Tobacco and Vapes Bill

Debate between Lord Lansley and Baroness Merron

Committee stage
Thursday 13th November 2025 Grand Committee

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

My Lords, I am most grateful to noble Lords who tabled amendments in this group. I thank all noble Lords for their contributions to the debate.

I am sorry to hear that the noble Lord, Lord Mott, is unwell, and I am sure we all wish him well. On his Amendment 142, which was moved by the noble Lord, Lord Udny-Lister, restrictions currently set a 2-millilitre tank size limit, and a 10-milliletre refill tank size limit for vaping products. Over recent years, manufacturers have developed devices where multiple refill tanks are attached to the device itself. I assure the noble Earl, Lord Howe, and other noble Lords that the Bill already contains powers that allow us to regulate the nature and amount of substance that may be released into the body of a person using a relevant product, which includes vaping devices and the emissions released by such products. This includes restricting not only the nicotine in the tank but the nicotine that can be emitted in the vapour.

My next point is key to a number of points made in the helpful debate today: on 8 October we launched a call for evidence, which runs until 3 December. That, to me, is crucial in informing the development of future regulations under the Bill, which noble Lords are correctly asking for. We are seeking evidence to ensure that all nicotine-containing products have safe and appropriate levels of nicotine.

I understand the spirit in which Amendment 144, spoken to by the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, and Amendment 146, spoken to by the noble Earl, Lord Russell, have been tabled and the points that were made. I also heard clearly the concerns expressed by the noble Baroness, Lady Fox. We agree that descriptions of flavours are part of the appeal of vapes to children. The Bill allows us to regulate flavour descriptors. However, evidence suggests that children are attracted to the fruit and sweet flavours of vapes, both in their taste and smell, as well as how they are described.

[Lord Lansley (Con)]

Can the Minister tell me exactly where in the Bill the power to regulate flavour descriptors is to be found?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I am sure that I will be able to do that, if the noble Lord will allow me to continue in the meantime.

What we do not yet know is the long-term harms of certain ingredients or flavours. This is why we need to be able to limit the flavours themselves, with the ability to respond to emerging evidence or scientific advances in the future, as well as how flavours are described. I can refer the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, on the point that he raised to Clause 91, which says:

“The Secretary of State may by regulations make provision about—”


et cetera. I hope that will be helpful to him.

I understand the concerns that were raised about how restrictions on flavours can impact former smokers who have switched to vaping. We absolutely recognise that vape flavours are an important consideration for adult smokers, and we will carefully consider restrictions to avoid any unintended consequences for those who seek to quit smoking. Our aims for future regulations on vape flavours, as well as for the wider regulations on vapes, are to reduce the appeal of vapes to young people while ensuring that they remain a viable quit aid for adult smokers. I heard the concern of the noble Earl, Lord Russell, about ensuring that the legislation is right. I am sure that all noble Lords share that view.

The published call for evidence includes flavours of tobacco, vape and nicotine products, to ensure that we are considering the best available evidence. We will also review the approaches taken by other countries, to learn the lessons and to consider whether they are appropriate for the UK. I give an assurance, as I have done before, that we will then consult on specific proposals before making regulations.

On the point about international comparisons—the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, raised a certain aspect of them—there are varied determinations on what a flavour is. For example, in the Netherlands, there is a specified list, and, in Finland, there is a restriction on all characterising flavours. That is why the call for evidence and the subsequent consultation are so important.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

To my knowledge, he did not. I return to the point about consultation. There is a requirement to consult before making regulations under the majority of the powers in the Bill. At the risk of repeating myself, which I will do, we published a call for evidence on 8 October. The evidence is—I am sorry for pausing, but I have a cough. Perhaps the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, would like to take advantage of that.

[Lord Lansley (Con)]

I will give the Minister a moment to drink a glass of water.

If I may presume to ask a pointed question, I am looking for Ministers not to say, “Well, you didn’t do it in the past, therefore you can’t be expected to do it in future”, but to have a conversation with the industry about what this new regime will be, how it will work and how we can—most effectively, with the least interference in how an industry operates and with the lowest compliance costs—arrive at something that is flexible and effective. This may mean that the industry comes together to do something that it has not done in the past, but I do not think that we should exclude the possibility that the industry is capable of doing that.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I understand that. I refer to my previous comments about Clause 104 already providing for legislative sub-delegation, although I am aware that the noble Lord has raised a broader point and drawn on the interests of the alcohol industry. I understand the point he is making. However, at the risk of repetition, our concern is very much based on our experience and the evidence of the industry. I realise that the noble Lord does not agree with that.

