’ delivery against their objectives, as set out in my noble friend’s amendment. As noble Lords recognise, that is exactly the purpose of the Government’s current call for proposals. We do not think it is right to have the metrics in the Bill, because that would hinder the objectives that my noble friends are talking about, in terms of having the best possible set of metrics that can be adapted and updated to ensure that Parliament, industry and the Government get the information that they need on the regulators’ performance.

My noble friends Lord Holmes and Lord Ashcombe also drew attention to Amendment 92 in this group. I am aware that the speed and effectiveness with which the regulators process applications for authorisation remains an area of concern for both Parliament and industry, and the Government share those concerns. In December, the Economic Secretary to the Treasury wrote to the CEOs of the PRA and the FCA, setting out the importance of ensuring that the UK has world-leading levels of regulatory operational effectiveness. Publishing more and better data detailing the FCA and PRA’s performance is critical to meeting these aims. That is why, in their reply to the Economic Secretary’s letter, both CEOs committed to publishing more detailed performance data in relation to authorisation processes on a quarterly basis.

On 19 May, both the FCA and the PRA published their first set of enhanced quarterly metrics relating to their authorisations performance, including the average time taken to process applications. The reports demonstrate that the regulators, particularly the FCA, are making progress towards meeting service-level targets, while recognising that there are further improvements to be made on some measures. The Government will continue to monitor this data to assess performance and discuss continuing efforts to improve operational efficiency with the regulators.

I am glad to have heard the general support for the Government’s amendments in this group. As my noble friend Lord Holmes said, we drew heavy inspiration from his contributions in Committee, and those of other noble Lords.

Financial Services and Markets Bill

Debate between Lord Livermore and Baroness Penn

Report stage
Tuesday 6th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

My Lords, we do not support this group of amendments. We strongly support the inclusion in this Bill of the new secondary objective for the regulators on international competitiveness and economic growth. Its position as secondary in the hierarchy of regulators’ objectives is of course key. As a secondary objective, economic growth and international competitiveness will remain subordinate to the regulators’ primary objectives of preserving financial stability and protecting consumers. The UK’s reputation and success as a leading international financial centre depend on high standards of regulation, and a stable and independent regulatory regime. These high regulatory standards are a key strength of the UK system and its global competitiveness, so we would not support any moves towards a regulatory race to the bottom. That would negatively impact international confidence in the UK, making the UK less attractive to international businesses and investment.

The UK’s financial services industry plays a vital role in boosting economic growth and delivering skilled jobs in every part of the UK. Almost 2.5 million people are employed in financial services, with two-thirds of those jobs based outside London, and the sector contributes more than £170 billion a year to GDP—8.3% of all economic output.

The City of London is one of only two global financial capitals and is at the very heart of the international monetary system. This is an enviable position, and it is vital that we support the sector across the UK to retain this competitiveness on the world stage post Brexit so that the UK can continue to be one of the world’s premier global financial centres. It is therefore crucial that the UK’s regulatory framework plays its part in supporting this positive contribution to the UK economy and society. To do this, it must enhance competitiveness and support the industry in trading with the world, including in new markets. It must attract investment into the UK and promote innovation and consumer choice.

A secondary growth and international competitiveness objective is a simple and internationally proven way to achieve this, helping to ensure that the UK remains a leading global financial centre by empowering regulators to make the UK a better place to do business and ensuring a more attractive market for international providers and consumers of financial services. The UK is, of course, in competition with other international financial centres, and many of them, including Australia, Hong Kong, Japan, Malaysia, Singapore, the United States and the European Union, have introduced a similar objective, which they balance against financial stability and consumer protection.

In future groups we will come to topics such as investment in high-growth firms, but it is precisely by having this secondary objective on competitiveness and growth that we will create an ecosystem that supports investment in new technologies, provides much-needed economic growth and secures new jobs.

