Middle East
Debate between Lord Kennedy of Southwark and Baroness Smith of Basildon(2 weeks, 2 days ago)
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Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
My Lords, that was an interesting set of questions, as their views were diametrically opposed. But one thing the whole House unites around is abhorrence of the Iranian regime. I do not think there is any dissent on our view on that.
I was slightly puzzled by the comments by the noble Lord, Lord True. I think he has probably taken his lead from his leader in the House of Commons. Let me be clear: there were two separate decisions made in this regard, and we have always said that we will comply with international law.
On our second decision, we were asked to allow our bases to be used for defensive support, and we agreed to do so. The noble Lord’s comments seemed to say that, whatever the Americans decide and ask for, we should accede to their requests. We have to take a more measured approach than that, for two reasons. First, we have to act at all times in what is in the national interest of this country. Secondly, if we are to ask British troops to go into action, they need to be assured that there is a clear legal mandate for them to do so. To do anything else would be an irresponsible attitude.
The noble Lord talked about what happened over the last 14 years. I do not recall his party in any of those 14 years say that it supported military action against the regime. The request was made and we declined to take part in offensive action that is not in our remit but agreed to take defensive action when British citizens are under threat, and when requested to by allies in the region, because of the nature of the retaliation from the Iranian Government. That is completely clear and a rational, sensible approach to take in the national interest of our country.
The noble Lord asked whether we will keep the House informed of any measures regarding evacuation. Yes, of course. I managed to get further information today about the number of British nationals who have already registered their presence. The work of the Foreign Office in keeping in contact with them and giving advice is of the utmost importance.
What is clear is that the action we are taking is to protect British nationals. I do not know whether this expression has been used before: it is important that we do not just attack the arrows but the archers. That is why the focus is on those launch sites where missiles can be launched on to our friendly countries and British nationals. We are acting to protect them.
The noble Lord, Lord Purvis, asked a number of questions. Most of his questions are for the American Government to answer rather than me. It is not the policy of this Government to take action for regime change, as he said. The American Government said that; we have not said that.
On the wider points that the noble Lord made, yes, the obligation to protect civilians is mandated. We cannot opt out of that obligation; it is not discretionary. Of course, it is always the case that civilians are killed and injured during military action, and we have seen that happen already. We have seen that American soldiers have been killed, and military from other countries. We saw the Kuwaiti flights today; the American soldiers were injured but they have survived, I understand. That is not discretionary.
The noble Lord asked about economic instability. That is something that the Treasury will keep under review at all times. Obviously, it is a priority.
The noble Lord talked about antisemitism and Islamophobia in this country. He will have heard in the Statement some of the measures that are being taken, but there is a duty on us all—as I said before, it is a responsibility of every Member of this House—to act in that regard and call it out whenever and wherever it happens. Undoubtedly there are concerns among the Jewish community, as we have heard.
The noble Lord asked about Palestine, and he will be aware of the recognition of Palestine. Whenever there is a serious incident in one part of the world, that does not absolve us of our responsibilities in other areas. There are numerous areas of conflict or tension. We should take care how we respond in a way that is in the national interest, protects British citizens and abides by international law.
Captain of the Honourable Corps of Gentlemen-at-Arms and Chief Whip (Lord Kennedy of Southwark) (Lab Co-op)
My Lords, we now have 20 minutes of Back-Bench questions. In order that we can get as many noble Lords in as possible, I remind noble Lords that their contributions should be questions, not speeches.
Lord Mandelson: Government Response to Humble Address
Debate between Lord Kennedy of Southwark and Baroness Smith of Basildon(3 weeks, 1 day ago)
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The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Smith of Basildon) (Lab)
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness and the noble Lord for their questions; I will try to answer as many as possible. I do not recognise the noble Baroness’s suggestion about delay in dealing with this. There are a lot of documents to be produced. The Government have been very clear that there is no hesitation at all in complying fully and completely with the humble Address. I hope that reassures her.
There is no scheduled timetable but it is important that, with so many documents, we do not wait until we have every document but get them out in tranches. Some of those may be out of sequence, in a sense, but all government departments have been asked to be very clear that all documents must be kept, whatever form they are in, and that information and messages must be kept so they can be fully disclosed.
The noble Baroness asked for confirmation on what is being withheld. Only two areas are being withheld. Information will be sent to the ISC. The Government will make a judgment on whether that information has an impact on international security, international relations and national security. If the Government make that judgment, it will then be given to the ISC to assess. There is a clear process and an assessment of the Government’s judgment on that when it is sent to the ISC. The other issue—which I understand is one document, or maybe a suite of documents—is the questions that were asked of Peter Mandelson by No. 10. That is the information that is currently with the Metropolitan Police. There is obviously a delay in publishing that, but as soon as we are able to do so we will. I take into account the Lord Speaker’s comments that nothing should be allowed to prejudice justice.
