Pre-charge Police Bail: Time Limit

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Excerpts

Wednesday 26th February 2020 Lords Chamber

Tabled by

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to extend the time limit on pre-charge police bail.

Licensing Act 2003: Post-Legislative Scrutiny (Licensing Act 2003 Report)

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Excerpts

Wednesday 20th December 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I first draw the attention of the House to my entry in the register of interests; in particular, I am a councillor in the London Borough of Lewisham and a vice-president of the Local Government Association. I should also mention that I am a member of the Campaign for Real Ale and vice-chair of the All-Party Parliamentary Beer Group. I join other noble Lords in thanking the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Pickering, and the members of her Select Committee for the excellent report they have produced and the detailed work they undertook to consider and report on the Licensing Act 2003.

As the noble Baroness said, it is disappointing that the Government took so long to respond to the report, but at least they have responded to it before we had a debate today. That is progress. As we have heard in this debate, the Licensing Act 2003 changed the law governing the sale of alcohol. I agree very much that, in moderation, alcohol can enhance community cohesion, bring people together and is enjoyable with family and friends. But in excess it can have a devastating effect for the individuals drinking, for their family and friends and for the community more widely.

We have all seen reports in the media of the effects of drinking to excess. There is a clear link between drinking to excess and violent crime and general anti-social behaviour. I agree with the general thrust of the report that the Act needs to be reviewed and overhauled. It has been in force for 11 years and piecemeal amendments do not enable a comprehensive look to be taken at licensing, alcohol consumption, what the trends are, what is good, what has worked and what has not worked so well.

I note that the Government do not intend to be “hasty” in instigating such an overhaul, which is a word sometimes used when responding to reports and reviews. I am always sceptical when I hear from the Government such phrases as “keeping matters under review”, or “will deal with it in due course”. I am very much in favour of the Government introducing, reviewing and updating legislation on the back of evidence and careful policy consideration, and with the benefit of pre-legislative or post-legislative scrutiny reviews, which we have here, as my noble friend Lord Davies of Stamford and the noble Lord, Lord Mancroft, mentioned. It is a better way to legislate, and we have two recent examples from this House of how to do it and how not to do it.

The Modern Slavery Act was a comprehensive, world-class piece of legislation, tackling a real problem and getting it right. It became law after detailed consideration in this House and excellent pre-legislative scrutiny. Then there is the Housing and Planning Act 2016, which must rate as one of the worst pieces of legislation put on the statute book by a Government in recent times. Largely, the provisions contained in the Act—all devised on the back of an envelope from the Policy Exchange—have been formally dropped or quietly forgotten about.

I remember when I became a councillor, many years ago, to get permission to sell alcohol you had to appear in front of the licensing magistrates, as we have heard—a specific group of magistrates who had received specific training. But that all changed with this Act and these matters became the responsibility of the local authority. The new system has generally worked well, but it is a lot of work for councillors, in my experience.

One of the recommendations that I am not convinced about, although other noble Lords are, is the trial merging of planning and licensing committees. I serve on the planning committee of Lewisham Council and it is a significant time commitment. In Lewisham, every member of the authority has the option of serving on either the planning committee or the licensing committee. The licensing committee undertakes a significant amount of work and meets regularly. Members of both committees take their responsibilities seriously and receive training. I am not convinced, from what I have seen of this proposal, that it would enhance that, but I accept that it is different in other places, as I have heard from other noble Lords this evening. I very much agree with the comments of the noble Baroness, Lady Eaton.

[Lord Blair of Boughton]

The proposal from the committee was not to merge the two systems but to experiment with merging the two systems. That is a significant difference and worth considering. A complete change would, I agree, be inappropriate, but the proposal is to experiment in limited areas with that change.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

I thank the noble Lord for that clarification. I am always happy to experiment and we could look at that, but in my experience, from what I have seen so far as a councillor in my own authority, the current system works well. In other places that may not be the case.

As I was saying, I agree very much with the noble Baroness, Lady Eaton, about the setting of fees locally. We had a similar debate about planning fees and my noble friend Lady Henig made the same point in her remarks. What is important is that whoever deals with these matters receives good-quality training that is refreshed at regular intervals. The noble Lord, Lord Smith of Hindhead, and other noble Lords made that point. Training is important and it should be refreshed regularly.

As to where the appeal goes, I am not opposed to looking at some other body rather than the magistrates’ court where they go at present. Expertise and knowing the local area are important, as is being properly trained, as I said. I would not want to see the appeal process being too remote. One benefit of local magistrates is that they are drawn from the local community.

The 2003 Act was never going to deal with the problems around excessive drinking and all the problems associated with alcohol misuse. There have been many benefits to the liberalising of the law. Many cities have developed thriving night-time offerings that have become an important part of the local economy, and that is to be welcomed. The noble Baroness, Lady Watkins of Tavistock, made the important point about the risks of selling alcohol to young people or them buying it online. I am well aware that the police and trading standards officers have initiatives whereby they send police cadets into off-licences and other premises selling alcohol to see whether they will be served, but that cannot be done when alcohol is bought online.

There are, though, serious problems with alcohol misuse and the link between alcohol misuse and violence is there for all to see. I have been spending a few weeks completing the Police Force Parliamentary Scheme and I am very grateful for the time the Metropolitan Police has given me and for showing me different aspects of its work. One of the most distressing things was my visit to the domestic violence unit at Greenwich, where a really professional group of officers do an excellent job and make a real difference. But it is distressing to be briefed on the real horror of domestic violence and then see the role that alcohol played in many, but not all, of the incidents the police had to deal with.

As part of the same scheme, I was present when a very drunk man was being violent on the streets and was arrested by police officers. He told them he had swallowed a bottle of pills, so the officers had to call for an ambulance. He was assessed at the scene and taken to A&E with the police officers. They had to remain with him while he was seen because he was very aggressive and violent and could have hurt himself or been a danger to others there. Of course, the officers were then unable to assist other colleagues if any other problems happened later that day. These are all serious problems related to alcohol misuse. It is all down to excessive drinking.

My noble friend Lord Davies of Stamford referred to how important the hospitality industry is to our economy, as did the noble Lord, Lord Smith of Hindhead. That leads on to the issue of off-sales and the reversal in terms of the amount of alcohol sold in premises licensed for alcohol to be consumed on those premises and alcohol sold through off-licences and supermarkets.

