European Union (Approval of Treaty Amendment Decision) Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Liddle and Lord Stoddart of Swindon

Wednesday 13th June 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon]

My Lords, I must confess that when I saw these amendments in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, I thought that we had a convert. However, my hopes were dashed by his speech this afternoon. It appears that he tabled these amendments as it enabled him to make the speech—it is a very nice way of doing it—that he could not make when we debated this matter on Second Reading. He has a point. The implications of this Bill are much further ranging than has been related to the House. I shall quote from the Times on 11 May this year, which will support the case—or non-case—that the noble Lord made:

“There are two issues with this EU treaty change that could cause big problems: first, it allows the eurozone to integrate further with consequences for UK interests; second, the quid pro quo guarantee that the UK won’t be forced to contribute to euro bailouts in future may not be legally binding”.

So there is some support in that article for the view that perhaps this Bill is much more important and far-ranging than some of us had believed. I and other people considered whether this Bill could be amended and I came to the conclusion that it was best left to the House of Commons. However, we have an amendment here which I believe should be supported. The Bill is very important indeed, particularly in the light of what is happening at present. The problems of the eurozone and the European Union itself are leading to demands for further integration. Even today, the President of the European Commission, Mr Barroso, is outlining plans to the European Parliament for a European banking union, which would affect not only the eurozone but the whole of the European Union.

Angela Merkel, for example, believes that the answer to the problem is not less but more Europe, politically, financially and economically. This Bill facilitates what these people are thinking. The Bill is much more important than we previously believed and the House should be grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes. I should really describe him as my noble friend, because we have been around a long time and embarked on many debates. Usually, we have been on the same side. Paradoxically, according to the wording of the amendment we are still on the same side, but perhaps if he puts it to a vote we shall be in opposite Lobbies. We shall see. In the mean time, if he puts it to the vote, I shall support him.

[Lord Liddle]

My Lords, I had better explain briefly the opposition Front Bench position on this amendment and some of the speeches we have heard. It was a great pity that my noble friend Lord Foulkes could not make Second Reading, because he would have made a strong pro-European speech in that debate. He was right that my noble friend Lord Radice made an excellent speech as well. However, from our perspective I do not think that we can support the thrust of his amendment. I see the logic of his position. In the European Union Act, which we debated over many hours last year, we got ourselves in a situation where, if it was decided to establish a European office of paperclips, we would have to have a referendum on it, because it would involve a transfer of sovereignty to Brussels.

For our part, we believe that referenda should take place only on issues of major constitutional significance, as the Lords Constitution Committee recommended, and that we should be consistent with that principle. As far as the Labour position in the Commons is concerned—and I say this with some trepidation because my dear noble friend Lord McAvoy has a great record as a party loyalist and defender of party discipline in the other place—the shadow Foreign Secretary, Douglas Alexander, in the Commons debate last autumn on the question of a referendum, said:

“I urge opposition to the motion because I do not believe that Britain’s national interest would be served by spending the coming months and years debating the case for Britain leaving the world’s largest single market”.—[Official Report, Commons, 24/10/11; col. 60.]

The leader of the Labour Party made it clear only last week or the week before that Labour’s position had not changed from that view in the mean time.

That is where we stand. The EU Act is a contradictory piece of legislation. The measure is not defined under the terms of that Act as a transfer of powers to Brussels, and we therefore do not have a referendum—but there is no point in reiterating our debates on that Act. Our view is that this is an emergency situation in Europe; the stability mechanism is a necessary part of tackling the problems of the eurozone, which is very much in the British national interest. Therefore, this legislation should go through in the speediest possible time.

European Union Bill

Debate between Lord Liddle and Lord Stoddart of Swindon

Monday 13th June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon]

My Lords, I supported this amendment in Committee and we had quite a good debate about it. I am not going to repeat everything that I said at that stage but I want to say a couple of things. First, I regret that the noble Lord, Lord Willoughby de Broke, has reduced the amount of time from five years to three.

Secondly, second referendums have been quite common in Europe. When Governments do not like an outcome, they are quite prepared to hold a second referendum in order to get it changed. Second referendums per se are perfectly logical and legitimate in the European Union. Surely we should not arrive at the decision that once a referendum has been held on anything there should be no second referendum. That would be quite absurd. It would bring Governments in particular into disrepute, because it is usually they who call for second referendums, if they said to the electorate, “You have voted but I’m afraid we don’t like what you have told us. We must therefore ask you to vote again, and indeed again, until you provide the right answer for the Government”.

[Lord Liddle]

My Lords, the Opposition cannot support the amendment. The reasons why many have spoken against it are very true. I agree with what the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, had to say. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Hamilton, that in our political culture a precise repeat referendum would be extremely unlikely. However, we should not tie our hands. As the noble Lord, Lord Deben, said, you vote under a particular set of circumstances but circumstances can change at remarkable speed. We do not need these kinds of constraints on our politics.

