Holocaust Memorial Bill

Lord King of Bridgwater Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 11th March 2025 Grand Committee

[Lord Pickles (Con)]

My Lords, I think there is general agreement that there should be an independent, stand-alone body. I have no doubt that, once this Bill becomes an Act, that is one of the first things the Government will do. I say this very gently and with no criticism intended, because part of the process of planning is that you can object to things and use all force and every possibility to slow things down. However, one reason it has cost so much is the delays, which are caused by people exercising their democratic rights. I do not complain about that whatever.

However, the question is whether these things should be in the Bill. Frankly, I doubt that they should. With due respect to the right reverend Prelate, I am a little queasy about limiting in the Holocaust Bill the number of days in which we commemorate 6 million dead. Why are we not limiting the number of dog shows, open-air cinemas and organised picnics and exercise in the parks? It looks peculiar that we should pick on the Holocaust and Jews in this Bill. I urge the right reverend Prelate to think again about this and whether we can use common sense to find ways to ensure that people can enjoy the park. It looks appallingly bad for the Holocaust to be picked out.

I say in the gentlest way that I do not recognise any of noble Lords’ descriptions of the academic board. It is only right that we ensure that this is a balanced memorial and learning centre, which does not glorify the British Empire but shows what happened during the Holocaust and our reaction to it, warts and all. That seems a reasonable thing. Frankly, all the various plugs have to be pulled, because we cannot spend public money on what goes inside and start to employ a major director until we have authority to build this. That is not just subject to this Bill; it will also be subject to a further planning consideration. We are some way from being able to appoint people to commit public expenditure to do that, so I am very dubious that any of this should be in the Bill. The Government have made a number of commitments on all three of these things, and they should be made to deliver on them.

[Lord King of Bridgwater (Con)]

My Lords, I spoke on the first day in Committee to make clear my support for the memorial but my great concern about the learning centre. It seems increasingly clear that there is an extraordinary vagueness about what it will be made of, how it will be run and how long it will take to produce. I pressed the Minister for an indication of any quotations we might have, any companies that might be willing to build it and any idea of what their costs might be. He very kindly replied to say,

“the simple answer is that we will seek tenders for the main construction”.—[Official Report, 4/3/25; col. GC 68.]

That means that the Government have no idea, either, what this might actually cost.

Holocaust Memorial Bill

Lord King of Bridgwater Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 4th March 2025 Grand Committee

[Lord Sterling of Plaistow (Con)]

My Lords, I have always felt that this is a most appropriate Room in which to have this debate—it tells you everything. Also, in Prayers today, there were several mentions of Jacob; those of you who were there may remember.

I am afraid that I have a different viewpoint. I will not talk about anything to do with construction whatever, although some of your Lordships know that I know quite a lot about it.

I am the second generation born in this country after the pogrom which happened in 1880, from which my great-grandmother managed to escape. She got to this country and some of our relatives went to New York. What I wanted to say was that when one thinks about the pogroms then, and I take my own family, we finished up here. This country allowed us to be free and to live; it is a great country and we are proud to be part of it. But I also know that some of my family did not get out and finished up in Auschwitz. I am not going to go into what has been happening for the last few thousand years; we could spend years on that.

I was approached early on by friends in both Houses, and the comment which was made to me—I see the Father of the other place back there; we talked about this years ago—is that there are nearly 3,000 people in the Parliament complex, and they love this park for what it is and how they enjoy it. At that stage, it was said to me, “Would you be prepared to get involved, because the problem is that there are many in both Houses who actually are nervous, afraid and very worried that if they come out publicly to state that they are not happy with this park being used for that purpose, they will be considered anti-Semitic”. So, a dear friend and I, the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, of all people—she is now facing me—talked about the pros and cons. I thought I knew what I believed in, and what I managed to achieve and not achieve, and the mistakes—all the usual things all of us around this table have made—but she knew the law. I did not know the law.

As a result, there was a major article in the Times—your Lordships can look it up if you want. It was supported by many people on the basis that I said that there were at least four memorials in this country—in fact, in the London area. If you go into Hyde Park, you will see one there, and the best and most important one of the lot is in the Imperial War Museum.