There is a very real problem with supermarkets, which can, using economies of scale, buy huge quantities of high-strength alcohol, usually lager, and sell it very cheaply. My noble friend Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe raised the importance of tax as a determining factor in the amount of alcohol sold. When noble Lords next go into their local supermarket, I suspect they will not get far before being met by a large beer mountain or maybe, at this time of year, a prosecco or sparkling wine mountain right next to it. These are issues that we need to deal with. My noble friend Lady Henig made a point about the growing problem of super-strength alcohol being sold in supermarkets and corner shops.

While there are some very good local voluntary schemes in place to deal with specific problems, we should look to other jurisdictions to see how they deal with the issue. I note that the committee made reference to and recommended the introduction of legislation based on that presently in force in Scotland, with amendments to the guidance presently in force in England in the meantime.

I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Pickering, that a disability access statement for the premises is something the Government should quickly seek to introduce. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Shinkwin, that holding another consultation is inadequate, but it is an unfortunate problem that we often experience across various parts of government. I have lost count of the number of consultation reviews that were introduced for mandatory electrical safety checks, despite the Government announcing from the Dispatch Box that they were going to introduce them.

Introducing this new legislation and guidance is very sensible. While people want to enjoy themselves, the massive change to more drinking at home cannot be a good thing, both for the reasons I highlighted earlier and the effect on our pubs, which are closing at a rate of nearly 25 a week—despite the valiant efforts of Pub is The Hub, CAMRA and other campaigns. The closure of such community assets is regrettable. I know that the Government see the value of local pubs. The Localism Act introduced the assets of community value scheme, but CAMRA does not recommend that members seek to list pubs any more because there have been unintended consequences as banks and financial institutions do not like the charge held over the premises. There have also been problems with landlords raising finance for pub improvements because they see the charge listed there. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Bourne, is looking at this matter; I have raised it with him previously.

When your pub is gone, it is gone and it is not coming back, despite the boom in new breweries selling a number of fantastic products. The issue of the late-night levy was addressed by the committee; I concur with the thrust of the report that business improvement districts, or something similar, should be explored and that the late-night levy should probably be abolished at an appropriate point. The committee also looked at live music; I think the Live Music Act 2012 has been very welcome, making a positive contribution to the live music scene with proportionate deregulation. The noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, deserves much credit for skilfully taking that Bill through your Lordships’ House. I agree with the committee that the Act is probably working broadly as intended.

I agree with the recommendations of the committee’s report on the need for some form of licensing on the airside of airports and, similarly, on the portside of ports. I totally agree with the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Blair, in this respect and hope that the noble Baroness, Lady Williams of Trafford, will take those concerns back to her department. I have been at airports early in the morning and seen people sitting there, drinking pints of high-strength lager at 8 am. It is just ridiculous. We need to deal with that. Getting on to a plane in a poor condition is just not good enough. We need to be careful and proportionate, but there are issues here that need to be carefully considered.

In conclusion, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh of Pickering, for instigating this excellent debate, which has provided a number of important issues to be responded to by the noble Baroness, Lady Williams of Trafford.

Online Hate Speech

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Excerpts

Thursday 30th November 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, first, the Prime Minister was absolutely right to make it clear that President Trump was wrong to tweet videos from the extremist group Britain First. Such actions are no help in the fight against terrorism.

Secondly, does the Minister agree that the United Kingdom always has and always will fight terrorism wherever it comes from, with our police, security services and military keeping us safe 24 hours a day, and that people of faith—whatever that faith may be—and people of no faith coming together in communities, respecting each other, celebrating our differences and learning from each other, is equally important in fighting terrorism and the spreaders of hate? Will she and her colleagues in government look again at what they can do to remove these vile sites, such as that of Britain First, from the web?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I completely agree with the noble Lord. We will always fight terrorism, and we will fight it together in whatever form it takes. We should remember that our different communities and different faiths played a part in both the wars that we have fought together. As a society, we will not tolerate any divisions that seek to penetrate our communities. On the noble Lord’s point about going further to tackle activities on Twitter and other social media sites, Twitter now takes down 95% of illegal activity, but on the point about us working together as two nations, it is because of the US that we were able to talk to the CSPs about taking down such content from Twitter and other platforms, and we will continue to do that. We now have the online hate crime hub, Tell MAMA, which allows people to report Islamophobia, and the Community Security Trust as a repository for people to report anti-Semitism and related activity. We are absolutely determined to drive out all forms of hatred within our country, and this country should be rightly proud of the tolerance and respect that it has for other faiths and other communities.

Drug Dealing Telecommunications Restriction Orders Regulations 2017

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Excerpts

Wednesday 29th November 2017 Grand Committee

[Lord Paddick (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her explanation. I have some specific questions about these orders and a general comment about the Government’s approach to illegal drugs and related issues. We support these measures but we have wider concerns.

As the Minister has explained, these regulations allow law enforcement agencies to make an application to a court to disconnect mobile communication devices, such as mobile phones, where there are reasonable grounds to believe that an order would prevent or restrict their use in connection with drug dealing. These orders can be made without notice to the people affected, in private and at the request of the applicant, without any details being disclosed to anyone. I can understand the need to protect covert human intelligence sources who may be involved in supplying information to the enforcement agencies and I also understand what the Minister has said—that if people were told in advance, it might enable them to change their telephone numbers in advance—but surely this is going to be only a marginal benefit, as it will soon become apparent to the drug dealer that their phone has been disconnected. Unless I do not understand the issue fully, it would not take very long not only for an alternative number to be secured but for the suppliers and clients to be notified of what the new number is. What is the real advantage of keeping the whole process secret—other than protecting sources—set against the benefits of having, as far as possible, an open justice system? Can the Minister explain how these measures present any more than a minor irritation to the drug dealers? In her explanation, she talked about these measures seriously disrupting drug dealers, but surely it would be very quick and easy to re-establish their lines of communication.

Moving on to wider issues, these measures are symptomatic of the Government’s approach to illegal drugs—tinkering around the edges in the vain hope of appearing to be doing something. But the inescapable fact is that there is an insatiable demand for illegal drugs, from young people who smoke small amounts of cannabis to the rich and famous who use cocaine. The fact that these drugs are illegal is no longer a consideration for millions of recreational drug users in the UK. As with most forms of prohibition—as we have learnt from history—stemming demand is clearly ineffective and, as a result, the law is being brought into disrepute. Addiction to illegal drugs, on the other hand, should be treated as a health issue and not a criminal justice issue. It is the sufferer’s addiction that is the issue and not the drugs that they are addicted to.