European Council Decision: EUC Report

Debate between Lord Liddle and Lord Stoddart of Swindon

Monday 21st March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Liddle]

This debate has been a curious experience for me because, having listened to the contributions of the noble Lords, Lord Pearson of Rannoch and Lord Stoddart of Swindon, I am perhaps a much stronger supporter of what the Government are doing than I think I ought to be. I believe that the Government are right to support this measure and I think that both noble Lords are completely wrong in thinking that somehow it would be in the British national interest to pull the house of the euro down, causing currency chaos and economic disruption on a huge scale in order to pursue their own hatred and fanaticism in their opposition to the European Union.

[Lord Stoddart of Swindon]

My suggestion was not that we should pull the eurozone down but that it is not necessary for us to take these measures to bolster the eurozone at all.

[Lord Liddle]

Of course I accept what the noble Lord says, but the implication was that the euro would come tumbling down, and I think that the economic consequences for us, with our trade and economic links to Europe, would be very serious. Further, the instability that would be created by a German mark soaring and a Greek drachma plunging would be too horrendous to contemplate.

What I want to do in my brief remarks is to declare that I support what is being proposed, but with two qualifications. First, what we have seen tonight is an excellent example of parliamentary accountability. This motion has been put to the House and, before it is approved by the European Council, we have an opportunity to say whether we agree with it or not. If I may anticipate the debate tomorrow on the EU Bill, this is in sharp contrast to what will be proposed under the new arrangements. What we are going to have there is a requirement for the Government somehow to argue that, under the proposed criteria, a referendum would not be justified for this measure. I am totally opposed to multiple referenda and will be arguing that tomorrow, but on the basis that the Government are arguing, it seems extraordinary to suggest that what we have before us with the European stability mechanism is somehow not a big extension of competence and is not significant. It is extremely significant.

Indeed, I would argue that what is happening in the eurozone at the moment is as significant a development for the strengthening of its governance as we have had since the establishment of the single currency and the single market in the 1980s. It is a far more significant development than the Treaty of Lisbon or the constitutional treaty that preceded it. It is for European integration very significant.

One cannot argue that this is of no relevance to Britain. For one thing, the ESM will be one pillar of a new regime of economic governance that includes macroeconomic surveillance and a competiveness pact. I do not argue that these measures are perfect; in fact, they are far less than ideal and this should be very much work in progress. However, integration of economic governance is certainly proceeding.

The Government make the crucial error of thinking of this question in terms of a transfer of power to Brussels from the United Kingdom. They argue that, because Britain is not in the eurozone, there is no transfer of power. However, what in fact is going on within the whole of the European Union at the moment is a very big shift in the balance of power, with the likely creation of a eurozone bloc that has a much bigger influence on the economic policies of the whole of the EU. It is about this important change in the balance of power that we should really be concerned, instead of going on about transfers of power.

Perhaps I may cite one example that is directly related to the subject of the ESM: the issue of financial regulation. If we have a sovereign debt crisis in a eurozone member country and it is necessary for there to be a restructuring of the debt, it will logically lead to problems in the banks which own the bonds that have lost much of their face value. That will in turn require new rules on the capital adequacy of banks and on banking mergers. If there are to be in future stages restructurings of Greek and Irish sovereign debt, there will also be grave consequences for financial regulation and the banking system. We are exposing ourselves to real loss of influence on these matters, because it will be a eurozone bloc that decides in terms of its own interests what those regulations should be. We will turn up at the Council of Finance Ministers with that decision in practice having been taken, with majority voting there in the Council of Finance Ministers, and with very little opportunity for us to influence it. When one thinks that the City of London is one of our key interests, one realises that this is quite a serious threat to us.

Of course, the new regime is not ideal and it is work in progress—I dare say that my noble friend Lord Eatwell will say something about this. My strong view is that if something is not ideal we should use our maximum influence to try to change it. Obviously, there is no immediate prospect of us joining the euro and becoming part of the ESM, but we should try to involve ourselves intimately in the discussions that are taking place. I am worried that the Government, as far as I can see, are not doing that. Mrs Merkel, as I understand it, made an offer to the British Government whereby they could be part of the competitiveness pact that she was trying to negotiate. Apparently the British Government have said that they do not wish to be part of that pact, whereas Poland, which is equally not a member of the euro area, is anxious not to be excluded from these decisions on economic governance questions which go wider than the eurozone.

There is a significant problem here for the United Kingdom and the Government ought to recognise this. They should also recognise that something of fundamental importance to our economic future and, indeed, to our sovereignty is happening here.