Northern Ireland (Regional Rates and Energy) (No. 2) Bill

Debate between Lord Lexden and Lord Hay of Ballyore

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords & Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 19th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lexden (Con)]

My Lords, I strongly support this amendment, introduced so powerfully by my noble friend Lord Empey and supported so powerfully by my noble friend Lord Cormack and others. I expressed my general concern about the issue at Second Reading last week. By that time, I had received a few emails from deeply troubled farmers and small business men in Ulster. Since then, the trickle has become a flood of deeply worried people who accept that a reduction in grants is just and right, but seriously question the justice of the extent of the reductions to which they will be subject.

It is good news that the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee in the other place—I sometimes wish we had an equivalent body in this House—under its highly respected chairman, Dr Andrew Murrison, will be conducting a full investigation. This has given comfort to those from Ulster who have been in touch with us. It would be unfortunate, to say the least, if that inquiry, which is now under way with, I understand, every intention of its rapid completion, should be pre-empted by decisions taken in advance of it.

The noble Lord, Lord Empey, is a personal friend of mine. He is also deeply respected on all sides of our House as a wise, well-informed, moderate voice for the people of Ulster, and we should particularly bear in mind that he speaks too as a former Energy Minister in the Northern Ireland Executive.

[Lord Hay of Ballyore (DUP)]

My Lords, I welcome the debate in Committee this afternoon. I wonder, as I listen to some—not all—of the speeches whether this is all about having a go at the Democratic Unionist Party, or perhaps because there is a local government election on the horizon. I say that very clearly. I wonder whether, in trying to resolve a serious situation, this is about politics more than anything else. At the outset, I thank the Minister for the many meetings we have had with him on this complex situation, as the noble Lord, Lord Empey, said.

The Minister will be aware of our deep concerns over the lack of proper scrutiny of these proposals; we have made him aware of that on several occasions. I said in the House last week that if people entered the RHI scheme in good faith and feel that they are now being treated unfairly, it is certainly not the fault of the people who entered the scheme. But, of course, we know that this situation has resulted from a decision by the European Commission on state aid rules; it is very clear on this. Maybe the Minister could clarify that the Commission has indicated that it is not in a position to approve a tariff that delivers a rate of return of higher than 12%. Can the Minister confirm that this is a way of putting this scheme on a strong legal footing? There are legal issues with this scheme. Certainly, the failure to go down the road of looking at a scheme with a rate higher than 12% would make the scheme illegal. That is an interesting point, which I would like the Minister to clarify as well.

I am certainly led to believe that the failure to agree this scheme would mean that payments would not be made to anybody, and the closure of the scheme. These issues deeply concern us, and certainly concern many of the people who bought into the scheme and who now feel very aggrieved—I can understand all that. However, the Minister tells us that if we do not go down this road of agreeing this scheme, there is no scheme, and if we agree the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Empey, it will make the scheme illegal. All these issues need to be clarified by the Minister.

I welcome the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee’s inquiry into the scheme; it will be interesting to see where it sits on this issue. I welcome the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, who has undertaken to consider carefully any recommendations regarding the scheme from the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee. However, once again, we are told that this scheme must be approved by 1 April, because if it is not, nobody will be paid and there will be no scheme. There is therefore a conundrum here for all of us as we try to find a way through this difficult issue. When you are told about that information, and all that comes together, it is a conundrum. It is either this scheme or no scheme, and it is important that the Minister clarifies all those positions and issues when he winds up.

We are all getting emails and letters from individuals about the scheme and how they entered it, and so on. Will the Minister also undertake that he will investigate the cases of individuals who came to him directly, or who come to us and we pass on to him? That might help us to resolve some of these problems, because people are sending everyone emails—I think we have all received a number of them—but it is difficult to guide them to where they should go for further investigation. If the Minister could say that he and his department will take that on, it might be a way to get people who have deep concerns about the scheme to where they need to go for full investigation.

With the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee’s investigation going on as well, my problem is that if we wait until the committee’s report is published, it will be too late. The scheme must be operational by 1 April or no one will be paid and the scheme will be gone.

Northern Ireland (Stormont Agreement and Implementation Plan) Act 2016 (Independent Reporting Commission) Regulations 2016

Debate between Lord Lexden and Lord Hay of Ballyore

Monday 7th November 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lexden (Con)]

My Lords, it is impossible to forget the widespread feelings of shock and outrage which were evoked by events in Northern Ireland in the summer of last year. They demonstrated, in the most stark and vivid manner, the continuing malign presence of paramilitary organisations 17 years after the signing of the Belfast agreement. The sheer extent of paramilitary malignity was most vividly illustrated for us by the noble Lord, Lord Empey, in his powerful and moving remarks a little while ago.