[The Parliamentary Secretary, HM Treasury (Baroness Penn) (Con)]

My Lords, the new secondary growth and competitiveness objectives in the Bill will ensure that the regulators can act to facilitate medium to long-term growth and competitiveness for the first time, but a focus on competitiveness and long-term growth is not new. When the UK was part of the European Union and financial services legislation was negotiated in Brussels, UK Ministers went to great efforts to ensure that EU regulations appropriately considered the impact that regulation could have on economic growth and on the competitiveness of our financial services sector.

Now that we have left the EU, and as the regulators take on responsibility for setting new rules as we repeal retained EU law, it is right that their objectives reflect the financial services sector’s critical role in supporting the wider economy. We must ensure that growth and competitiveness can continue to be properly considered within a robust regulatory framework. As the noble Lord opposite said, a secondary competitiveness objective strikes the right balance. It ensures that the regulators have due regard to growth and competitiveness while maintaining their primary focus on their existing objectives. That is why the Government strongly reject Amendment 10, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett of Manor Castle, which seeks to remove the secondary objectives from the Bill.

Turning to Amendment 9 from the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles of Berkhamsted, the Government agree that the UK financial services sector is not just an industry in its own right but an engine of growth for the wider economy. The current drafting of the Bill seeks to reflect that but also recognises that the scope of the regulators’ responsibilities relates to the markets they regulate—the financial services sector—so it is growth of the wider economy and of the financial services sector, but not at the expense of the wider economy. I hope I can reassure her on that point.

On Amendment 115, also from the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles, as noble Lords know, the Bill repeals retained EU law in financial services, including the MiFID framework. Detailed firm-facing requirements, such as those that this amendment seeks to amend, are likely to become the responsibility of the FCA. As such, it will be for the FCA to determine whether such rules are appropriate. When doing so, the FCA will have to consider whether rules are in line with its statutory objectives, including the new secondary growth and competitiveness objective.

Parliament will be able to scrutinise any rules that the regulators make, including pressing them on the effectiveness of their rules, and how they deliver against their objectives. Industry will also be able to make representations to the regulators where they feel that their rules are not having their intended effect or are placing disproportionate burdens on firms. I hope the noble Baroness is therefore reassured that the appropriate mechanisms are in place for considering the issues that she has raised via that amendment.

Financial Services and Markets Bill

Debate between Lord Livermore and Baroness Penn

Report stage
Tuesday 6th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

My Lords, this has been a fascinating if somewhat disheartening debate, and I have learned much listening to the contributions from noble Lords on all sides of the House.

We welcome the tabling of government Amendment 4, which brings forward new provisions relating to sustainability disclosure requirements, but we agree with the views expressed across the House, particularly as set out by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, arguing that the Bill simply does not go far enough in supporting the country’s green ambitions.

We support many of the amendments in principle but particularly Amendment 15 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, and Amendment 91 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Boycott, the latter having been signed by my noble friend Lady Chapman.

The financial services sector touches many more aspects of our lives then we may sometimes realise, with firms’ investment decisions having a direct impact on virtually all sectors of the economy. This activity can, and often does, do much that is good. For example, if we are to secure the green jobs of the future, businesses will need investment. But, as we see in some cases, such as investment activity that leads to deforestation, there can be severe negative environmental impacts. In a recent poll cited by Global Witness, 77% of UK savers said they would be unhappy to discover that their pension was funding deforestation and habitat loss, with 14 million people estimated to switch pension provider if they made such a discovery. However, as Amendment 7 highlights, there is currently no way for the public, nor indeed the Government, to tell if their money is invested in that way, and therefore no way for consumers to exercise choice. That surely cannot be right.

Amendment 91 would implement recommendations from the Government’s own Global Resource Initiative taskforce in relation to deforestation, a practice which causes significant harm to global climate ambitions, as well as to indigenous peoples who are evicted from their ancestral homes. We are told by the Government that they are serious about achieving net zero and protecting nature, yet, at present, the net-zero regulatory principle still fails to mention nature, which is what Amendment 15 would correct. Indeed, nature is not even mentioned in the Bill. As the WWF rightly points out, by excluding nature from this key financial services legislation, the UK will fail to secure opportunities that could make the UK a leading green finance centre, while exposing the country to nature-related risks.