I remember when our late head rang me up, the marshal—sadly, he has now died—and he said, “Jeffrey, can I have your advice? Could you come along and have a chat?” I said, “Yes”. He said, “I’m seriously thinking that I would like to have built in the Imperial War Museum a whole part dedicated to what happened”. If any of your Lordships have not been there and seen how it is been done, you should go. It was supported by a very large number of the Jewish population, of course, and what is even more splendid is that many people who are not Jewish supported it. So you have that.

Also, from the way I am built, you cannot destroy ideas—they are impossible to destroy. You do not need things such as memorials to think about this. You can go out in the morning and look up in the trees and think about it yourself. I have never felt you can destroy it. I have to tell your Lordships, speaking personally, that I love that park.

I come back to the concern about danger, and taking into account anti-Semitism, which has got even worse. In the days to come, as I have said many times before, we could live to regret it if there is any form of memorial in that park; in practice, that is very dangerous. With my other hat on, I am very involved in what happens on the military side on terrorism and so forth. It is from both sides of the park. If you have 500 children, shall we say, when the whole thing is built and the schools come along, and we say, “Right, you can come there”, and there are kids from all over the world, you only have to get somebody to drop a satchel and blow the bloody thing to smithereens. But more importantly, for those noble Lords who know, we have only to look outside at the protection we have here; somebody could come along and fire something into that area. We could therefore live to regret totally what danger there could be.

I strongly advocate that we have these wonderful memorials, but when you speak to people in Newcastle and so forth, they are not even aware of or interested in it. During the war, as we know, and even earlier in 1938 or 1939, the Government here knew that there were problems. They knew what was happening in Poland and other areas. It all got back, but the key was: “We are willing; this is a fight for world survival”. I hope the Committee does not mind me saying that I like the idea that we have that lovely park, which people enjoy. In the morning, there are young families with their children and babies wandering along there and enjoying it. I would like it left like that.

[Lord King of Bridgwater (Con)]

My Lords, I rise to express my great concern, because I am a strong supporter of a memorial and a learning centre. But I am also pretty clear that if the plans continue on their present course—as it is now nine years since this started on its way—then God knows how many more years may be involved, with all the controversy and concerns about the proposals for the learning centre. The original proposal was for it just to be a memorial and then, as we know, a learning centre was added to it. Since then, other opportunities have come up of various Jewish institutions and facilities that might be suitable. Meanwhile, the learning centre itself has shrunk, because of the obvious problems of cost involved.

Perhaps my only justification for getting to my feet at all is that I know a little about what is going on in the construction industry in London at present. I would be interested to know what quotations there are around for building this learning centre. What I know is that with events elsewhere—Gaza and other things certainly have not helped—any company invited to undertake this is going to look at a very different scale of figures from what it might have looked at a year or two ago.

I declare my interests as in the register; I am involved in quite a major construction activity in London at present, and I know something about the problems that the industry is in. It is not in good shape, and I think this will be very difficult. If you can get somebody to quote who thinks it will be all right on the night, the problems could then emerge in trying to stick to those figures and seeing what sort of money might be involved. That is why I support the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, who has spelt it out. It will not be that figure; there is no chance of anything being built for remotely near that.

As I say, I speak from some personal experience, having seen what is happening to quotations being put in for works in London at present. I admire the noble Lord, Lord Pickles, very much and his objective, which has my full support, is to have a good memorial and a good learning centre. But let us have a decent-sized learning centre, and one that can be built without all sorts of reservations about whether it can be done.

One of the comments made was that we need to get on with this or the few remaining Holocaust survivors will not be around to see it opened. How many have died in the last nine years while we have been trying to put this project forward? It is embarrassing for both Governments. My Government put it forward; the Labour Government felt the duty to pick it up again. It is not right to offer a bet on this, but it is almost impossible to see this project going ahead as it is at the moment. If we could start again on the learning centre, there are opportunities which could be quickly achieved without too much controversy. We could then get our memorial and learning centre achieving both the objectives that we all want to see.

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[Lord King of Bridgwater (Con)]

Can I ask the Minister something before he sits down? Does he have evidence that there are companies that are willing to quote for carrying out this construction? What is the situation over there?

[Lord Khan of Burnley (Lab)]

My Lords, the simple answer is that we will seek tenders for the main construction contracts once planning consent is secured but, to use the noble Lord’s words, we need to get on with it.