[Lord Lansley (Con)]

If I may intervene, since this is Committee and we cannot interrupt each other on Report and have this conversation, the point I am making is very simple: the past is not a necessary guide to the future. The fact that the industry did not do something in the past does not mean that it is not capable of doing it effectively in the future. As the Minister knows, the department’s experience is that, in relation to the alcohol industry, the Portman Group is an effective instrument for coregulation, so we should not exclude that possibility. I acknowledge that it is not simply a question of what powers are in the Bill; it is about how one structures the regime, and that conversation should happen now.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I will be very happy to write further to the noble Lord, referring to the points that he raises, but I feel that he and I are at risk of repeating the same points to each other. My concern is that the industry has had much opportunity and not taken it. Indeed, it has been extremely creative—I am being polite—in working its way around legislation. Noble Lords will have heard my resistance to setting up more loopholes, and that is also for this very good reason. Although in theory I can understand the point the noble Lord is making, I am afraid that my reality does not bear it out. But I will gladly write to him. I appreciate that he is seeking to be constructive and draw on good practice elsewhere, which I understand. I thank him for the break that he gave me.

Finally, as I said, we published a call for evidence on 8 October on issues where more evidence is needed before we consult on specific proposals. That allows all stakeholders, including those relevant to Amendments 154, 154A and 198, to contribute their views. I hope that, with this, noble Lords will feel able not to press their amendments.

[Lord Lansley (Con)]

My Lords, I had plenty of opportunities to respond as we went along during the debate, so I simply take this opportunity to beg leave to withdraw Amendment 154A.

Tobacco and Vapes Bill

Debate between Lord Lansley and Baroness Merron

Committee stage
Tuesday 11th November 2025 Grand Committee

[Lord Lansley (Con)]

My Lords—ah.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I thank the noble Lord for his almost intervention on that very point. I shall try to get the tense right here. As is standard government practice, a new burdens assessment will be conducted and shared with the Local Government Association. I can assure the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, that the additional net cost to local authorities in England will be considered in line with the new burdens doctrine. In summary, I hope that, for the reasons I have given—

[Lord Lansley (Con)]

None the less, the impact assessment, which I quoted, says:

“A new burdens assessment will be completed … ahead of the Bill being introduced”.


The Bill has been introduced so, clearly, the impact assessment was incorrect in that respect. I also reiterate to the Minister the request for her to say that the Government will be willing to look not only at the costs —there is an estimate of those—but at what the revenues from fixed penalty notices turn out to be, in case there is a gap between the cost of enforcement and the revenue from fixed penalty notices. Even if they continued to receive money into the Consolidated Fund, would the Government be willing to consider making additional Exchequer grants beyond the £10 million to meet any such gap?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

The noble Lord makes an interesting point. We will of course keep these matters under review. I will certainly look again at the impact assessment and at the point made by the noble Lord; I would be happy to write to him further, if needed, once I have had a look at all of that. On his specific point, we will keep an eye on the revenue, but, again— I am not sure that this is exactly the point that the noble Lord made; perhaps I can provide that bit of cover—in our earlier discussion, the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, and the noble Earl, Lord Howe, both acknowledged, as I did, that we are not seeking to get enough from fixed penalty notices to fund this. That is not our intention; in fact, we all hope that the revenue will decline as this Bill becomes increasingly successful in its impact. Let us also remember why we have this Bill: to introduce a smoke-free generation and drive down the demand for consumption. That changes the whole landscape. This is literally a generational change. So I hope that noble Lords will feel able not to press their amendments.

Tobacco and Vapes Bill

Debate between Lord Lansley and Baroness Merron

Committee stage
Monday 27th October 2025 Grand Committee

[Lord Lansley (Con)]

Is the Minister aware of the retailers—some 3,000 of them—which have written to Ministers to make the point, which emerged in a number of noble Lords’ speeches, about how concerned retailers are about the emphasis upon them denying access to vapes? The use of age-gating technology would substantially relieve those pressures on retailers.

We need to look at what the evidence may be about whether adult smokers who wish to quit by using vapes would be at all deterred by the age-gating technology. To that extent, what worries me is that we may conclude, either through international experience or pilot schemes in this country, that they are not deterred at all. Then suddenly we do not have access to a technology that would deal with illicit sales and proxy purchasing, which the point-of-sale restrictions will not bite upon. I worry that we should have the powers available.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I understand the point the noble Lord makes. I believe I said that it potentially risks making vapes less accessible. I know that that is not a view that he shares. I also agree that, where there is evidence, we need to be focused on it in the measures we are taking. But the position I have outlined is the case. I will reflect on the comments that he and other noble Lords have made, which I have heard very well. I understand the concerns of retailers and I am very aware of them; that is why we continue to work so closely with their trade associations to overcome difficulties. We do not want retailers to be put in a position where they cannot do the job that they want to do. We will continue in our work in that way.