We should also give serious weight to the intervention of Professor Sir Partha Dasgupta, who led the Government’s review of the economics of biodiversity, when he urges the Government to support the amendment. He says:

“We need to empower those in charge of regulating our financial system to support the sector to arrive at a nature-positive destination by recognising the value of natural capital and the significant social and economic benefits restoring nature presents”.


We are losing nature at an alarming rate, and these issues are only going to become more urgent. We have missed opportunities to act in the past, and we cannot continue to make the same mistakes. We therefore urge the Government to think again on these important areas, but if they are not willing to do so, we will support the noble Baronesses, Lady Hayman and Lady Boycott, should they choose to push their amendments to a vote.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, let me first take Amendment 15, from the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman. I reassure noble Lords that the regulators already consider issues related to sustainability, and specifically nature, as part of their work under their existing objectives. For example, the Government and the regulators are active participants in the work of the Taskforce on Nature-related Financial Disclosure, which we have heard about, which helps organisations to report and act on evolving nature-related risks; and the Bank of England is a key member of the Network for Greening the Financial System, which recently launched a task force on nature-related risks.

The noble Baroness listed the work that is happening and the various commitments, and I interpret that to mean that the lack of the reference to nature in the framework does not equal a lack of action by either the Government or the regulators. I understand the desire of noble Lords to see that reflected in the framework in the Bill. However, further work needs to take place to better understand the interaction between nature targets and the work of the financial services regulators when including it in regulation, and the conclusions of that work are not yet clear. Moreover, equivalent targets to those in the Environment Act for England and Wales in 2021 do not yet exist in the other devolved Administrations, so we remain of the view that it would not be appropriate to place a requirement within the FSMA regulatory principles without the clarity I spoke about, or to impose requirements that link to targets that do not yet exist; so unfortunately, the Government are unable to support the amendment.

Turning to Amendment 91 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Boycott, the Government are committed to working with UK financial institutions to further tackle deforestation-linked finance. As set out in the updated green finance strategy, we will begin this work with a series of government-convened round tables this year, and I am keen to work with noble Lords on this process.

As we discussed in Committee, the amendment we are considering today would involve imposing requirements on all regulated financial services firms, obliging them to undertake due diligence on practically all their client firms and their clients’ supply chains. In practice, this would amount to UK banks being required to check most of the world’s major companies and their supply chains for links to illegal deforestation, and stopping any finance to them until those companies can provide the data needed to do so. This is while the rest of the world’s banks carry on financing this activity with no global standard on deforestation in place.

Global due diligence is not something that can be legislated for by Parliament and the UK financial sector alone. In fact, trying to do so may make this problem harder to solve. Imposing this data requirement on UK financial firms alone where such data is lacking globally could lead to one of two things: firms trying to satisfy the requirement but failing due to a lack of data, leading to misreporting and misallocations of capital; or keeping that business outside the UK, with no chance of securing the type of environmental change we want and that is the aim of the amendment.

The Government therefore want to find a workable solution, and we are pursuing a number of different lines of action to do so, in addition to the commitment we made to work with UK financial institutions in the green finance strategy. First, we are directly addressing deforestation in situ by our partnerships approach. The Government launched the forest and climate leaders’ partnership at COP 27, and also fund the partnership for forests, which has channelled more than £1 billion of private investment into forests and sustainable land use, and brought more than 4 million hectares of critical landscapes under sustainable land use.

Secondly, the Government are working to address due diligence for illegal deforestation using the Environment Act. The most relevant UK businesses that use forest-risk commodities or products derived from them will be required to ensure those products are produced in compliance with relevant local laws. Thirdly, the Government are supporting the development of a coherent international approach on disclosure and management of nature-related risks and impact.

Since our debate in Committee, the Taskforce on Nature-related Financial Disclosure has published its latest draft framework. This now includes recommended metrics and associated governance strategies for businesses to understand and mitigate deforestation in areas of direct or indirect operational control. We committed in the green finance strategy to explore how the final TNFD framework should be incorporated into UK policy and legislative architecture, and we will start this work later this year, once the final framework is published.