Somerset (Structural Changes) Order 2022

Lord King of Bridgwater Excerpts

Wednesday 9th March 2022 Grand Committee

[The Minister of State, Home Office and Department for Levelling Up, Housing & Communities (Lord Greenhalgh) (Con)]

My Lords, this order was laid before this House on 24 January 2022. The other place approved it on 28 February. If approved by this House and made, it will implement a proposal submitted by Somerset County Council for a single unitary for the whole of the Somerset County Council area.

In my introductory words for the Cumbria order, I set out the Government’s views on the benefits of strong local leadership. This order will establish for the people of Somerset a new single unitary council. Implementing this proposal and establishing this unitary authority will enable stronger leadership and far greater engagement at the strategic level and with its communities at the most local level. While Somerset is not among the areas for an early county deal, we will continue discussions with Somerset about a future devolution deal. The reform for which the order provides can help pave the way for such a deal.

I set out the full detail of the process for all three areas undergoing unitarisation in my speech regarding Cumbria. I will not repeat the detail of the invitation, criteria or dates of the statutory consultation here but will highlight the matters specific to Somerset. When issuing the invitation to the principal councils in Somerset to submit proposals for unitary local government, the then Secretary of State, my right honourable friend the Member for Newark, Robert Jenrick, also wrote to the neighbouring unitary councils of Bath and North East Somerset and North Somerset. Two locally-led proposals for local government reorganisation in Somerset were received in December 2020, one for a single unitary council and one for two unitary councils.

Turning now to the responses to the statutory consultation, we received almost 5,500 responses on the Somerset proposals. Of them, 5,167 responses, 94% of the total, were from residents living in the area affected. Both proposals received of a good deal of support. Some 3,000 residents, or 57% of those who responded, supported the two unitary councils option, while some 2,000 residents, or 35% of those who responded, supported the single unitary option. Some 72 % of respondents from the business sector supported the single unitary option and 88% of respondents from other public service providers also supported that option.

The district councils in Somerset ran a poll of residents about the unitary proposals. My right honourable friend had regard to the results of that poll and the representations he received about the way it was conducted. In essence, the poll showed similar levels of resident support as the consultation. Namely, there was a good deal of support for both proposals, with greater support from residents for the two unitary proposal.

However, I stress that the decision about the proposals is not a decision on the basis of any form of poll or referendum, nor is it on the basis of which proposal is most popular among a group of consultation respondents. It is a decision on the basis of the criteria to which I have referred and which were set out in the invitation of 9 October 2020.

Noble Lords will recall that my right honourable friend the then Secretary of State announced his decision on the proposals. A ministerial Statement setting this out was made on 21 July 2021, which I repeated in this House. In reaching this decision my right honourable friend made a balanced judgment assessing both proposals against the three criteria to which I have referred. He also had regard to all representations received, including responses to the consultation, and to all other relevant information available to him. He concluded that the two unitary proposal did not meet the criterion of improving local government and service delivery across the area. He also concluded that it did not meet the credible geography criterion. He concluded that the single unitary proposal for Somerset met all three of the criteria set out in the invitation of 9 October.

The Government believe that there is a powerful case for implementing this locally-led proposal for change. It will improve local government by enhancing social care and safeguarding services through closer connection with related services such as housing, leisure and benefits. It will improve local government by offering opportunities for improved strategic decision-making in areas such as housing, planning and transport. It will provide improvements to local partnership working with other public sector bodies and generate savings, estimated by the county council to be £52.6 million over five years. It will preserve service delivery over a county-wide area that has an established local identity and is easily understood by residents and provide a single point of contact so that residents, businesses and local communities will be able to access all council services from one place. If noble Lords approve this order, there will be, from 1 April 2023, a single unitary council for Somerset delivering the improvements I have just outlined.

We have prepared this order in constructive and collaborative discussion with all the councils concerned. I would like to take this opportunity to thank everyone involved in this process. Our discussions with the councils included the transitional and electoral arrangements. They are key to how the councils will drive forward implementation. Where there has been unanimous agreement between all the councils, we have adopted their preferred approach. Where there were different views about the detailed provisions, my right honourable friend the Secretary of State considered all differing views and reached a decision accordingly.

