Civil Service: Permanent Secretaries

Debate between Lord King of Bridgwater and Lord Strathclyde

Thursday 13th December 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Dubs]

My Lords—

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I think it is the turn of the Conservative Party.

[Lord King of Bridgwater]

I am not aware of any complaint from our side of the House about the selection that Mr Jack Straw made on a short list of three which he insisted on having, for which he perfectly properly said that he took final responsibility for his department. Are not those Permanent Secretaries, having been appointed, also entitled to expect that the person who makes the final decision stays in office for slightly more than one year? In the case of both the previous Government and the present Government, can we see a little bit more continuity in Ministers than we have had in recent years?

Patrick Finucane

Debate between Lord King of Bridgwater and Lord Strathclyde

Wednesday 12th December 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Maginnis, brings his own particular view of these issues. Indeed, Sir Desmond looked at the accusation that Patrick Finucane was a member of PIRA, and on the basis of the evidence that he saw he concluded that he was not. I know that that was not the entire point that the noble Lord was making, but the Government have nothing to add to Sir Desmond’s conclusions on this point.

I am bound to say that the question of PIRA membership is not in this case particularly relevant. The point that was made in the Statement and as a result of the review is that the state should not have been involved in Patrick Finucane’s murder. It is on that basis that the state has made the apology.

[Lord King of Bridgwater]

My Lords, I declare an interest. I was Secretary of State for Northern Ireland when Patrick Finucane was murdered and I was Secretary of State for Defence when the possible prosecution of Brian Nelson arose. I join my noble friend in recognising —as he did in repeating the Prime Minister’s Statement, and as we all must—that this was an appalling crime of which we should all be ashamed. It should not have happened and it is particularly appalling because there is clear evidence of significant collusion. It was an appalling crime at what the Statement calls a dark and violent time in Northern Ireland. I was not surprised at the contributions of the noble Lords, Lord Maginnis and Lord Alderdice. The House has had the opportunity to sense some of the tensions that so rapidly rise to the surface, and which one can now see on the streets of Belfast.

That is in no sense an excuse for what happened. One of the things that I most resent about this is that the appalling things that happened in this case sully the reputation of very brave security forces who, over all those years and with huge personal suffering to them and their families, stood to protect the Province of Ulster, Northern Ireland, against the risk of total disaster. We should recognise that.

I take exception to one element of the Statement repeated by my noble friend: namely, the phrase “state involvement”, which is now current. I understand why it has arisen. It gives the impression that somehow the Government planned the murder of Patrick Finucane. It is an appalling concept that I as Secretary of State somehow authorised it. Of course, that is totally untrue. In my time I committed myself to trying to save every life that I possibly could on both sides of the community, however people were involved.

What is also clear is that there were incidents in which people were in clear breach of their orders or instructions. The Statement claims that there was no co-ordinated legal basis for the employment of agents. I draw the attention of the House to something in Sir Desmond de Silva’s report which states that agents were being handled at that time under the strict instruction of the Commander Land Forces Northern Ireland, Tony Jeapes, that it was unlawful for any person to authorise any illegal act, and that if there was any possibility of an agent becoming involved in criminality, the assistant chief of staff was to be informed through the commanding officer of the FRU so that preventive measures could be taken. Mr Nelson’s handler was acting in total breach of that instruction at the time. I should say that some of the agents, informers or touts—they go under different names in Northern Ireland—were incredibly brave people who saved an enormous number of lives. The difficulty of handling them should not be underestimated.

This is an impressive report. One or two people have already passed judgment on it. Nobody can have read it yet except the Prime Minister, who obviously was briefed on it. I have only managed to read the executive summary. There is an enormous amount in the report. It needs further study and I will not pay great attention to any comments until people have had a chance to read the report through and then address the issue of whether there should be a further public inquiry. I have great respect for the noble Baroness and understand why she said that a public inquiry might ensure that we would get to the truth. There are no grounds for saying that until we have seen how close we think Sir Desmond de Silva has got to the total truth of the matter, and considered what could be achieved by going for a further public inquiry. This is what challenged the previous Government and why, nine years on, there has been no progress. This is what they were wrestling with. It is difficult to see what the benefit of a public inquiry would be, and I can see some real disadvantages, not least because there should be prosecutions arising from some of the things in the report. If we go for public inquiry, it would probably prevent that being possible.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I very much agree with what my noble friend said about the public inquiry. He has heard what the Prime Minister and I said on that question. My noble friend started by saying that this was an appalling crime. He is right. The key thing for us to remember—this is another thing he said—is that the accusation of state collusion sullies the memory of all those individuals who fought to defend democracy without having to go down this route. That is what makes this so appalling.

Of course I entirely agree with my noble friend that this is a lengthy report that has taken many months to compile. It builds on the work of previous investigations, including that of a distinguished Member of this House. There were a million pages of documents. This is the most comprehensive of comprehensive reports and it requires time to look at it.

On the question of Ministers’ knowledge, de Silva is very clear. He says there is:

“no evidence whatsoever to suggest that any Government Minister had foreknowledge of Patrick Finucane's murder ... nor that they were subsequently informed of any intelligence that any agency of the State had received about the threat to his life”.