As with any insatiable demand, there will clearly be a supply. The only effective way to deal with illegal drug supply is to take out the whole distribution network from source to street. During the period of the “peace dividend”, between peace in Northern Ireland and the rise of Islamist terrorism and the far right, the police and the security services were able to mount a limited number of operations that did just that—take out importers, distributors and street dealers. The combination of the diversion of the security services back to their core function of anti-terrorism and the reduction in police resources means such operations are no longer possible.

There was a story in the Times this week on this very issue of county lines, which reported:

“Thousands of children and teenagers are being used by criminal gangs as drug runners ... The National Crime Agency ... believes that the ‘county lines’ drug trade, in which urban gangs move Class A drugs and cash between inner-city hubs and out-of-town locations, is out of control”.


I spoke a few weeks ago in Parliament to some young people whose lived experience is that drug dealing, with all its inherent risks and dangers, presents the best way to make money as far as they are concerned, whether to support a reasonable lifestyle or to put food on the table for their families. Prison was seen by them as a place where they can meet with their friends. As one young woman recently released from Holloway prison explained, it was somewhere where she had “the best time”, to quote her exactly. She added, admitting the irony, that when her local police station was the base for a safer neighbourhood team and she saw uniformed officers on a regular basis she felt safer, but not anymore.

In a society where discrimination against the young, and black and minority ethnic people, persists in the job market, where young people’s lives are blighted by criminal records acquired at a young age, and which, from young people’s perspective, gives them little or nothing and no hope of making a decent living by legitimate means in the future, they believe drug dealing to be a legitimate option. All this creates a parallel society where young people feel they have to arm themselves with knives and guns to make themselves feel safe, whether they are engaged in drug dealing or not, resulting in record numbers of young people dying on the streets from knife crime and of people dying on our streets from taking illegal drugs because there is no control of the strength or composition of the drugs they are taking. What is the Government’s response to this alarming picture? It is to cut off the phones of drug dealers, if and only if they find out what numbers the dealers are using—something that can be rectified by drug dealers within hours.

There is a crisis in this country enveloping increasing numbers of young people. Of course we should make life difficult for drug dealers and these measures may have a marginal impact, but a major rethink about the legalisation and regulation of drugs, the treatment of addiction, the incarceration and criminalisation of young people, providing opportunities for young people to earn decent money legitimately, and the decimation of community policing, is desperately needed.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Williams of Trafford, for her explanation of the regulations before the Grand Committee. I am fully supportive of them as far as they go and I welcome the action being taken here, although more could be done.

I have spent a few Fridays and Saturdays with the Metropolitan Police over the last few months, looking at a variety of the operations it undertakes and how it has to work in some very challenging circumstances to keep us safe. This whole issue of drug gangs crossing county lines was the subject of a briefing I received recently. I remember visiting one particular unit that explained how a number of young people from their area had been apprehended in a coastal town with drugs and cash. They had gone from their London base and they were dealing stuff there. It is absolutely right that this exploits some very young, vulnerable people. It potentially drags young people into a life of crime. There are other risks for these young people of being groomed and sexually abused, and of being subject to other forms of violence. It is a very depressing thing to see.

I also went on a raid of a property being used as a drugs den. Across the table there were about a dozen mobile phones. If you are a drug dealer apparently you have loads of phones, which is why we have these orders. That highlighted to me the importance of these phones to the operations.

This is a serious issue and the orders have my support but my problem is that the phones can be bought with minimal information. You can just wander into a high street store or supermarket and do not need to provide anything and you can get a mobile phone and off you go. If you are a drug dealer I suppose you buy loads of these phones. I think you can also buy the mobile phone credit with minimal information. There are lots of circumstances where if you want to do things in this country you have to provide ID—to buy goods, to buy services, to get access to credit. This week I went to the post office because a parcel had arrived, we were not there and a little card was put through the door. To get the parcel, which was for my wife, I had to produce the card, our council tax bill and both our passports—just to get a parcel that was legitimately ours. But apparently someone can go to the high street and buy a mobile phone with no indication of who they are—and go off and set an operation up.

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[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I thank both noble Lords for the points that they raised. The noble Lord, Lord Paddick, made a series of very good points about this issue, including about the perhaps marginal benefit of disconnecting the phone. I guess that assumes that the phone is used by one person to make one call but in fact it is not. It is often used by hundreds of drug users to facilitate thousands of deals every single day. Therefore, giving no notice of the intention to close down the mobile phone stops the criminals from posting to the users the fact that the phone is going to be closed down. So that is one benefit of it.

Both noble Lords suggested that this is just one very small step. It is something that the NCA and the Government have been concerned about. It is one step. It is not the whole solution. The noble Lord, Lord Paddick, talked about the general support that users need with rehabilitation and perhaps with mental health problems. The other issues around guns and gangs often go together with drugs. He is right that there is often a multiagency approach to just one of the problems that these young people face. As I said to, I think, the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, before the debate, often these young people are in care, so they are very vulnerable. These are the people who are being used for the county lines activity. It absolutely needs sorting but noble Lords are right that this is not the full answer to what is quite a complex problem.

The noble Lord, Lord Paddick, talked about the police cuts. As I have explained on many occasions, the police budget has been protected over the last few years. The NCA shows that police forces across the country are very engaged in tackling county lines. They are not linking any problems with budgetary issues to being able to tackle these problems.

I understand that new CPS guidance has been issued, as well as awareness guidance on health and social care problems. I do not think the police or the Government want to criminalise a young person at 16 for drug use. They want to rehabilitate that person, as the noble Lord says. Access to jobs and a life away from drugs, guns and gangs is much more preferable to a life dealing with drugs, albeit such a life can be quite lucrative.