The noble Baroness asked what “early March” means. I am tempted to say that early March means early March. I do not know quite how further to describe early March: does it mean 1 March or 2 March? It means early March. It will be published in early March and I expect we will see the information produced in the next couple of weeks or so.
The noble Baroness also raised the slightly curious point about the independence of the ISC, which the House of Commons raised as well. I hope I have not misunderstood—she is shaking her head at me, so perhaps I did—but the ISC has to be able to conduct its work without fear or favour and have the full confidence of the whole of Parliament in doing so. Although the staff are employed by the Cabinet Office, she will know from her experience of the Civil Service how very much they work for the ISC.
Having said that, I understand that there have been discussions about whether those staff should be employed directly by the ISC or whether it is more appropriate that there is a pool of people who work for the ISC and may return to other Civil Service jobs. The important thing is that they have the resources to do their job. I have absolute confidence in the Members of this House who are members of the ISC—the noble Lord, Lord West, the noble Baroness, Lady Brown, and the chair, the noble Lord, Lord Beamish, who is behind me, keeping an eye on me—to ensure they do their work fully, completely and properly. I am sure the noble Baroness, Lady Finn, will agree.
The noble Baroness commented that the Metropolitan Police cannot dictate to the House and asked whether the Government accept their duty that any documents held should be released afterwards. I have already answered that: they will be released where we are able to do so and where that does not jeopardise any possible further action the police may want to take.
The noble Lord, Lord Wallace, addressed how all of us can make mistakes. He referred to mistakes by past Governments and by this Government. Indeed, I heard his party leader on the radio this morning talking about mistakes that he had made. When mistakes are made, three things must happen. First, there must be an admission that a mistake has been made. Secondly, how it happened must be understood. Unless you understand how and why it happened, you cannot take the action that is needed to protect yourself and others from making similar mistakes in the future. Thirdly, an apology is required. I will never suggest that no Government ever made a mistake—it is human life—but to understand how and why, to put the wrong right and to apologise are important steps forward.
The noble Lord asked the Government to publish and explain as much as possible. Yes, transparency—particularly in an era of distrust of politicians, which we have been in for some time—democratic accountability, the rule of law, and being as open and transparent as possible are important. Who would have expected, when the Epstein papers, documents and emails were released, that this would reverberate around the world? It is uncomfortable for any Government to find themselves in a position where the information in those emails was completely unknown by them. The sense of betrayal, hurt, anger and upset in seeing those documents and that information is enormous. I assure the noble Lord on that.
The noble Lord says that there are rumours about Russian influence. It is very difficult to do anything about rumours. I worry about rumours. It is evidence that we must work on. Any evidence that can be made available should be made available. However, he will understand, in talking about the Russia report, that it is about finding the balance between transparency and international relations and security. I am grateful for the work that the ISC is doing on this, and generally, as I think the whole House must be, to ensure that it is confident that this balance is right and that it can work with the Government on this. However, the responsibility for national security ultimately lies with the Government.
The noble Lord says that there is further embarrassment to come. I am less worried about embarrassment than I am about not doing justice to the young women and girls who were abused by Jeffrey Epstein. There are times in life when we have to take a bit of embarrassment to ensure that justice is done.
Captain of the Honourable Corps of Gentlemen-at-Arms and Chief Whip (Lord Kennedy of Southwark) (Lab Co-op)
We now move on to up to 20 minutes of Back- Bench questions. It is Back-Bench questions, not speeches.
US Department of Justice Release of Files
Debate between Lord Kennedy of Southwark and Baroness Smith of Basildon(1 month, 1 week ago)
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The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Smith of Basildon) (Lab)
My Lords, I thank both the noble Baroness and the noble Lord for their comments and questions. At the forefront of all of our minds are those who were victims of a vile paedophile and how powerful people had a network in which there was no respect and it was almost as if they were casual playthings for their benefits. It is quite a horrendous thought, the consequences of which last for those young girls and women for the rest of their lives. They are often tragic consequences for them personally and for those who know them. I think a lot of this would never have come to light had it not been for their bravery in being prepared to stand up, be identified—which is a huge thing to do—and speak out. That has been at the forefront of my mind in all this, and it is one of the things that I find most distressing about it all.
On the noble Baroness’s questions on security vetting and investigations, as much as possible needs to be in the public domain. That is absolutely right, and I pay tribute to the Intelligence and Security Committee for taking on that role. Everything that is identified and deemed to be a matter of national security in some way will be reviewed by the Intelligence and Security Committee.
At the moment a lot of people are feeling very betrayed that their trust has been abused. The world outside basically thinks that you cannot trust any politician. We know from our work in this House—many of us have worked in politics for many years—that trust is the cornerstone of what we do, between and across parties. When that trust is betrayed, the people who feel it most keenly are often those who have put their trust in people who never earned it and did not deserve it. That is something for us all to reflect on going forward, which is why it is so important that information should be made as public as possible.
