Business of the House

Lord Kilclooney Excerpts

Thursday 4th June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Stoneham of Droxford (LD)]

My Lords, as a representative of the usual channels, I also join in congratulating the staff on all the work they have done to get us to where we will be next week. It has been an amazing effort and has exceeded most of our expectations about what could be achievable in the time. I thank them.

It is very important not only that the House moves forward to normality as soon as it can, but that we have the possibility of retreat if the virus strikes again in London. The role of the Lords in the next few months will be very important: not only do we have scrutiny of all the legislation coming through as a result of the crisis, we then have an important period when all the legislation associated with the end of the transition period—when our final retreat from the EU will take place—comes to the House. It could not be a worse time for this country to be standing alone, without accountability of the Government on the arrangements for which they will be responsible.

The Lords has moved in the past month from sitting from three days to four days and we are now sitting from 11 am until 7 pm pretty much normally, so terrific progress has been made in returning this House to normality so that we are now almost fully engaged in the proper legislative process. The usual channels accept that the Government are under extreme pressure to get legislation through, not only in time for the end of the year, but on their whole general election programme. I therefore join in the remarks that my noble friend Lord Newby made on allowances, because the House is not yet operating fully effectively. One reason for that is the distortions of the interim allowance system. Too many people are speaking because that is the only way that they can earn their allowance. We have a ridiculous situation today when there is an important debate on the implications of the coronavirus and we are limited to two minutes. There is another debate that is almost as important on Hong Kong and noble Lords are limited to one minute. That is ridiculous and a denial of the scrutiny role that we should have in this House. This is not the first time; it has been going on for a number of weeks. As a result, with such extreme time limits, far too many good people are not bothering to speak, so we are not hearing their contributions. We must address this.

There is also a PR problem. Each time we make minor changes to the interim system, we get even more criticism, which undermines the House’s reputation. It will get worse unless we resolve it. We have had nearly three months of an interim system and we need to address it. It is important to do that so that we value the work that we are doing in this House and it is recognised. We must deal with the financial problems that we are creating for a small number of people and with the implication that the House is brought into disrepute every time we make a minor adjustment.

Although we obviously support the hybrid Parliament and all the moves that have been taken today, we fear that unless the allowance system is dealt with, some of this good work will be undermined. We need to have that top of the agenda for the commission in the next couple of weeks so that we can reform the interim system before the end of this month.

[Lord Kilclooney (CB)]

My Lords, I thank the Leader of the House for her statement and I associate myself with colleagues from all the other parties’ praise for the staff and the way they have reorganised the facilities in the building. However, I find it rather difficult walking around the Corridors getting lost and being told to keep to the left all the time. Politically, that sends a funny message to me, coming from Northern Ireland.

I have one brief question about the voting system. I can understand that those who are participating in Virtual Proceedings and will vote remotely, what about those colleagues who are here in the House, personally, in hybrid sessions? Will they vote in the normal, traditional manner?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I thank noble Lords for their contributions, and I thank the noble Baroness for her best wishes to my right honourable friend. Like her, I hope very much that he has bad hay fever as opposed to anything else. I also assure her that I will reiterate to the Front Bench the importance of addressing points put to them. I know they all take their responsibilities extremely seriously and I thank them for all their hard work and the dedication they have shown over the difficult few weeks we have had.

Noble Lords asked various questions about the hybrid House. The Procedure Committee will meet regularly to keep the processes under review and will of course update guidance when necessary. During this whole process, noble Lords have been putting ideas to the Procedure Committee, which are also passed on through the relevant party groups. We all welcome that. During Procedure Committee meetings a number of suggestions have been made by Back-Bench Peers about how to improve processes. I continue to encourage noble Lords across the House to do that.

I hope that we have shown our ability to adapt and improve proceedings. Although they are by no means perfect, things have improved over time and I think that we finish our solely virtual proceedings in a much better state than when we started. Indeed, our move from virtual to hybrid is another example of where we are adapting and moving forward. As public health guidance changes and we can look to move our processes forward we are doing so. I certainly hope that we have shown that we can adapt and will continue to do so. Having said that, as I said earlier, we have to remain compliant with public health guidance. The noble Lord, Lord Newby, pointed that out. We will keep things under review and keep trying to move things forward, since I know we all want to return to real normality as and when that is safely possible.

The noble Lord asked about interventions. This was discussed at the Procedure Committee and it was decided that, for hybrid proceedings, there should be parity between Members who take part remotely and those who take part physically. As the noble Baroness rightly said, Members have got used to our Virtual Proceedings, so I think that as we get more used to the hybrid proceedings and see how they work, we will all become more comfortable with them. This issue has certainly been raised by Members across the House, and I am sure it is something to which we will return, to see how we can do it within the confines of the broadcasting and administrative help and support that we need.

The noble Lord also asked about participant numbers. We will be able to increase the number of participants for things such as Second Readings because we will retain the limit of 50 Members participating virtually and there will be a limit of up to 30 Members in the physical proceedings; the number of contributors will therefore increase to 80.