There is no evidence at all that any Ministers had any knowledge at the time of Nelson’s targeting activity, or that they were encouraged or directed in any collusive activity with the UDA. That is a very strong statement.

Procedure of the House

Debate between Lord King of Bridgwater and Lord Strathclyde

Tuesday 24th July 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord King of Bridgwater]

Can we get a better understanding of this issue? My own memory goes back to two excellent Ministers of Trade: Cecil Parkinson, who is now a Member of this House, and Richard Needham—both of whom will be familiar to many Members of this House. I was rude to them if I ever saw them, because their job was not to be here. At a time when we needed trade and exports, they needed to be out and about promoting British business. The other House respected the fact that they had to lead delegations and had greater impact outside. The more they did, the better they did it. They were very effective Ministers of Trade at a rather successful time for the British economy. If ever we needed a Minister of Trade to be active overseas, it is now. I thought this House would appreciate that.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, my noble friend puts it extremely well. In answer to the noble Lord, Lord Barnett, a Written Ministerial Statement on the loan guarantee scheme was made by my noble friend Lord Sassoon because it was a Treasury matter. The noble Lord was able to ask him a Question a few minutes ago.

G8 and NATO Summits

Debate between Lord King of Bridgwater and Lord Strathclyde

Wednesday 23rd May 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, all I can say is that our support for Afghanistan, particularly in terms of development through DfID, will continue according to needs and the criteria that are set. What was important about the Chicago summit was a recognition that, post-2014-15, there would still need to be substantial financial support for the security forces of Afghanistan, hence the setting up of this fund to raise over $1 billion. The United Kingdom has fully pledged its support for this and has committed to spending £100 million a year, at least for three years post-2014.

[Lord King of Bridgwater]

I join my noble friend in his tribute to the great courage of our Armed Forces. Is it not true to say that, in a very real way, the objective that they were sent there to achieve has been achieved, which was to make sure that Afghanistan did not become a future base for al-Qaeda? In that connection, I challenge something in the Statement, which has linked together the most serious terrorist plots that are supposed to have had links with Afghanistan and Pakistan. I wonder how recent any links have been with Afghanistan. I am sure that there is a real problem about Pakistan and a real problem about the Yemen, but I personally believe that the Afghan Government and the ethnic groups that support them, as well as the Taliban, will all stand together in being absolutely determined that al-Qaeda will never get back into Afghanistan because of the problems and disasters that it caused.

Perhaps I could add one further point. The noble Baroness and the noble Lord, Lord Dholakia, raised the issue of Iran. The noble Lord, Lord Dholakia, encouraged full parliamentary consultation before any action is taken. That tends not to be possible in the real world, so let me start the consultation now by saying that I think that the maximum restraint should be exercised in an extremely difficult situation and that every possible muscle of the British Government should try to ensure that there is no ill advised and extremely dangerous military action that could only make a difficult situation worse.

Libya

Debate between Lord King of Bridgwater and Lord Strathclyde

Monday 5th September 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Desai, has come up with a good and sensible suggestion. I understand from my noble friend Lord Howell of Guildford that this idea has been raised by others too, and that it is being studied to see what experience we can bring from the Commonwealth in order to help the people and the transitional Government.

[Lord King of Bridgwater]

My Lords, in relation to that last point, there is a very clear emphasis in the Statement that this is now increasingly a matter for the Libyan people to resolve. We must be extremely careful not to suggest that we are going to teach them how to do things, no matter how wise the advice that may come from other quarters. In that respect, if one looks at the unhappy situation now in Iraq, one can see that merely getting rid of a bad dictator is not the end of the problem at all. The challenge that is now faced by the new Libyan Administration, who I think have impressed many of us by their clarity and integrity at the present time, is absolutely enormous. If one considers that one of the core sources of the Arab spring has been the terrible shortage of jobs and unemployment in those territories, the challenge that a new Libyan Government will face—they are facing this in Egypt and in other territories now—is very daunting indeed. Money would at least help. In that connection, what is the situation at the moment with regard to the oil plants and refineries? Having said in the Statement what a rich country Libya potentially is, can the noble Lord say how soon those are likely to be able to come into fruitful use and benefit the Libyan economy?

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, I agree very much with what my noble friend said, which is why the support coming from the United Kingdom is support and not a lecture on how to do things. I do not think that the noble Lord, Lord Desai, was saying in his question, “Here is a model—take it”; it is very much a matter of co-operation and advice when the Libyan people need it. But it is their show and my noble friend was right to raise that.

We of course welcome the plan for the formation of an inclusive interim Government. We have noted that the NTC’s constitutional declaration provides a clear plan for conducting the political transition in the spirit of unifying the Libyan people and reconciling those who have been on both sides in the current conflict. We have given a commitment to support the Libyan-led transition and the rebuilding process to establish a democratic, independent and united Libya. We will do everything we can to help the Libyan people achieve those goals, but it must come from them.