Turning now to the detail of the order, I shall highlight the key provisions. The order provides that on 1 April 2023 the districts of Mendip, Sedgemoor, Somerset West and Taunton and South Somerset will be abolished. The councils of those districts will be wound up and dissolved. In their place, their functions will transfer to the new unitary Somerset Council. The order also provides for appropriate transitional arrangements including that in May 2022 there will be elections for the new unitary council, which will assume its full powers from 1 April 2023. These elections will be on the basis of a 110-member authority with 55 two-member electoral divisions. Subsequent elections to the unitary council will be in May 2027 and every four years thereafter. We expect that the Local Government Boundary Commission for England will undertake a full electoral review before the May 2027 elections. Parish council elections due in May 2023 will be brought forward to May 2022 to align with the unitary council election cycle. A duty will be placed on existing councils to co-operate during the transitional period until 1 April 2023.

As I set out in the previous debates, we intend, if this order is approved and made, to issue a direction. This direction would ensure that the new unitary council has appropriate oversight of the commitments that predecessor councils may enter into during the transitional period and which the new unitary council will take on from 1 April 2023. Before issuing any such direction I will be inviting councils’ views on a draft.

In conclusion, through this order we seek to replace the existing local government structures that were set up in 1974 in Somerset with a new council that will be able to deliver high-quality, sustainable local services to the people of Somerset. This council will be able to provide effective leadership at the strategic and most local levels. All the existing councils have made clear they share these aims and are committed to the very best services for Somerset residents. This order delivers this, and on that basis, I commend this order to the Committee. I beg to move.

[Lord King of Bridgwater (Con)]

My Lords—

[Baroness Pinnock (LD)]

My Lords, I understood that we ought to be here at the outset of a debate. I do not want to cause an issue, but I would like clarification.

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[Baroness Pinnock (LD)]

I am very happy for the noble Lord speak. He has been here most of the evening waiting for this to come, but I was seeking clarification because we do not want to set a precedent for other issues.

[Lord King of Bridgwater (Con)]

The noble Baroness is of course right. I apologise to those present. The speed with which the Minister finished off North Yorkshire completely fooled me about when he was about to start on Somerset. I thank the Committee because as the only representative of Somerset here, and having represented a Somerset constituency in Parliament for 30 years, I would like to comment on the changes that are taking place without the Minister looking too worried that I am going to seek to overturn the proposals that he has made. He can relax on that.

In my earlier career, I was, among other long-forgotten things, Minister for Local Government for three and a half years and I was in the Department of the Environment, as it was then. My noble friend Lord Heseltine and I worked together in that field looking at the activities of local government.

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[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, this is almost like a well-oiled relay. First, we had my noble friend Lord Jopling stepping in to provide covering fire. Then we had my noble friend Lord King of Bridgwater, with his Somerset credentials, stepping in to cover my lack of them. I went to a school in Somerset once—I think Blundell’s is in Somerset—and I did a prize-giving there, but that was about the first time.

[Lord King of Bridgwater (Con)]

Blundell’s is in Devon.

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

Is it in Devon? Gosh, that was not particularly good; I am probably not best placed to sell the virtues of Somerset. I wanted to say that I learn something every time, such as the fact that my noble friend was a Local Government Minister under the noble Lord, Lord Heseltine. You succeeded him, did you not? That was your first Cabinet position and you continued to serve with great distinction, for almost a decade, in the Cabinets of Margaret Thatcher and John Major. Each time I see my noble friend I am reminded of “Spitting Image”; he has not changed a bit in all those years, I have to say.

Most importantly, my noble friend raised the issue that Governments need to be strategic but also deliver. As someone who has served in the town hall, in City Hall and now as a Minister, I absolutely recognise that. It is possible to do both. It is possible to be strategic and focus on delivery. That is what local leadership is all about. That is what I would say in response to my noble friend.

It has been very difficult to listen to some of the passages from the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, because I was being lectured by someone from Yorkshire about Somerset and about Hammersmith and Fulham. In response to her and the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, I would say that the process was done properly. The key point is that both options had a great deal of support in Somerset. As I set out in some detail for the first statutory instrument, the three criteria are considered in the round. Residents are central to the criteria that have led to this order, in the sense that this reform is all about better delivery of services to the residents of Somerset.

Before I conclude, I will just say that the electoral arrangements are clearly for an election in May 2022. That was proposed by the Somerset councils. There will be a review by the Local Government Boundary Commission for England before the second election in 2027.

This has widespread support from residents, local businesses, and the voluntary and community sector in Somerset. I commend the order to the Committee.