I personally made the case to the International Sustainability Standards Board, while at COP 15 in Montreal, that such standards should be considered for integration into its work. If that happens, global standards are genuinely within reach. I acknowledge that TNFD or any subsequent global standards do not prohibit the financing of deforestation in itself but, as a disclosure framework, it is the bedrock for action, both by incentivising firms to take action on the risks that they identify and allowing the Government to consider taking further regulatory action after the establishment of such a disclosure framework. I hope, therefore, that I have explained why the Government cannot accept the amendments, but have also demonstrated that effective action is under way to address noble Lords’ concerns in these areas.

Turning to Amendments 93 and 113, also from the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, in the updated green finance strategy, the Government have already recognised that decisions about investing in the context of systemic risks such as climate change and biodiversity loss are complicated, in particular for pension funds. The Law Commission’s 2014 report suggested that fiduciary duties mean that non-financial factors can be considered as part of investment decisions if trustees have good reasons to think their members share their concerns and if such decisions do not involve a risk of significant financial detriment to the fund.

However, the Government recognise that trustees would like further information and clarity on their fiduciary duties in the context of the transition to net zero, and that is why we are taking steps to ensure that such clarity is forthcoming. Later this year, DWP will examine how closely its stewardship guidance is being followed, including whether incorrect interpretations of fiduciary duties are playing a role in this area. The financial markets and law committee, which includes representatives from both DWP and the Treasury, is working to consider issues around fiduciary duties and sustainability and whether further action or clarity is needed.

Tourist Spending: VAT

Debate between Lord Livermore and Baroness Penn

Wednesday 24th May 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, I would say to the noble Lord that the Government have looked very carefully at the Oxford Economics analysis, and we do appreciate that some of the costs would be offset by higher visitor numbers and their spending. However, the OBR’s and the Government’s previous analysis suggested that the offset was marginal and the policy still comes with significant fiscal costs. One of the key differences between the Government’s costings and those produced by Oxford Economics is the assumptions around additional visitor numbers, with the OBR estimating that VAT-free shopping could bring in 50,000 to 80,000 additional visitors and the industry commission report suggesting 1.6 million additional visitors.

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

My Lords, major UK tourist attractions last year saw 38 million fewer visitors than in 2019—a 23% fall—suffering first from lower international tourism because of the pandemic and then lower domestic tourism because of the cost of living crisis. Many of the UK’s seaside towns, already neglected, and with tourist spending in long-term decline, have suffered particularly badly. I ask the Minister what steps the Government are taking to support the regeneration of our seaside towns.

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

The noble Lord makes an important point. We have taken steps during the pandemic to provide support for those towns that rely on tourism; £37 billion of support went to tourism, leisure and hospitality in the form of grants, loans and tax breaks. We have the tourism recovery plan, which is focused on both international visitors and domestic tourism within the UK. We also have the towns fund, which is specifically focused on helping regenerate towns, including many of the seaside towns that do not tend to benefit from the bigger-city deals.

Energy Profits Levy

Debate between Lord Livermore and Baroness Penn

Tuesday 9th May 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My noble friend is right. That is why the Government have always sought to deliver a balance between a fair return for the UK from the use of its resources and providing the right conditions to attract investment in the North Sea. That is why we have the investment allowance in the EPL that provides an additional incentive for companies to reinvest profits in the UK. On the point about environmental impact, the level of tax relief available for upstream decarbonisation expenditure was increased from January this year to incentivise companies for the cleaner production of oil and gas.

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

My Lords, the Government’s energy levy leaves billions in excess profits on the table while many households struggle through an unprecedented cost of living crisis. Only last week BP announced quarterly profits of over £6 billion while Shell recorded a quarterly profit increase of 22%, handing a further £5 billion to shareholders and now allocating more to dividend payments alone than to its entire investment in renewables. Given that, and with households and small businesses facing sky-high energy bills, how well does the Minister think the current levy is working?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

I welcome the noble Lord to the Front Bench. He referred to figures that are the global profits of companies. As I have said to his noble friend, the UK applies its windfall tax to UK profits, and I think that is the Labour proposal also. Abolishing the investment allowance would be counter-productive. As I have said, the UK is still reliant on gas for its energy supply. Reducing incentives to invest would lead to investors pulling out of the UK, damaging the economy, causing job losses and leading to lower future tax revenue—tax revenue that we have used to put in place unprecedented cost of living support to families, which is still going out to households at the moment, so that those who are worried about their bills who are on low incomes and means-tested benefits can look forward to more support coming from the Government over the next year.