Again, I thank all staff and the Clerk of the Parliaments, and I stress that there are restraints on what we are doing. This is not an attempt to stop Members participating fully, but we have to recognise the incredible work that is going on, and the very long hours that are being put in, to help us do what we are doing. We are—I am sure the Clerk of the Parliaments does not need to nod—pushing the boundaries in what we are asking to be done, but we have to appreciate and understand that there are real constraints. This is not about shutting things down; this is about practicalities. As the noble Lord said, the letters from the Clerk of the Parliaments try to explain the nuts and bolts of what is going on, and I hope that reassures him that that is the situation we are in.

On remote voting, all voting will be done remotely whether noble Lords are virtual or within the House. Next week, everyone will be trained. We will make sure that a lot of information is available, but all voting will be done remotely, as that is the simplest system. It also means that staff do not have to be in the Division Lobbies. That is the decision that has been made for the foreseeable future.

I thank noble Lords for their contributions. I know people are finding it frustrating—we all are—but I genuinely think that we are doing a good job. We are doing our best in the circumstances. I am very grateful for the constructive work that we have done across the House through the usual channels, the House of Lords Commission and the Procedure Committee. We want to return to normal life when we can, but I hope noble Lords will agree that, despite the frustrations, we are getting our job done and doing business for this country. I beg to move.

Leaving the European Union

Lord Kilclooney Excerpts

Tuesday 26th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

We are trying to work together to avoid it, which is why there have been numerous discussions between the parties, both Front-Bench and Back-Bench, in the House of Commons. We are absolutely trying to work together to address the concerns that have been raised by MPs. The noble Lord is right. We do not want no deal. That is why the Prime Minister has been so focused on trying to make the changes that will be required to get the support to get her deal over the line so that we can start to talk about our future relationship—the strong relationship we want with the EU going forward.

[Lord Kilclooney (CB)]

Can the Government assure the people of Northern Ireland that the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland will continue, and that there will be no new border created between Great Britain and Northern Ireland?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

We have been clear that we will do everything in our power to avoid a hard border in all scenarios, but there are clear EU rules that apply to trading goods with third countries, and with the Commission outlining, in its no-deal publication in December, that there will be no exemptions for Ireland on border requirements. We and the Irish Government are very clear that we are doing everything in our power to avoid a hard border. That is why we are both looking for guarantees around the backstop. That is also why we are looking at technological developments to ensure that we do not go back to that because neither side wants it, and I can assure the noble Lord that that is at the top of the Prime Minister’s priority list.

Exiting the European Union

Lord Kilclooney Excerpts

Monday 10th December 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

As I have said in relation to no deal, that is not what we are working towards, but we have to be prudent and prepare for it, and we will continue to do so. I would say that we are pursuing many government policies in a whole range of areas, from education to our industrial strategy and housing. They will make sure that we deliver a country that works for everyone and that is better for everyone.

[Lord Kilclooney (CB)]

My Lords, the Statement correctly identifies the backstop as one of the main issues. Does the Minister recall the opinion of the Attorney-General that Great Britain is essentially treated as a third country by Northern Ireland for goods passing from GB into NI? This means that regular checks would have to take place between Northern Ireland and Great Britain, normally at airports or ports. Does the Minister recognise that in Northern Ireland people are saying, “They are abolishing the Irish border and instead creating a border between Great Britain and Northern Ireland”? That is dynamite to the unionist community in Northern Ireland. The Government need to tread very carefully. As one of those who negotiated the Belfast agreement, I can assure noble Lords that, living on the ground as I do near the border, the peace process is increasingly coming under challenge.

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I certainly respect the noble Lord’s views, and that is why we have consistently said that there will be no return to a hard border in Ireland. That remains at the forefront and it is a commitment that we will keep. The noble Lord will of course be aware that currently there are at least 30 different agri-food regulatory checks between Great Britain and Northern Ireland and that the island of Ireland is already a separate entity to Great Britain for the purposes of plant and animal health.

European Council

Lord Kilclooney Excerpts

Monday 2nd July 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kilclooney (CB)]

My Lords, does the Leader agree that the Republic of Ireland will suffer more from Brexit than any other nation in the European Union and therefore it is right that people, even those dressed in green, show a new interest in the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland? Does she welcome the fact that the Government of the Republic of Ireland, who have refused to negotiate with the United Kingdom about Brexit, have now at last agreed to create a sitting of the British-Irish Intergovernmental Conference, which will begin to discuss the implications of Brexit in the Republic of Ireland? Having just returned from the border area, where I live, this time to the south of the border, I assure your Lordships that the rural communities in the Republic—not Dublin, not Dún Laoghaire—are petrified and they are being ignored by their own Government in Dublin.

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I certainly agree that we want discussion at all levels between the UK Government and Ireland. There has been good engagement at all levels and we want that to continue because, as I have said in numerous answers to questions, this is an absolutely critical issue. We both want to achieve a solution and we believe we can.