I think the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, asked why the NCA cannot launch criminal proceedings against the phone line. The ownership of the phone line is concealed and often anonymous. The noble Lord makes the point about identification, because we have to provide identification for everything, but someone can simply go into a mobile phone shop and buy a mobile phone. I will take that point away with me. The noble Lord also made a point on verification, and I do not disagree. He also asked whether there was an unwillingness of mobile phone operators to engage with this. I think there was that element, because the Government would not have legislated if mobile phone operators had co-operated on this. I think that that answers the noble Lord’s questions.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

I thank the Minister for those replies. I am pleased that the Minister has confirmed that some of the companies involved may not be as keen as we hoped they would be. It is a bizarre situation that someone can go off down the road and buy a mobile phone. This may not be the only solution, but if you bought a phone and the line was attached to you and you had to provide your passport and credit card, and even if in the end you were not a drug dealer but the phone was used for a drug deal, someone could go back and say: “Hang on—you bought this phone six months ago and now it has been used in these operations. What have you got to say about that?”. The fact that it is all anonymous makes things very difficult for everybody concerned.

I think it is the companies—either the shops or mobile phone operators—who are not keen to co-operate. We have seen in other Bills, such as the Data Protection Bill, other issues from companies that are not keen to co-operate with the Government and law enforcement agencies. Perhaps we should look further at that, because it seems ridiculous to me. The noble Lord, Lord Paddick, will know better than I that these are really serious matters. People’s lives can be totally destroyed. A company certainly has no right not to co-operate with the Government. The Government should insist on this. As I said, you cannot get your parcel from the Post Office without producing your council tax bill or your passport, but you can go off and buy a mobile phone and become a drug dealer. It is ridiculous.

I also mentioned the point about cannabis seeds. Cannabis seeds and all the equipment can be bought in this country quite legally. You cannot run a cannabis farm, but you can buy seeds on a number of high streets, which is absolutely ridiculous. I found that out only a few weeks ago when I was out with the police on the beat. They said, “That shop down the road, you can buy all the stuff, and there’s nothing illegal in doing that”. If that is the case—and I have no reason to doubt the officers—that should also be looked at, because it is a ridiculous situation.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I forgot to mention that point. If the noble Lord would let me know the name of the shop, we can take that on.

Data Protection Bill [HL]

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Excerpts

Committee: 4th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 15th November 2017 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

93A: Schedule 3, page 140, line 16, leave out “or another individual”

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[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, Amendment 93A in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Stevenson of Balmacara is the first amendment in a small group before the Committee this afternoon. They are probing amendments to allow us to begin to debate the issues around Schedule 3, specifically Part 2 and matters concerning health data and social work data.

Amendment 93A would delete the words “or another individual”. I want to understand clearly what the Government mean when they refer to the “serious harm test” for the data subject and to this very wide catch-all phrase, “or another individual”. Amendment 94A would delete specific wording as detailed in the Bill and replace it with the wording in my amendment.

I can see the point of paragraph 4(1)(c) of Schedule 3, but do not see why the Government would not wish to rely on the definition of lacking mental capacity, as defined by the Mental Capacity Act 2005. Can the Minister explain, if my amendment is not going to be accepted, why the Government appear to be relying on weaker words in this section?

Amendment 94B would delete paragraph 4(2)(a) of Schedule 3. Again, I stress that this is a probing amendment to give the Minister the opportunity to set out clearly how this is going to work so that it does not cause problems for research but respects people’s privacy regarding the data that they have been provided with.

On the other amendments in the group, Amendment 94C looks to broaden the definition of social work data to include education data and data concerning health, by probing what the Government mean by their definition of social work data in the Bill. Amendment 94D probes, regarding paragraph 8, the details on data processed by local authorities, by the regional health and social care boards, by health and social care trusts and by education authorities.

With Amendments 95A and 95B, I am looking for a greater understanding of what the Government mean. The wording in the Bill which these amendments would delete is quite vague. We want to understand much more what the Government are talking about here. I beg to move.

[Baroness Chisholm of Owlpen (Con)]

My Lords, the Bill sets new standards for protecting general data, in accordance with the GDPR, which will give people more control over use of their data and provide new rights to move or delete personal data. However, there will be occasions when it is not in the best interests of the data subject for these rights to be exercised, or where exercising them might impinge on the rights and freedoms of others. Schedule 3 considers this issue in the specific context of health, social work, education and child abuse data. It provides organisations operating in these fields with targeted exemptions where it is necessary for the protection of the data subject or the rights and freedoms of others. Importantly, much of Schedule 3 is directly imported from existing legislation.

The amendments which the noble Lords, Lord Stevenson and Lord Kennedy, have tabled focus on exemptions available for healthcare and social services providers. Let me deal first with the amendments relating to the healthcare exemptions. Amendment 93A would amend the serious harm test, in paragraph 2 of Schedule 3, by removing the reference to harm caused to other individuals. This is an important safeguard. For example, if a child informed a healthcare provider that they had been abused by a relative and then that person made a subject access request, it is obvious that disclosure could have serious consequences for the child. I am sure that this is not what the noble Lords envisage through their amendment; we consider there are good reasons for retaining the current wording. As I said earlier, these provisions are not new: they have been imported from paragraph 5 of the Data Protection (Subject Access Modification) (Health) Order 2000.

Amendments 94A and 94B would amend the exemption in paragraph 4 which allows health professionals to withhold personal data from parents or carers where the data in question has been provided by the data subject on the basis that it would not be disclosed to the persons making the request. Again, neither of these provisions is new. They too were provided for in paragraph 5 of the 2000 order and we think they remain appropriate.

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Amendment 95A would amend paragraph 8(1)(k) by removing the ability of the Secretary of State or the Department of Health in Northern Ireland to designate voluntary organisations which can carry out social services functions similar to those carried out by a local authority. Amendment 95B would amend paragraph 8(1)(m) by removing the reference to NHS bodies that exercise functions similar to those carried out by the local authority. However, I stress that none of these provisions is new and that they were imported from paragraph 1 of the schedule to the Data Protection (Subject Access Modification) (Social Work) Order 2000. Given current trends in health and social care delivery, we believe that they are still necessary requirements and can see no benefit in their removal. I urge the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Chisholm of Owlpen, for that full response to this group of amendments. As I said, they were only probing amendments to get the response that we have received from the Minister this afternoon, just so that we could see what is behind the Government’s proposals. I accept that in large part they are carried forward from existing legislation and I am therefore happy to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment 93A withdrawn.

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Moved by

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

124A: Clause 24, page 14, line 40, at end insert “where the provision is likely to prejudice the combat effectiveness of the armed forces.”

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

Amendment 124A, in my name and that of my noble friend Lord Stevenson of Balmacara, would amend Clause 24, which concerns national security and defence exemptions. Comparing the Bill to the 1998 Act, it appears to us that what is proposed is of a much wider scope. I would like to hear a justification from the noble Baroness, Lady Williams of Trafford, as to why we need this wider definition. If it is the noble Baroness’s contention that this is not the case, will she tell the Committee why the Government have not merely taken the words directly from the 1998 Act?