Covid-19: Economic Costs

Debate between Lord Livermore and Baroness Penn

Tuesday 28th July 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Penn]

I can reassure my noble friend that behavioural scientists make up part of the group of experts who are contributing to SAGE. In addition to that, the views of economists in the Treasury and elsewhere are inputted into Cabinet decision-making. My noble friend is right that we are going to have to learn to live with this disease for some time, so the safe reopening of our economy is focused on getting the public to make measures such as hand washing and social distancing part of their everyday lives until we find a longer-term solution, such as a vaccine.

[Lord Livermore (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, the original Question assumes a trade-off, yet the UK has the highest excess death rate in the world and is forecast to suffer the worst recession in the G7. Clearly, the last thing that the economy now needs is a second spike, so will the Minister consider extending statutory sick pay to the 2 million low-paid workers who still do not qualify for it but who may need to self-isolate even though they cannot afford to do so?

[Baroness Penn]

My Lords, the noble Lord is right that the UK has been hard hit by this virus, but I point out to him that that is also why we have one of the most generous fiscal responses in the world, at over £160 billion. The IMF estimates that UK tax and spending support in response to Covid has been greater than that in France, Spain or Italy.

Banks: Internet Transfers of Cash

Debate between Lord Livermore and Baroness Penn

Thursday 9th July 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Penn]

The Government are committed to clamping down on late payments. We made a manifesto commitment that we will deliver on to strengthen the powers of the Small Business Commissioner in this regard. Regarding Covid, there is mixed evidence on late payments. We are seeing evidence of good and bad practice from businesses; the Small Business Commissioner is monitoring this very closely.

[Lord Livermore (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, when a bank freezes a customer’s account without asking the National Crime Agency for consent, there currently is no statutory timetable specifying when they must unfreeze those funds. Does the Minister believe that there should be a maximum time for which accounts can be frozen?

[Baroness Penn]

The regulations are not prescriptive in setting out how firms should carry out their due diligence. Instead, they require firms to take a proportionate approach that is commensurate with their assessment of the risk. I think that is the right approach for the Government to take.

Economic Outlook and Furlough Scheme Changes

Debate between Lord Livermore and Baroness Penn

Thursday 18th June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Livermore (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, as well as the UK recording the highest excess death rate from Covid-19 of any country, it is now forecast by the OECD to suffer the worst recession in the G7, with a projected fall in GDP of 11.5% this year. Why is the UK likely to experience over this year the worst economic impact from the coronavirus crisis of all industrialised countries?

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Lord is correct that we have a severe outlook for this year, but that OECD report also forecasts us to have one of the strongest recoveries of the large countries it looked at. If two years are put together, we emerge close to the top of the table.

The noble Lord asked for some of the reasons why we will be particularly badly affected. I can point to two: one is the services nature of our economy, which has been particularly affected by the lockdown; the second is the relative openness of our economy, which means that we are more affected by changes in global demand.

Covid-19: Furloughed Space Grant Scheme

Debate between Lord Livermore and Baroness Penn

Monday 15th June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Penn]

The code is designed to encourage landlords and their tenants to find a solution that works for them both. On cash support, in addition to the Coronavirus Job Retention Scheme and others, we are getting cash directly to businesses, providing business rates relief worth more than £9 billion and providing grants to eligible businesses worth over £10 billion.

[Lord Livermore (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, tens of thousands of businesses are still not receiving support from the Government’s existing schemes. The latest figures show that 45,000 smaller businesses are still waiting for a loan through the Coronavirus Business Interruption Loan Scheme, and 60% of larger businesses still waiting too. What action are the Government taking to speed up the approval of loans to businesses, many of which have been facing cash flow difficulties for months already?