With that, I hope the noble Lord will feel about to withdraw his amendment.

NHS and Social Care: Joint Working

Debate between Lord Lansley and Baroness Merron

Thursday 26th June 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

The noble Baroness raises a practical and realistic point that many care workers speak about. She will know that we are implementing a new fair pay agreement that, for the first time ever, will reflect what people actually do. Also, for the first time, there will be a universal career structure for adult social care that supports care workers. The approach that the Government are now taking shows a line of movement that takes seriously the pay, terms and conditions of care workers. I should also add that the noble Baroness, Lady Casey, will have free range to decide how she wishes to conduct her review of social care. Perhaps the noble Baroness, Lady Watkins, will ensure that she speaks to the noble Baroness, Lady Casey, about that.

[Lord Lansley (Con)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that sometimes the most effective integration of care is around the decisions and choices of the care recipient themselves? To that purpose, would she agree that the NHS should be pursuing personal health budgets that can be combined with direct payments from social care entitlements, so that recipients of care can design their care, which will sometimes include the appointment of staff who are able to meet both purposes?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I certainly agree with the noble Lord about the importance of the individual needs of the person at the centre. For too long—and part of this is a lack of integration—the needs of the person who receives, wants and needs that care and support have not been at the front. On his suggestion, I would just counsel waiting for the 10-year plan. It may not do exactly what the noble Lord says, but it will set out a way forward on how we will resolve such matters. I am sure that he will participate in further discussions about how we can get to the place that we all want.

Community Pharmacy Closures

Debate between Lord Lansley and Baroness Merron

Tuesday 28th January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lansley (Con)]

Further to that important point, will the Government guide ICBs to commission additional services from pharmacies? They have often not been commissioned with a sustainable funding model. Dispensing is not enough. They can provide important preventive services and minor illness services. However, they need the commissioning revenue to enable them to sustain their position.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

That point is understood, which is why I thought it important to bring to your Lordships’ House the announcement in the media release from my ministerial colleague Stephen Kinnock. As I mentioned in answer to an earlier question, integrated care boards have a role to play. They should—in fact, they are required to—have regard to the pharmaceutical needs assessment conducted every three years by local authorities. That ought to identify where there are gaps and allow consideration of how to fill any such gaps.

Health and Adult Social Care Reform

Debate between Lord Lansley and Baroness Merron

Tuesday 7th January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

As the House knows, my noble friend is a great campaigner on this issue. I can certainly assure her that the review will include exploring the needs of the 4.7 million unpaid carers who effectively hold the adult social care system together. On the point about the care workforce, we are already improving career pathways by expanding the national career structure, including new role categories. The suggestions my noble friend makes about a seamless service are quite right. We are a long way from that, but I hope we will be able to get to it, and the workforce will be key in that.

[Lord Lansley (Con)]

My Lords, may I tell the Minister that the Statement is not an accurate representation of what happened in 2009-10? More importantly, it is now over 13 years since Andrew Dilnot produced his report, and there have been many promises to implement it that have not been kept. There should be no further delay. The Minister should acknowledge that if there is further delay in implementing a social care cap on costs, many thousands more people will face the catastrophic loss of their life savings and earnings as a consequence of meeting those costs. Until we implement the cap on social care costs, we will not know whether it will deliver a market in providing insurance against long-term care costs, which in itself would make a significant contribution towards meeting some of the costs of social care in the future.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I understand the wish of many, myself included, for more urgent action. However, the reality is that acting in haste will not solve the problem, not least because of the depth of the difficulties we are looking at. The noble Lord is right that many promises have been made—a number by his own Government—but not fulfilled regarding what should happen on the cap. I reiterate the point I made earlier: while I appreciate that there are Members of your Lordships’ House who believe that Dilnot is the answer, it deals with just one aspect, and that is not what we need. As my noble friend just said, we need a comprehensive look at creating a more joined-up service that will work around people, rather than focusing on institutions or one particular problem.

NHS: Treatment of Children from Other Countries

Debate between Lord Lansley and Baroness Merron

Thursday 21st November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I will certainly ensure that officials take up the suggestion of the noble Baroness to explore possibilities.