Amendment 124N does the same thing in respect of Clause 26. Amendments 124K and 148J are the same and seek to put into the Bill matters raised by the Constitution Committee. These amendments require the Secretary of State to,

“specify in regulations the grounds of appeal for proceedings under subsection (3)”.

This seems to me perfectly reasonable, giving much-needed clarity, so I hope that the noble Baroness can accept my amendments in this regard, or at least agree to reflect on them before Report. I feel that the clause as presently worded is too vague, and that cannot be a good thing when dealing with these serious matters. The amendments also require that these regulations be subject to scrutiny by both Houses of Parliament through the affirmative resolution procedure, which is an important further layer of parliamentary scrutiny.

The final amendment in my name in this group is another probing amendment. It would delete the measures which limit the power of the Information Commissioner to satisfy themselves that the obligations under Part 4 are being observed. In addition, there are amendments in the group in the names of the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, and the noble Lords, Lord Clement-Jones and Lord Paddick. I look forward to them explaining those further to the Committee during the debate. I beg to move.

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[Baroness Hamwee]

My Lords, the Minister has just proved a point that I made to a colleague who asked me whether I could explain all my amendments, and I said, “If I don’t, the Minister will”. Let us see what the Constitution Committee has to say, as I take its concerns seriously. To dispose of one small point, I accept what she says about the “timelessness”, which I think was the word she used, of certificates. I accept that some must always apply, but perhaps it is a point that the Government can take into account when thinking about publication of certificates whose relevance has—“expired” is probably the wrong term—passed.

I am still concerned about what is meant by “defence purposes”. The Minister referred to civilian staff. I cannot remember what the object was in the sentence, but we all know what she means by civilian staff. To take a trite example, can the Minister confirm that in “defence purposes”, we are not talking about records of holiday leave taken by cleaners, secretaries and so on working in the Ministry of Defence? “Defence purposes” could be read as something very broad. I will not ask the Minister to reply to that now, but perhaps I can leave the thought in her head.

Finally, I do not think that the right of appeal provides the same protection as applying oversight from the very start of the process. We have had that debate many times, but I shall leave it there for now. There is quite a lot to read, so I am grateful to the Minister for replying at such length.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for her response, which was very detailed. It was helpful to the House to get it on record. These are serious matters. The rights of the data subject must be protected, but equally there are issues of national security, and we must get that balance right. The House has been assured that we will get the balance right, which is an important part of our work here today. I am very pleased with the detailed response, and I have no issue with it whatever.

I shall read Hansard again tomorrow, as these are very serious matters, to fully take in all that the Minister has said. At this stage, I am happy to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment 124A withdrawn.

--- Later in debate ---

The last of the group is a converse argument—I am probing of course. Behaviour, location and movement may be relevant to crime prevention and detection, but are performance at work, reliability and so on relevant? Not obviously so to me. I beg to move.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

My Lords, the noble Baroness’s clarification of these probing amendments is very helpful. As we have heard, a competent authority in this context of the Bill means a person as specified in Schedule 7, to the extent that the person has functions for law enforcement purposes.

Amendments 124Q and 124R would add useful clarifications that the persons listed in Schedule 7 come under the same classification as “any other person” referred to in Clause 28(1)(b) and the persons listed in Clause 28(3)(b). That would be a useful clarification in the Bill.

I do not support Amendment 124S in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, but support the three government amendments in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Ashton of Hyde. As I say, I do not support Amendment 124S, which makes the case for Amendments 124Q and 124R even more important.

I support the amendment that would add police and crime commissioners to the schedule, and the other amendments in the group which would widen the definitions, as that would be very useful. I look forward to the noble Baroness’s response to the points that have been raised.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

The co-pilot is in charge of this leg of the legislative journey, so there may be some turbulence.

I am very grateful to the noble Baroness for her explanation of these amendments. I particularly welcome what she said at the beginning of her remarks—namely, that these were probing amendments designed to improve the style. We are all in favour of improving style. Having read previous Hansards, I know that there has been broad cross-party support for the Bill’s provisions, particularly this part of it. I know that the Liberal Democrat Benches are particular enthusiasts for enshrining in UK law the provisions of the EU law enforcement directive.

As the noble Baroness has indicated, this group of amendments relates to the definition of various terms used in Part 3, including that of a competent authority and the meaning of “profiling”. I also welcome the contribution of the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, in support of some of the amendments.

The scope of the law enforcement processing regime is provided for in Part 3 of the Bill. Unlike Part 4, which applies to all processing of personal data by the intelligence services, the scheme in Part 3 is purpose-driven. The Part 3 scheme applies to processing by competent authorities, as defined in Clause 28, for any of the law enforcement purposes, as defined in Clause 29. This approach is clear from a reading of Part 3 as a whole. For example, each of the data protection principles in Clauses 33 to 38 refers to processing for any of the law enforcement purposes.

The definition of a competent authority needs to be viewed in that context. Competent authorities will process personal data under the scheme in Part 3 only where such processing is for one of the law enforcement purposes. If they process data for another purpose, as the noble Baroness indicated—for example, for HR management purposes—the processing would be undertaken under either the GDPR or applied GDPR scheme, as the case may be. That would be the default regime. I am not sure there is a case for yet another regime on top of the two we already have. As paragraph 167 of the Explanatory Notes to the Bill makes clear, a government department will be a competent authority for the purposes of Part 3 only to the extent that it processes personal data for a law enforcement purpose. For example, where DWP processes data in the course of investigating criminal offences linked to benefit fraud, it will do so as a competent authority.

The approach we have taken in Schedule 7 is to list all the principal law enforcement agencies, including police forces, prosecutors and those responsible for offender management, but also to list other office holders and organisations that have law enforcement functions supplementary to their primary function. For example, the list in Schedule 7 includes some significant regulators. We should remember that the definition of “law enforcement purposes” includes the “execution of criminal penalties”, as set out in Clause 29. That being the case, it is entirely appropriate to list contractors providing offender management services. I hope this explanation deals with Amendment 129A. As I explained a moment ago, where such contractors process data for a non-law enforcement purpose—again, an example given by the noble Baroness—they will do so under the GDPR or applied GDPR scheme.