[Baroness Penn]

The noble Lord is right: some businesses have had trouble accessing the initial loan support schemes. One thing that the Government have done to change this was the introduction of the bounce-back loan scheme, which has significantly increased the speed of approvals for those businesses that qualify. We are also doing other things to help with cash flow that do not rely on such approvals. As I said, 99% of eligible businesses that are also eligible for a rates holiday have already been granted that and we have released £10 billion of cash grants to them as well.

Banks: Authorised Push Payment Fraud

Debate between Lord Livermore and Baroness Penn

Thursday 11th June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Penn]

As I said to my noble friend Lord Young, there are requirements on banks to ensure that, when bank accounts are set up, the firms identify and verify the customer’s identity. Under the voluntary code which was drawn up with industry, it is currently with the victim’s bank to pay reimbursements if the victim is at no fault in the fraud. Those arrangements expire at the end of this year, and the points that my noble friend and the noble Lord made may be raised with industry when looking at a long-term solution to the issue of reimbursing consumers.

[Lord Livermore (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, Covid-19 is providing fraudsters with new opportunities to prey on the vulnerable, and there are clearly substantial problems with how APP fraud is handled. I return to the point raised by my noble friend Lady Sherlock. Does the Minister believe that the Payment Systems Regulator has sufficient powers to force banks to reimburse customers if they refuse to do so?

[Baroness Penn]

I believe that the regulator has sufficient powers. However, the voluntary code is just over a year old. There will be a review of the operation of that code by the end of the year and, should that review reveal that further powers are necessary, of course the Government would consider the case for that.

G20: Debt Cancellation

Debate between Lord Livermore and Baroness Penn

Wednesday 10th June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Livermore (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, the G20 public debt initiative lasts only until the end of 2020, yet it is clear that the economic consequences of the Covid-19 pandemic will be felt far beyond the end of this year. Will the Government support an extension of the scheme?

[Baroness Penn]

Yes, we will.

Inheritance Tax

Debate between Lord Livermore and Baroness Penn

Wednesday 20th May 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Penn]

Changes have been made to inheritance tax in recent years; notably, that from 2017, implementation of the residential non-rateable band, which allows families who have built up an asset, usually the family home, to pass it on to their direct descendants. As I said in a previous answer, we keep the tax system under review; for example, we have considered and continue to consider carefully reports from the Office of Tax Simplification.

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

My Lords, as my noble friend Lord Wood made clear, wealth inequality in the UK is even greater than income inequality. As the Government consider how to pay for the current coronavirus crisis, will the Minister commit to the principle of fairer taxation of both income and wealth to ensure that those with the broadest shoulders genuinely bear the biggest burden?

[Baroness Penn]

The Government are committed to a fair taxation system. We recognise that the current pandemic will have an impact on public borrowing and we will need to look at the sustainability of our public finances in the future. Our immediate focus is on providing financial support now for those who have been hit by the pandemic and on supporting jobs and livelihoods while we are in the period of social distancing and other coronavirus-related restrictions.

Economy: Bank of England Forecasts

Debate between Lord Livermore and Baroness Penn

Wednesday 13th May 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Penn]

The Government are clear that “test, track, trace, isolate” will be a core part of the next phase of our response. We will seek to do this in different ways, and to learn lessons from previous pandemics and approaches in other countries. For example, we are using asymptomatic testing in health and care home settings to help reduce the spread of this disease.

[Lord Livermore (Lab)]

My Lords, both the Bank of England and the OBR have forecast that unemployment will double to 2 million, highlighting the severe impact this crisis is having on those not covered by the Government’s job retention schemes. Will the Minister therefore commit to improving the generosity of universal credit and consider introducing the active labour market policies seen in other countries, including job search support and job guarantees for the young?

[Baroness Penn]

The Government have already improved the generosity of universal credit by £20 a week and raised the value of the local housing allowance. The best thing that we can do in getting people back to work is to get the virus under control and allow the economy to be open. We will of course continue to keep under review any further measures that we need to support people who have, sadly, lost their job during this crisis.