European Council

Lord Kilclooney Excerpts

Monday 26th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

On the basis of what we have achieved so far, we are confident that we will achieve a deal—but, as any responsible Government would, we have to prepare for all scenarios. But on the basis of what we have achieved so far, we are confident we will come to a good deal.

[Lord Kilclooney (CB)]

My Lords, when the United Kingdom leaves the European Union, will Northern Ireland still be part of the United Kingdom?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

We have been very clear that it will. We want to make sure that there is no hard border between Northern Ireland and Ireland and we will work to achieve that.

Brexit Negotiations

Lord Kilclooney Excerpts

Monday 11th December 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kilclooney (CB)]

My Lords, having been through the agony of the negotiations on the Belfast agreement, I have every reason to know what the phrase “nothing is agreed until everything is agreed” means. There are two things about the border: one is the movement of people and the other is the movement of trade. Trade must obviously be retained until the next stage of the negotiations with Brussels, but in so far as the movement of persons and the reference to the common travel area are concerned, can the Minister assure me that the thousands of Irish citizens who are EU citizens and who move into the United Kingdom because they want all the benefits of being British will continue to have those benefits under the common travel area?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

The joint report sets out that the common travel area with Ireland will be maintained.

Informal European Council

Lord Kilclooney Excerpts

Monday 6th February 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I can only repeat what I have said in answer to all the questions on this, which is that we are looking for an early agreement.

[Lord Kilclooney (CB)]

My Lords, I welcome the Statement repeated to the House this afternoon, especially the assurance given by the Prime Minister that President Trump will be 100% behind NATO. As almost one-quarter of the European Union countries refuse to join NATO, when can we have a 100% guarantee that the nations of the European Union will also support NATO?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

We are very clear that NATO is the cornerstone of the UK’s defence and security, and our commitment remains as strong as ever. As I said, during the lunch the Prime Minister discussed our commitment and that of our European partners to NATO. I think that there was general agreement on the importance of the organisation going forward.

Brexit: Trade

Lord Kilclooney Excerpts

Tuesday 1st November 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Mobarik]

All I can say is that the UK remains committed to being a world leader in free trade. That is our goal. We want to secure open and productive trading relationships with all our trade partners. It is not a matter of choosing one or the other; we are focusing on everyone.

[Lord Kilclooney (CB)]

Is the Minister aware that Australia has stated that it is keen to have a trade agreement with the United Kingdom so that its wine will enter this country cheaper than at present?

[Baroness Mobarik]

Of course Australia will have its own interests in terms of exporting its wine, its beef or its dairy products, but we too have our own interests in terms of exporting our motor cars and so on. Of course it has to be of mutual benefit to both countries.

Implications of Devolution for England

Lord Kilclooney Excerpts

Tuesday 16th December 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

I understand the noble Lord very clearly and I hope that he understands me. I am saying to him that I disagree because a lot of change has already happened and is happening. No side of this House or of the other place is calling for those changes to be delayed for a constitutional convention. The Labour Party has been a part of the changes which have been made and which are going through in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. There is a specific issue that we want to see addressed in England. We absolutely do not rule out a constitutional convention where other matters can be considered. I can see why it is important and that is why we are not ruling it out.

[Lord Kilclooney (CB)]

My Lords, when legislation is approved in the other place from which Members of Parliament from Scotland and Northern Ireland are excluded and that legislation then proceeds to your Lordships’ House, will Northern Ireland Peers and Scottish Peers also be excluded?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

No, they will not. No one in this House represents an area of the United Kingdom. We are all United Kingdom Peers; we do not have representative responsibilities, so the change in the Commons will not affect the way in which we do our business.

Ukraine (Shooting Down of MH17) and Gaza

Lord Kilclooney Excerpts

Monday 21st July 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

The Prime Minister’s Statement is very clear in the terms that he is using. We are absolutely clear that the loss of any civilian life is an absolute tragedy. We are also clear that the first step to bringing about peace is for Hamas to stop firing rockets at Israel. As I said when I repeated the Statement, Israel has taken steps to introduce a temporary ceasefire that was not reciprocated by Hamas. Clearly, the Government are looking to ensure that all sides in this argument work together to bring forward peace. That is what we want to see happen as soon as possible.

[Lord Kilclooney (CB)]

Given that the EU Foreign Ministers will meet tomorrow, has the Minister any good reason to expect that they will reach a unanimous decision that will be effective?

[Baroness Stowell of Beeston]

As regards what has happened over the past few days, there was a meeting last week of the European Council where it was agreed that further steps were necessary in terms of strengthening sanctions. That decision was taken before the tragic incident on Thursday. We have been talking to our European partners throughout the weekend and have had extensive discussions. My right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary will work very hard to ensure that there is clarity tomorrow and that further steps are taken in accordance with what I have already said we believe is necessary—to force Russia to withdraw and de-escalate.