Some of us felt last year, and still feel, that it was unfortunate, to put it mildly, that the Independent Monitoring Commission, which could have continued to play a most useful role, had been wound up in 2011. It is so much easier to adapt an existing institution to deal with fresh challenges and difficulties than to establish an entirely new one, particularly when two sovereign Governments then have to reach a fresh agreement between them. But of course no sense of regret for what is past should inhibit full-hearted support for the new Independent Reporting Commission. It will have a most important contribution to make in strengthening the still fragile peace of Northern Ireland, which matters above all else.

Some important questions have been raised by noble Lords this evening, and I would like to raise three more. First, the fresh start agreement, signed a year ago this month, states that it,

“places fresh obligations on Northern Ireland’s elected representatives to work together on their shared objective of ridding society of all forms of paramilitary activity and groups”.

One year on, how much progress has been made in advancing these fresh obligations?

Secondly, will the Independent Reporting Commission have all the legal advice that it will need to ensure that its work does not,

“have a prejudicial effect on any proceedings which have, or are likely to be, commenced in a court of law”,

in the words of the agreement signed in September between the two Governments?

Thirdly, when will the remaining regulations subject to the negative procedure be laid? The appropriate period will need to elapse before they become law, which presumably means that they may not have been passed when the commission is established early next year, as my noble friend Lord Dunlop indicated in his remarks at the outset of this debate, although the Explanatory Memorandum issued with the regulations gives next month—December—as the date of establishment.

I hope that the first report of the commission will be forthcoming as soon as possible. We need to be clear that a successful working partnership has been forged between its four members. We need to be clear about the specific aims and objectives that the commission has set for itself in the first phase of its existence. Such matters need to be kept before this Parliament. Under the old Stormont regime, devolution in Northern Ireland meant indifference to the Province’s affairs here at Westminster; that must never ever happen again.

[Lord Hay of Ballyore (DUP)]

My Lords, first, I apologise to the Minister for not being here at the start of this debate. I see this very much as a further development of the political process in Northern Ireland. This can only help. I know that the Executive are dealing with some very difficult issues at the moment. I would hope that these provisions will help them to deal with those issues a lot sooner.

We should put on record the previous Secretaries of State who have worked tirelessly to get where we are in Northern Ireland today. We need to recognise that we have had almost nine years of fairly stable government; okay, there have been a few bumps along the way—some of them fairly serious—but they have managed to stay together. I think that we have a stable Government and a stable Assembly in Northern Ireland now. That is a huge achievement compared to where we came from 20, 25 or 30 years ago. We have all moved on in Northern Ireland. You have only to look at the pledge of office used by Ministers in the Assembly, and by Assembly Members, which is set out in Schedule 4 to the Northern Ireland Act. All this is moving Northern Ireland forward.

This all comes out of what was agreed by the political parties on 17 November in A Fresh Start. I hope that we will now have a commission which will report independently—“independently” is very important. The objective is of course to help end paramilitary and criminal activity in Northern Ireland. I do not believe that this commission can do that on its own; there has to be a collective approach from politicians, policing and the southern Government to bring this activity to an end. I know that some Peers have said, rightly, that it has been 20 years and we still have paramilitary organisations and criminality. They are almost leeches to their own communities; they beg from their own communities and create major problems there. We have to remember that they are happy enough to keep their own community in the way that it is because that helps their cause. For me, it was never about when they would leave the stage; for me, it is how they leave the stage that is vitally important.

I believe that we have paramilitaries who genuinely want to come into the democratic process. We should try to help to bring them in. The police and the justice system in Northern Ireland should deal with those who do not want to come into the process. When you talk to paramilitaries, there is a desire to leave it behind and come in. It is about how we get them in and deal with them, and then how they eventually leave the stage, but they must be part of the solution in Northern Ireland. We cannot isolate them totally and absolutely. Yes, as noble Lords have said, it is 20 years but that is 20 years too long. We need to find a way of dealing with this issue. They are a total curse in Northern Ireland. I believe that on some occasions they hold back our politicians who want to move forward even quicker. The legacy issue in Northern Ireland is a major issue. We must try to resolve that issue. I am hearing reasonably good soundings that they are moving forward on it. If it can be resolved, that will be better for the future of Northern Ireland and for all its people, so let us move forward. This is good news here tonight.