Schedule 7 is not, and is not intended to be, a wholly exhaustive list, and other organisations with incidental law enforcement functions will come within the scope of the definition of a competent authority by virtue of Clause 28(1)(b). Police and crime commissioners, to which Amendment 127A relates, may be a case in point, but if they process personal data for a law enforcement purpose, they will do so as a competent authority by virtue of Clause 28(1)(b). The government amendments in this group should be viewed against that backdrop.

Since the Bill was introduced, we have identified a number of other organisations that it would be appropriate to add to the list in Schedule 7, and Amendments 125, 126, 128 and 129 are directed to that end. Government Amendment 127 modifies the existing entry in respect of the independent office for police conduct in recognition of the fact that under the reforms we are making to the Independent Police Complaints Commission, the director-general will be the data controller of the reformed organisation.

The amendments to Clause 31 all seek to amend the definition of profiling. First, Amendment 129C seeks to include “attributes” in the definition of profiling, which currently refers to “aspects”. The existing wording reflects the terminology used in the LED, which is clear. In any event, the two words do not differ much in substance, so little is gained by the proposed addition.

In Amendment 129B and Amendments 129D to 129F the noble Baroness seeks to widen the definition of profiling so that it is not restricted to “certain” areas of profiling or to the aspects listed. However, the personal aspects itemised in the definition are not intended to act as an exhaustive list, and the inclusion of the words “certain” and “in particular” do not have this effect. The list refers to those aspects considered of most importance to profiling. Again, for these reasons, these amendments are not necessary. I think the noble Baroness conceded that we were simply replicating the existing terminology.

I hope I have been able to reassure her on these points and that she will be content to withdraw her Amendment 124Q and support the government amendments.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Hamwee]

My Lords, Amendment 133ZL is an amendment to Clause 42. Clause 43 deals with a data subject’s right of access. The onus is on the data subject to ask whether their personal data is being processed. If so, they have a right of access, although there are provisions about restrictions and the controller must tell them.

We have already touched on how you know that you are a data subject. The amendment would place an obligation on the controller to tell you. I appreciate that there would be considerable practical considerations. However, in a different context, time and again during the passage of the Bill we have heard noble Lords express surprise about what organisations know about each of us. It is irritating when it is a commercial organisation; it is a different matter when it is a law enforcement body.

Amendment 133ZM is a way of asking why the information to be given to a data subject under Clause 42(2) is limited to “specific cases”. Is this is a bit of the narrative style that I referred to earlier? Restrictions are set out later in the clause. What are the specific cases to which the controller’s duties are restricted? Should there be a cross-reference somewhere? The term suggests something more—or maybe something less—than the clause provides.

Amendment 133ZN takes us to Clause 42(4), which refers to the data subject’s “fundamental rights”— this phrase is used also in a number of other clauses. My amendment would insert references to the Human Rights Act and the European Charter of Fundamental Rights, seeking not to reopen the argument about the retention of the charter but to probe how fundamental rights are identified in UK law. It is not an expression that I recognise other than as a narrative term. This is fundamental—if noble Lords will forgive the pun—to my questioning and the workability of all this.

On Amendment 133ZP, the same subsection refers to an “official” inquiry. I know what that means in common sense—in human speak, if you like—but what does it mean in legislative speak?

Amendment 133ZQ is a cross-reference. I queried what was in the clause and have had exchanges with officials about it. I thought that the Minister’s name would be added to the amendment. I would have been very happy if the correction had been made quietly, but apparently that was not possible. So the drafting is not mine, but it corrects a mis-drafting—would that be a gentle term for it? At any rate, that is what the amendment is about. I beg to move.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

My Lords, the five amendments in this group are all in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, and the noble Lord, Lord Paddick. I should say at the start that I am not convinced by Amendment 133ZL and I look forward to the response of the Government. I am not sure that it is proportionate in respect of law enforcement processing. I had concerns about it before the debate and I have heard nothing to change my mind.

Amendment 133ZM widens the scope of the provisions and I am content with that. I am interested to hear from the Government why the three words to be deleted are so important: perhaps they can convince me of the merits of having them in the Bill.

Amendment 133ZN is proportionate and I happy to support it. I do not support Amendment 133ZP and, again, I have heard nothing yet to convince me otherwise. I await a response from the Government. Amendment 133ZQ seems proportionate to me in respect of the data controller being able to record reasons to restrict provision of information to a data subject and the reasons for refusing requests.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, for explaining her amendments in relation to the rights of data subjects. Having disappointed her so much in the last group of amendments, I have some very good news: the Government are content to agree to her Amendment 133ZQ. Perhaps it is right that I did not put my name to it, because she can claim full credit for the amendment, which corrects an erroneous cross-reference in Clause 46(6).

I turn to the other amendments in the group, which have a little more substance. Amendment 133ZL seeks to place a duty on controllers to inform individuals without undue delay that they are a data subject. The right of access conferred on data subjects by Clause 43 largely replicates the existing provision in Section 7 of the Data Protection Act 1998, as I think the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, pointed out. Clause 42 already includes obligations on the controller to provide individuals with information in general terms and in specific cases to enable a data subject to access their rights. We consider that this is the right approach and one which reflects the terms of the LED. We welcome the enhanced rights for data subjects provided for in Part 3, but it is important that such rights are proportionate and that we take account of the resource implications for police forces and other competent authorities. Placing a duty on controllers proactively to notify individuals that they are data subjects would, we believe, place an unnecessary burden on competent authorities. In practice, many individuals will know that their personal data is being processed by a particular controller; where they are unsure they can submit a subject access request. It is important to note that under the new regime subject access requests will generally be free of charge.

Amendment 133ZM seeks to probe the need for the phrase “in specific cases” in Clause 42(2). This phrase, which appears in article 13(2) of the law enforcement directive, is simply designed to distinguish between the duty on a controller, under Clause 42(1), to provide certain general information to data subjects which might be discharged by posting the information on the controller’s website, and the separate duty, in Clause 42(2), to provide certain additional information directly to a data subject to enable them to exercise their rights. Moreover, the information which must be provided under Clause 42(2) may be person-specific and the drafting makes this clear.