[Lord Lansley (Con)]

My Lords, one of the reasons why people are envious of the NHS is because we are able to do things through the NHS which are not necessarily able to be supported in other countries by private medical insurance, and we have the benefit here of some of the finest clinicians in the world. That is something I am sure the Minister will want to focus on when she meets Professor Jeelani. There will doubtless be very specific ways in which he and his team might be helped, but could she bear in mind the fundamental principle that only about one in three million babies is in this condition and they have no hope other than to be treated by his excellent team? That is a responsibility, regardless of residence and those definitions, that we probably take on board through the NHS.

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I understand the point that the noble Lord makes and am sympathetic to it. He will also understand the need to ensure not only that we have the expertise here and use it correctly, but that the payment is in place so that the areas of excellence can also meet the requirements of other demands on them, including the reduction of waiting lists. He knows that it is a very delicate balance and that is why it is right that this is a trust-based approach, but I will certainly bear that in mind when I meet the professor.

Cancer: Older People

Debate between Lord Lansley and Baroness Merron

Tuesday 19th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I thank my noble friend for her confidence, and I will do my best. Decisions on screening, including the age ranges at which they operate, are made by the UK National Screening Committee. They have an upper and a lower age limit, which are based on evidence and kept under review. Current evidence does not support making changes to these ages. For breast screening, for example, self-referral is available for those over the age of 71 and for bowel screening it is available for those over 75. I confirm to her that this is all evidence-based, and we always keep an eye on the continuing evidence.

[Lord Lansley (Con)]

My Lords, I declare an interest in that I am a happy statistic of having survived more than five years after cancer treatment. But I know that I am not alone and that many others of the near 2 million cancer survivors have chronic conditions resulting either from cancer or from its treatment. Will the cancer strategy recognise and offer support to the many cancer survivors who have continuing chronic conditions resulting from their cancer?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I am glad that the noble Lord is, as he describes himself, a happy statistic. We are all grateful for that. I certainly share the view that there are a number of ongoing chronic conditions and impacts on other aspects, such as people’s mental health. The cancer strategy needs to look at this in its development, and I am grateful to him for highlighting it.

NHS: Independent Investigation

Debate between Lord Lansley and Baroness Merron

Tuesday 8th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I am sorry to hear of the circumstance that the noble Baroness raises. I agree with her about the pressure on GPs who, of course, are working harder than ever. We know, not just through the Darzi report but through much evidence, that discharge into the community has to take place at the right time and with the right support, and that is not the case at present. I will certainly take up the specific thing the noble Baroness asks for and look into it in far greater detail, because this is clearly a practice, as she described, that is not supporting patients or GPs but working against them.

[Lord Lansley (Con)]

A wholly different report could have been written based on the underpinning evidence. To that extent, the report may call itself independent but it was not objective. If the Minister subscribes to some of the hyperbolic criticisms of the 2012 Act, can she then explain how the NHS in Labour-run Wales—where the 2012 Act had no effect whatever—performed worse on almost every measure of performance? She said that output was what matters. Can she therefore confirm that productivity in the NHS rose after 2010, relative to the preceding period, up until the pandemic? Can she actually agree that it is outcomes that matter most? Will she say that the Government will maintain the progress that needs to be made in making the NHS accountable to the NHS outcomes framework that we established a decade ago?

Finally, to revert to what my noble friend and the noble Lord, Lord Scriven, rightly asked about, in the last decade the 10-year plan has been something that the NHS owned. There was the five-year forward view in 2014 and the 10-year plan in 2019, and now in 2024 the NHS should own the refresh of the 10-year plan, but I do not think that is going to be the case. Can the Minister explain why the Government are taking that earned autonomy away from the NHS?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I do not recognise the description of taking autonomy away; I appreciate that that is the noble Lord’s opinion. The National Health Service is so key to not just our health and well-being but the economic health of this country. In my opinion, it is something of a backbone of the country. It is right that the Government have made this an absolute priority and have commissioned a very honest report—I hear his criticisms of the report; they are not ones that I share—and that the Government are held accountable. That does not mean taking away autonomy from the NHS. I accept the noble Lord’s point that it is outcomes that matter, and perhaps I should have put that better because by output I mean things not just being done but actually being effective. I thank him for that point.

On frameworks and meeting obligations, one of the points made not just in the Darzi report but elsewhere is on how many of the standards are not being met. We will return to a number of the standards to ensure that people can feel that they know what they are going to get and within what timeframe, and that that will be absolutely possible. We are interested only in what works. We are not interested in scoring points; we are interested in improving the health and well-being of the nation, and I hope noble Lords will want to join with that.