It is a completely understandable frustration that the police have said that some information cannot be released yet because of the integrity of their investigation. Information has been passed to the police but, if there is to be justice, particularly for victims, the police will have to decide what to do with that information. With that caveat, we will release the information when it is available, but it has been given to the police and to the ISC. We will do that as a matter of some urgency, and I give the noble Baroness that assurance, most definitely.
My only point of difference with the noble Lord is on a public inquiry—I am sure that will be looked at in due course—partly because of my experience of public inquiries. I initiated one as a Minister and it took something like 17 years to report. That length of time is completely and totally unacceptable to me. We have to do this quickly but thoroughly, and one should not compromise the other.
The noble Lord made some other points on vetting going forward. There is an established process, which was followed. If that process is found to be inadequate, it needs to be looked at.
The noble Lord and the noble Baroness also raised an issue about who undertakes this. The Cabinet Secretary will at all times have the guidance of an independent KC on this, and will meet regularly with the ISC. The precise details of how that will happen have yet to be worked out, but the key is to ensure that all information is released. There is no desire on anybody’s part to try to hide something or cover it up; it has to be very transparent.
The noble Lord referred to lobbying interests and public office for profit. It is not just about the Ministerial Code; that was updated and this Prime Minister has strengthened it so that the adviser on this, the person in charge of the Ministerial Code, can initiate inquiries without reference to the Prime Minister. The Prime Minister has given them that greater independence. But I think this goes beyond that. Some of the emails that we have read, about information being given to an individual who may or may not have used it—we do not know—need to be investigated further. That information is available to the police as part of their investigations.
The noble Lord also asked about our mechanisms in this House. Being a Member of this House is an immense privilege and honour. I remember being in the other place: to sit on those Benches, I had to face an electorate, knock on doors and talk to people. It was a long process, and I could be deselected and unelected—as I was. We do not face that in this House. We are appointed. At the moment, we are appointed for life unless we choose to retire, and we have a committee looking at the participation issue now and we may have a retirement age.
But I think we need to go further, and the Prime Minister has said this as well. If standards are such that we feel someone should not be a Member of this House, do we really think it is appropriate for them to retain that title for life? It is not appropriate and it should not happen. The Government are preparing that legislation, and I will work with all parties on bringing it forward. I want to ensure that we get this right. That is not a reason for delay; it is to ensure thoroughness. This may not be the only case that we ever have, and I want to ensure that this House can hold its head up in the future to ensure that we believe in the integrity of every single Member. Getting that right and ensuring that this legislation has a long-term sustainable application is really important, so I will bring that forward and we will discuss it.
The noble Lord also mentioned the Code of Conduct. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Kakkar. I wrote to him on Monday, in light of this, to ask him to look at our own Code of Conduct and whether we think it is fit for purpose. In our manifesto, we said that we would strengthen the circumstances for the removal of Peers who are disgraced. I am asking the committee to look at that in its work, and I think the whole House will want to work together on this. So there is work going forward, but we have to take responsibility for it as a House. If we fail to protect the integrity of the body, every single Member of this House will face those kinds of criticisms. I have great faith in this House and its Members but, if people let us down, they do not deserve the right to be here.
Captain of the Honourable Corps of Gentlemen-at-Arms and Chief Whip (Lord Kennedy of Southwark) (Lab Co-op)
My Lords, we now move on to 20 minutes of Back-Bench questions. The House wants succinct questions, getting in as many noble Lords as possible. The House does not want speeches—this is not the time.
Lord Watts (Lab)
My Lords, I welcome the comprehensive Statement from the Leader of the House, but may I raise just one issue? There seem to be some questions to be answered about the role of the Cabinet Secretary in this. Is it appropriate for him to be involved in the investigation?
Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
My Lords, the role of the Cabinet Secretary, working with the KC, is to ensure that all available documents are made public, that what needs to go to the police does—some documents already have, and there may be others as more is investigated—and that others can be made public. So there is a role, but it is being overseen by an independent King’s Counsel. So there is a legal element to that to make sure that there is no possibility of information being withheld that should be in the public domain or referred to the ISC because it is a matter of national security.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)
My Lords, we will now have the Cross Benches, then the Conservative Benches.
Anniversary of 7 October Attacks: Middle East
Debate between Lord Kennedy of Southwark and Baroness Smith of Basildon(1 year, 5 months ago)
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Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)
I am grateful to the noble Lord for the information about his experiences in his medical field. I hope the message that has gone out from this House and across the country is that Israel is not alone. The expressions that have been made, the international support and the discussions taking place are very clear that Israel has a right to defend itself. Both Houses, in Statements yesterday and today and throughout the conflict, have been clear that we stand shoulder to shoulder in ensuring that Israel has a right to defend itself. I hope that Israel and Jews across the country understand that they are not alone, but we want to ensure a peace throughout the region so that everybody, Arabs, Jews, Muslims, Christians, people of all faiths and none, can live together in peace—if not in harmony, at least in safety.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)
I want to say quickly that we are taking questions, and I want to get as many noble Lords in as possible.