Housing and Planning Bill
Debate between Lord Krebs and Lord Kennedy of Southwark
Lord Krebs
My Lords, I should declare that I am the chairman of the Adaptation Sub-Committee, to which the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, referred. Listening to what both she and the Minister said, I did not think there was too big a gap between their amendments. The Minister said that the review of policies would be robust and evidence-based. For me, part of the evidence base will be whether the policies are working on the ground. I hope that, when the Minister sums up, she will say that the review will also include looking at evidence of what is happening on the ground.
It is important to recognise that this is not just evidence from high flood risk areas. According to figures that I have been given from the insurance industry, 70% of claims for flood damage come from buildings outside high flood risk areas. This is because surface water flooding does not necessarily occur in the same place as coastal or fluvial flooding. If we could get confirmation on that point, it would be extremely reassuring both to me and to the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter.
On the question of timing, as the noble Baroness has said, my committee will submit its statutory report to Parliament next summer on the Government’s progress in preparing for the impacts of climate change. This includes the impacts of flood risk, which are likely to increase in future. In writing our report, it would be helpful for us to have the output of this review available at some time in the spring of 2017. I look forward to the Minister’s response.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark
My Lords, I was surprised that the Government rejected this amendment when it went to the other place. Ensuring that we build homes and have sustainable drainage is a positive thing. When we discussed this matter the other day, the amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, sought to remove the automatic right of connection to ensure that the drainage system would be considered and resolved early on and not left to the end. It was suggested that the amendment was unnecessary or unworkable. I am not convinced that either is the case.
The noble Baroness, Lady Williams of Trafford, proposed Motion E. This goes some way in the right direction. It commits the Government to,
“carry out a review concerning sustainable drainage in relation to the development of land in England”.
That is to be welcomed, but I am aware that a review is a review and it commits the Government to nothing beyond that. The noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, and the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, asked some pertinent questions about timescales—when the review will come before Parliament and what action will come out of it. When the Minister responds to the debate, it would be useful if she could cover these points.
Housing and Planning Bill
Debate between Lord Krebs and Lord Kennedy of Southwark
Lord Krebs (CB)
My Lords, I support the amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter. As she has said, it is meant to be helpful in the context of our legally binding commitment to reduce our greenhouse gas emissions. The important thing to remember is that the new houses which are to be built now will be around for a long time—probably 100 years or more. It is inevitable that over time, we will need to tighten our greenhouse gas emission standards and move towards a zero-carbon homes standard. If, in building them, we do not meeting that standard today, they will have to be retrofitted in future. It is all very well to say, as the noble Viscount did, that we will undertake a review, but in the time it takes to carry out that review, many homes will be built. We will be storing up trouble with the homes we build while carrying out yet another review.
In the other place, it was noted that this requirement would “slow down or prevent” the building of new homes. Let us look at the counterfactual: let us say that we do not implement this amendment and go ahead rapidly with building new homes, but that those new homes are not fit for purpose in the future. Surely, that cannot be a good principle. If we are to build new homes now, we should think about their long-term implications for both greenhouse gas emissions and, as the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, said, the energy bills of those who will live in them. Finally, we have the chance now to legislate to make greenhouse gas savings through this measure, and if we do not, the country will have to make them elsewhere. In the debates in Committee or Report, nobody has said, “Okay, we’re not going to make the savings here—but here’s where we are going to offer up savings elsewhere in the country”.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark
My Lords, Motion K1, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Parminter, is very welcome and if she wishes to test the opinion of the House, noble Lords on these Benches will support her. The issues raised in this amendment were of course debated in Committee and on Report. As we have heard many times, we are in the midst of a housing crisis. Not to build homes to a high standard that meets the challenges of which we are all aware, when that could be done at a minimal cost, just seems wrong. I do not understand the Government’s position at all. Theirs is a short-sighted policy through which they are cutting corners where they can.
The zero-carbon homes standard is important in delivering on our climate change commitments. As we heard in the previous debate, the cost of the building standards to achieve this and drive down energy bills could be £1,900 or even less. I do not understand why the Government do not want to move on this. All that will do is to leave people with higher fuel bills and the costs of retrofitting properties. That should not be necessary, and not taking action today would be wrong.
The Government’s “step too far” defence is just not compelling. They have not made a convincing case as to why this is not the desirable thing to do. It is puzzling that the Government do not want to build homes that are as energy-efficient as possible. As I have said before, on matters of public policy the Government should be striving to get the best possible outcome. If we do not agree to this amendment, in practice, people will pay a greater proportion of their income when moving to a new home than they need to. That would affect those on the lowest incomes—the poorest people—and nor would it be possible for the Government to reduce our carbon emissions.