Care Bill [HL]

Lord Lipsey Excerpts

Monday 22nd July 2013 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Lipsey]

92ZZV: Clause 34, page 28, line 31, leave out paragraph (b)

[Lord Lipsey]

My Lords, I think all five of the non-governmental amendments in this group are down to me, so I crave the Committee’s forgiveness if I am not the soul of brevity on this occasion. All the amendments refer to the Government’s proposed universal deferred payment scheme.

I start by reminding the Committee of the background to this scheme. Its origins lie in the proposal made by a minority of the royal commission of 1999. We—my noble friend Lord Joffe and I—were concerned with one clear defect of the means-tested system. It meant that people were forced to sell their homes to pay for care. The Daily Mail banged on about this practically every week, and it was right—I never thought that those words would escape my lips—to do so. However, we also felt that it would be wrong that people needing care could simply hang onto their homes and eventually bequeath them to their families without spending any of the capital that those homes represented to pay for their own care. Therefore, we proposed deferred payments—local authority loans secured against the value of people’s homes and repayable only when the home was sold, often after the person had died.

Every politician that I have ever discussed this with sees this as a no-brainer. Unfortunately, officials at both local and national levels over the years—I do not of course make this charge against any officials on the current Bill—have taken a rather different view. They could not understand why anyone would hang onto their house when they were living in a care home and they did not want to see valuable homes left empty. The emotional side occasionally escaped them.

The Labour Government nevertheless brought in a scheme to allow deferred payment, but it was essentially sabotaged. A decision was made that no interest should be paid on the loans, and that gave local authorities a financial incentive not to make them. Then many local authorities refused to put schemes in place. If they were challenged in the courts, they lost, but how many people wanted to mount such challenges? Or they denied individual applicants who could succeed only if they showed stamina and determination and lived long enough to see them through.

The result is that the deferred payment scheme has been, if not a complete failure, not by any means a success. There are about 8,000 deferred loans outstanding, which is around 2% of the number of people in care and maybe twice that for self-funders. Most of the schemes are short-lasting in practice. The old person takes out a deferred loan and maybe they hope they will get home after a spell a little longer than the 12 weeks allowed in law to make a decision. Eventually they see that they will not be able to return to their own homes and the deferred loan is brought to an end. It performs a very useful function for the old person in giving them time to think, but the schemes are fairly short-lasting.

I am delighted that the Government have decided to complete the work that was half-botched in the 2000s and which Dilnot endorsed—a universal deferred payment scheme that actually works. The amendments in my name and one in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Warner are designed to refine the Government’s proposals to make them work even better still.

Amendment 92ZZV gets rid of a suggestion in the Bill that people should in some circumstances require third-party guarantees on the loans as well as their being secured against the value of the home. That is belt and braces and I do not see why families should be providing braces when there is a perfectly good belt in place. It would particularly apply when the deferred payment is secured on where somebody else—perhaps the old person’s son or daughter—lives. At the moment, case law provides that a local authority cannot in those circumstances force the sale of a property in order to redeem a mortgage on that property when somebody else lives there. However, if a guarantee was sought from the co-owner, the guarantor could be in a position where they are expected to repay the individual’s care costs based on an unrealisable value of half of the property they live in. This provision may put off people who would otherwise have taken advantage of the scheme and I ask the Minister to look at it again.

Amendment 92ZZW limits the interest rates that local authorities can charge on deferred payments to MLR plus 2%. This is to prevent local authorities attempting to sabotage the new scheme as they sabotaged the previous scheme. They could otherwise do so by charging Wonga rates of interest and this amendment will prevent their doing that.

--- Later in debate ---

We have a sector-led review working constructively with the Government to understand how the market will develop, or should develop, and in general create the right environment for products to succeed. That work will proceed over the summer.

[Lord Lipsey]

My Lords, I wonder if the noble Earl could clarify what he said about equity release as an alternative to deferred payments. There seem to me to be two absolutely insuperable objects to that working. One is that you could not have both a deferred mortgage and an equity release on the same property. You cannot have two things secured. More importantly, you cannot get equity release on a house that is empty. The rules of the Equity Release Council—I am on its advisory board—do not permit that. That is not a possible solution to the problem which I put forward.