Amendment 133ZN seeks to define the term “fundamental rights” as used in Clause 42(4) and elsewhere in this part. This is not the occasion to reopen the debate we had at the start of Committee on article 8 of the European Charter of Fundamental Rights. The Committee will be aware that it is not the Government’s intention to enshrine the charter into UK law. That being the case, and recognising that Part 3 of the Bill provides for a scheme for law enforcement processing which is enshrined in our domestic law, the reference to fundamental rights should be interpreted in accordance with UK law by the UK courts, rather than seeking to enshrine the charter.

In Amendment 133ZP to Clause 42(4)(a), the noble Baroness seeks clarification of what constitutes an “official inquiry”, as opposed to a “legal inquiry”. I start by pointing out that the law enforcement directive uses both terms, and we have followed our usual practice of copying the directive wherever possible. There are, of course, legally constituted inquiries established under the Inquiries Act 2005, but not all official inquiries are formally constituted under that Act. The use of both terms recognises that formally constituted inquiries may take different forms and be conducted by different entities. It is important to emphasise that a controller is subject to the limitations in the opening words of Clause 42(4) and cannot restrict the provision of information simply by virtue of the fact that the information pertains to an inquiry.

I hope that I have been able to reassure the noble Baroness—she certainly looks happier than on the previous group of amendments—and that she will be content to withdraw her Amendment 133ZL. As I have indicated, I will be happy to endorse Amendment 133ZQ when she comes to move it formally.

Data Protection Bill [HL]

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Excerpts

2nd reading (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Tuesday 10th October 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab)]

My Lords, we welcome the Bill generally and support the main principles, but that is not to say that we do not have issues that we intend to raise during the passage of the Bill where we believe that improvements could be made. We will certainly test the Government’s assertion that the Bill will ensure that we can be confident that our data is safe as we make the transition into a future digital world.

My noble friend Lord Knight of Weymouth highlighted some of the challenges that we face in the use of data, the consent that we give and how we can have greater control—or, in fact, any control at all—as data and the use of data grow exponentially. In his contribution, the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, highlighted the complexity of these matters. That is the problem—the constant growth in complexity and our ability to understand the changes as they run away with themselves. We are aware that there will be a number of government amendments to the Bill. When we see those, we will be able to take a view on them. But the fact that we can expect such a large number at this early stage of the Bill makes one wonder how prepared the Government are for this new challenge.

The broad aim of the Bill is to update the UK’s data protection regime in accordance with the new rules, as agreed at European level. It is important as we prepare to leave the European Union that we have strong, robust laws on data protection that ensure that we have up-to-date legislation that is on a par with the best in the world to protect individuals, businesses and the UK as a whole and to play our part in ensuring that the UK remains a place where it is difficult for criminals to operate. As the noble Lord, Lord Jay, said in his contribution covering the report of the European Union Home Affairs Sub-Committee, the amount of cross-border data flows to the UK cannot be overstated, with services accounting for 44% of the UK’s total global exports and three-quarters of the UK’s cross-border data flows being with other EU countries. The UK must remain a place where people and organisations all over the world want to do business and a place that has safety and robust protection at its heart.

The noble Baroness, Lady Lane-Fox of Soho, made important points about the need for the UK to be the best and safest place in the world to trade online. Her contribution to debates in your Lordships’ House to make the Bill the best it can be will be of vital importance as the Bill makes progress. The noble Baroness is right that a lot of education is needed to prepare the public and business for the changes.

The concerns of business must be taken into account. When the noble Baroness, Lady Williams of Trafford, responds to the debate, I hope she will refer to the concerns expressed by small businesses. In particular, will she explain what plans the Government have to ensure that small businesses are aware of the changes and the action that they need to take? These are the sorts of businesses that are the backbone of the country. They are not able to employ expensive lawyers or have compliance departments to advise them on the action that needs to be taken. We need a targeted awareness campaign from the Government and the regulator and small-business-friendly support and guidance rolled out in good time so that the necessary changes can be made. I fully understand the concerns that businesses have in this regard and the Government must respond to those positively.

The Bill implements the general data protection regulation—GDPR—standards across all general data processing and the Opposition support that. As we have heard in the debate, the UK will need to satisfy the European Commission that our legislative framework ensures an adequate level of protection. The Commission will need to be satisfied on a wide variety of issues to give a positive advocacy decision, and when we leave the European Union we will still have to satisfy the high adequacy standards to ensure that we can trade with the European Union and the world. Those too are matters that we will test in Committee.

Important principles of lawfulness in obtaining data and the consent of individuals to their data being held are set out in the Bill. My noble friend Lady Jay of Paddington made important points about how to achieve a better-educated public about the use of their data, the media and online literacy, and the risks to them of the abuse of their data.

The additional GDPR rights which strengthen and add to an individual’s rights, as set out in the Data Protection Act 1998, are a positive step forward. We have all seen examples of people’s data being held unlawfully and the measures in this Bill should help in that respect. There is also the issue of data held about all of us that is confidential, such as medical and health data, and ensuring that it is processed in a confidential way is something we would all support, alongside the proper use of health data to combat disease and improve healthcare through proper research. A number of noble Lords have made reference to that, and certainly nothing should be done which would endanger research that saves lives.

The right to be forgotten is an important concept, particularly where the consent was given as a child, although we will want to probe why the right of erasure of personal data is restricted to 18 years and above, particularly when the consent may have been given when the individual was 13 years of age. Cyberbullying is a dreadful experience for anyone and it is important that we are very clear during the passage of the legislation on how people are able to protect themselves from this abuse. The Bill will formalise the age at which a child can consent to the processing of data at 13 years in the UK, which is the lowest possible age in the EU. The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chelmsford referred to this point in his contribution and I agree with him about the need for further consultation with parents and the public, a point also made by the noble Baroness, Lady Howe.

The noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, made an excellent contribution and she is right to say that children are no match for a number of the very powerful tech companies. I too read carefully the briefings from the Children’s Society and YoungMinds on this matter. All the major online platforms have a minimum user age of 13, although the vast majority of young people—some 73% according to the survey—have their first social media account before they are 13. This is an issue that will rightly get a lot of attention from noble Lords. On reading the briefing note I could see the point being made that setting the age at 16 could have an adverse effect in tackling grooming, sexual exploitation and abuse. If we wanted to go down the route of increasing the age when someone can consent to the use of their personal data, we must at the same time make significant changes to the grooming and sexual offences legislation, again a point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Howe, in her remarks. It would be wrong to make this change in isolation because it actually risks making the online world more dangerous for young people.