My noble friend was right also to mention money, because, as I pointed out in the Statement, Libya is a rich country. I gather that the damage to the oilfields, gas pipelines and refineries is relatively small, and there is no reason why the oil and gas should not be flowing in the refineries again very soon.

Public Confidence in the Media and the Police

Debate between Lord King of Bridgwater and Lord Strathclyde

Wednesday 20th July 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, we are very happy to work closely with the noble and learned Baroness and others in her party to plug that gap if we can identify it.

[Lord King of Bridgwater]

I strongly agree with the noble Lord, Lord Gilbert, that the tone of the Prime Minister’s Statement in the House of Commons was entirely appropriate. I strongly endorse what the noble Lord, Lord Dear, has said about leadership; it is extremely important. There is another implication flowing from these rapidly moving events and it relates to the comment made by the noble Lord, Lord Gilbert, about fit and proper persons. This might touch the headlines shortly were Mr Murdoch to decide, for various reasons, that he did not want to continue with his news media in this country. The issue of fit and proper persons wishing to inherit may become a major issue.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, this is an extremely good point and one which is well taken by the Government.

NATO Summit

Debate between Lord King of Bridgwater and Lord Strathclyde

Monday 22nd November 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, my noble friend Lord Ashdown is right. We have long said that the solution to the conflict in Afghanistan is not military. There has to be more to it, combining politics within Afghanistan itself with the support of aid, trade and all the other things that make up creating and building up a country in the modern world. I would not read it as such a difference between our own objectives and those of the United States. In fact, our objectives are not far away from those of NATO and, this weekend, there is an aspirational target for NATO to have achieved the end of conflict by 2014. The fact that we have taken this position on 2015 will not be missed by other countries, which will be asking their own leaders whether it is appropriate that they too should set a similar target.

[Lord King of Bridgwater]

Will the Minister reinforce the point made by my noble friend Lord Ashdown, in his perceptive article in the Times today, that if we are to honour the tremendous sacrifice of many of our young men who have committed themselves to the future of Afghanistan, the need for urgency in the political drive is critical? The countries that need to be involved in this undertaking—Britain, India, Pakistan, Iran, China and Russia—all have their own angle and their own interests in what might happen there. Who is really going to drive this forward? Every one of those countries has an interest and will be disappointed if the conflict there turns into civil war. Who is going to reconcile the situation and drive the political initiative forward?

[Lord Strathclyde]

In the first instance, my Lords, it will be NATO, supported by its key members. My noble friend is right in mentioning all the countries that have a direct interest, including the people of Afghanistan itself. As I said in response to an earlier question, we have all been clear, including the Afghanistan Government, that members of the Taliban and many other groups who want to talk, to play a part in government and to be part of the process of reconciliation are the ones who need to renounce violence, reject al-Qaeda and support the constitutional framework. It is in all our interests that that should be so.

Strategic Defence and Security Review

Debate between Lord King of Bridgwater and Lord Strathclyde

Tuesday 19th October 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Strathclyde]

I am delighted that the noble Lord welcomes the announcement on dealing with cyberterrorism. It is an important new threat which we take seriously. However, I do not agree with his remarks which gave the impression that there was no consultation and no discussion with anyone at any stage. Of course there was. There had to be in order to be able to make the decisions that we have made today.

We have been in Afghanistan since 2003; we are aiming to leave by 2015. Given that we will have been there for 12 years and that we have put enormous resources into training the local police and the army, it is fair enough to have given a five-year warning of our intention to leave. However, we will not leave Afghanistan completely. DfID, with its enormous budget, will clearly wish to play a role.

There will be a gap in air cover after the retirement of the Harriers, which are due to be disbanded by April 2011. We take no pleasure in making that decision; it means that one of our carriers will immediately be withdrawn. However, we believe that our land-based runways and overflying rights will give us the global reach by jet aircraft that we need.

[Lord King of Bridgwater]

My Lords, many of us will have found it very difficult to listen to the chastisements that my noble friend has received from the other side of the House when some noble Lords here bear a very heavy responsibility for the mess that we are now in. Previous Ministers placed orders with money that they did not have. That now threatens employment and has made inevitable the Statement which my noble friend has had to repeat today. Anybody who studied this matter with any interest knew that, once those carriers were ordered—I think that it was in the time of the noble Lord, Lord Robertson—it became a shambolic programme from then on. We still do not have any carriers. Everybody knew the pressure, problems and lumpiness that it would create for the naval budget. The difficulties that my noble friend and the Prime Minister have had to cope with are simply enormous. The noble Lord, Lord Robertson, will know that his strategic defence review never said that we were going to be in Afghanistan or that we were going to fight a second Iraq war. The then Government made no adequate attempt to adjust the policy and the resources to meet those new demands. We now have to get the resources in place based on our best estimate of the risks that we face and then, if the situation changes and the unexpected happens, be ready to change as well.

[Lord Strathclyde]

My Lords, the House will know just how grateful I am to hear my noble friend, with all the common sense that he speaks born of experience and of having given these warnings over many years while we were in opposition. I entirely agree with him that we must now look to the future, deal with the damage of the past and focus our best resources on getting the best result.