[Earl Howe]

I have received advice that, technically, that is not so, but I am more than happy to engage the noble Lord in discussion after this debate. It would largely depend on the availability of a deferred scheme, agreed to by a local authority. It would also largely depend on the quantum of the debt that was already in existence. Of course, setting aside this particular issue, there could be a property on which there was pre-existing debt of a considerable size. It would largely be for the local authority to judge in individual cases whether it was in a position to offer a deferred payment scheme, looking at the facts of the case. I do not think one can make generalised remarks about this. We think that technically it is possible for an equity release scheme to exist alongside a deferred payment loan. As I say, I am sure that the noble Lord, with his insight into the market, will be able to put us right if we have misread the situation.

--- Later in debate ---

[Earl Howe]

My noble friend is, of course, completely right. They are model councils of their kind. It is rather fanciful to present them as possible examples of councils that might wish to do badly by their residents.

This is a major reform that we have committed to introduce in this Parliament. While I am the first to agree that that in itself should not drive the timetable, we think that the timetable is achievable. We are consulting to get the details right and working with the care sector to ensure that implementation goes as planned. The noble Lord raised some important points. I am sure that he knows me well enough to accept that this is not the last occasion when I shall look at the points that he has raised. I shall do so further. For the time being, I hope that I have responded to his satisfaction, at least on some of the amendments, and that he will feel able to withdraw the amendment.

[Lord Lipsey]

My Lords, I genuinely thank the Minister for that response. I do not want to be the least bit churlish about these amendments which, after all, finally put into practice an idea that came to me in the bath 14 years ago. It does not happen very often, but this time we are on the verge.

I warmly welcome the Minister’s assurance that there will be a national interest rate for deferred loans. That completely deals with the point raised by my amendment on interest rates and my point about Wonga rates of interest and is a tremendous breakthrough for this scheme, so I thank the Minister most warmly for that.

Moving to slightly more churlish mode, on whether we have 152 schemes or one, on balance, I buy the Minister’s arguments against having a separate national organisation imposing this or a compulsory national scheme, but that is not the proposal made in my amendment. My proposal was that the Government produce a model scheme that those who wished to could adopt. It might have some bits that could be added on or taken away as local options within the national scheme, but it would at least stop work being done 152 times over. As my noble friend Lord Warner pointed out, some people are working with this stuff for the first time because they have never brought in a deferred payment scheme. I ask the Minister, among the other things that he has kindly offered to consider, to have another look at that specially to see whether we can find some mileage in it.

I got no change on the time of introduction of the scheme, not perhaps greatly to my surprise, but I still believe in my guts that, as this process moves forward, it will become more and more apparent that it is not sensible to aim for 2015. I do not ask the Minister to comment on that now, but I give him an assurance that I—and I hope my Front Bench will do the same—will not accuse him of a U-turn if later on he finds that it is not sensible. A syndrome in government that comes up time and time again is that a Government announce a timetable and, when it is quite clear it cannot be met, go on fighting like made to preserve their original timetable. I shall not say the words “unified benefit”, but I easily could. This does not make any sense. We are all after the same thing here, and if the Minister decides—and I am sure that he will make a very good judgment on this—that it cannot sensibly be met, let him say so openly and we shall be welcoming, not critical.

My final point emerges partly from what we were just talking about: things on which the Government will possibly think again. The noble Earl very generously said that there are lots of things on which he will want to engage in discussions; at one stage he said, “at least not for the time being”, and has made many remarks of that kind. I will make a purely practical point. It is 22 July and the House will return to the Bill relatively early in October, although I do not know when, and many noble Lords are planning to be away for parts of that period. All of us want to resolve as many of these issues as we possibly can without the need for confrontation or debate in this House or, heaven forefend, Divisions, if they can be avoided. Therefore it is rather important that we all reflect on how we can set up a mechanism so that we can continue over this period to discuss the outstanding issues. I know that the Minister will reflect, but he and his officials may want to have discussions with some of us who are involved, so that by the time that we get to Report we will have made use of this Committee stage and found a way to move the House and the Bill forward without unnecessary rancour. With that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 92ZZV withdrawn.