In responding to the debate, will the noble Baroness, Lady Williams of Trafford, set out how the Government decided that 13 was the appropriate age of consent for children to access social media and does she believe, as I do, that the social media companies need to do much more to protect children when they are online? What consultation did the Government undertake before deciding that 13 years was the correct age, a question put by many noble Lords in the debate?

There are also the important issues of protecting vulnerable people in general, not only children but the elderly as well. As my noble friend Lord Stevenson of Balmacara said, the Government have an opportunity to allow independent organisations acting in the public interest to bring collective redress actions or super-complaints for breaches in data protection rules. They have not done so, and this may be an error on their part as the super-complaint system works well in other fields. It would enable an effective system of redress for consumers to be put in place. It could also be contended that just having such a system in place would have a positive effect in terms of organisations making sure that they are compliant and not tempted to cut corners, and generally make for a stronger framework.

The Opposition support the approach of transposing the law enforcement directive into UK law through this Bill. It is important that we have consistent standards across specific law enforcement activities. In the briefing, the Information Commissioner raised the issue of overview and scope as detailed in Clause 41. It would be helpful, when responding to the debate, if the Minister could provide further clarification in respect of the policy intention behind the restriction on individuals being able to approach the Information Commissioner to exercise their rights.

The processing of personal data by the intelligence services is of the utmost importance. Keeping their citizens safe is the number one priority of the Government. We need to ensure that our intelligence services have the right tools and are able to work within modern international standards, including the required safeguards, so that existing, new and emerging threats to the safety and security of the country are met. These are fine lines and it is important that we get them right.

The point made by a number of noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord Jay, and the noble Baroness, Lady Ludford, that our position as a third country on leaving the EU may leave us subject to meeting a higher threshold is a matter for concern. I hope the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, will respond to that specific point when she replies to the debate.

The Information Commissioner having an independent authority responsible for regulating the GDPR—which will also act as the supervisory authority in respect of the law enforcement provisions as set out in Part 3 of the Bill—is welcome, as is the designation of the commissioner as the authority under Convention 108. I welcome the proposal to consult the commissioner on legislation and other measures that relate to data processing. The commissioner has an important international role and I fully support her playing a role in the various EU bodies she engages with, up until the point when we leave the EU. We must also be satisfied in this House that we have sufficiently robust procedures in place so that we will work closely with our EU partners after we have left the EU. Failure to do so could have serious repercussions for the UK as a whole, our businesses and our citizens. Data flows in and out of the UK are a complex matter and the regulator needs authority when dealing with others beyond the UK. That is something we will have to test carefully as the Bill passes through your Lordships’ House.

The clauses of the Bill in respect of enforcement are generally to be welcomed. It is important that the commissioner retains the power to ensure data is properly protected. I agree very much with the noble Lord, Lord McNally, about the importance of ensuring that the Information Commissioner remains adequately funded. It is right that those powers are used proportionally in relation to the specific matters at hand, using, where appropriate, non-criminal enforcement, financial penalties and, where necessary, criminal prosecution. As I said, we need a proper programme of information to ensure that small businesses in particular are ready for the changes and new responsibilities they will take on.

One of the issues we have to address is the challenge that technology brings and how our legislation will remain fit for purpose and accepted by other competent authorities outside our jurisdiction—particularly by the European Union after we leave it.

In conclusion, this in an important Bill. As the Opposition, we can support its general direction, but we have concerns about the robustness of what is proposed. We will seek to probe, challenge and amend the Bill to ensure that it really does give us the legalisation the UK needs to protect its citizens’ data and its lawful use.

Modern Slavery (Victim Support) Bill [HL]

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Excerpts

2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Friday 8th September 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab)]

My Lords, as other noble Lords have done, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord McColl of Dulwich, on bringing his Bill forward and on securing such an early spot in the ballot for Private Members’ Bills. That certainly bodes well for the future. It is a good Bill. As we have heard from the excellent speeches today, there is considerable support across the House for it to become law, and I am delighted that that is the case. Every single speaker from every Bench today has spoken in support of it.

Like my noble friend Lady Thornton, I am a Labour and Co-operative Party Member of your Lordships’ House. The Co-operative Party and the Co-operative Group are fully supportive of the Bill and are ready to give the noble Lord, Lord McColl, any assistance they can in order to secure this legislation. A swift passage through this noble House will help the Bill enormously on its way to the statute book.

As we have already heard this afternoon, the Modern Slavery Act 2015 is an excellent piece of legislation. When she was Home Secretary, the Prime Minister brought the legislation into law. It has been welcomed in all quarters, and rightly so. The draft Bill, the Joint Committee and the consensual approach by the Government to the parliamentary proceedings were enormously helpful in securing that legislation. Having said that, the significant omission in the legislation is its response to victims, which my noble friend Lord Anderson of Swansea referred to.

The noble Lord, Lord McColl, was right when he told the House that the needs of victims must be at the forefront of efforts and we must work to restore the dignity, health and opportunities that abusers have taken from the victims. The noble Baroness, Lady Bottomley, also referred to the need to develop a pathway for abused people to move from being victims into recovery. The noble Baroness, Lady Newlove, made a powerful case in support of victims, as she always does in this House. The noble Baroness, Lady Stroud, again spoke of the need to have a framework to help the move from victim to survivor.

In both Northern Ireland and Scotland, legislation passed at Stormont and Holyrood means that help and support to victims is provided during a reflection and recovery period, so the legislation in both Northern Ireland and Scotland is superior at least in that respect in comparison with what applies in England and Wales. The noble Lord, Lord Morrow, who is no longer in his place, spoke about the Bill that he took through the Northern Ireland Assembly and how that Act provides for victims’ care. I support his call for the legislation in England and Wales to be updated. The noble Lord, Lord Bew, also made that point in his contribution. The Bill corrects that and is very welcome. It brings England and Wales into line with best practice and delivers the equality of access that the noble Lord, Lord McColl of Dulwich, referred to in his contribution.

The Bill will guarantee all confirmed victims of modern slavery a minimum recovery period with casework support. As we have heard in this debate, at the moment, once a victim has been confirmed by the competent authority, government-funded specialist support quickly ends. That position is unrealistic and potentially very damaging for the victims. Vulnerable people are left at risk of destitution or the nightmare of returning to the hands of the traffickers and being subjected to horrendous abuse in a vicious circle.

The Human Trafficking Foundation, in its excellent briefing, highlighted how the existing provisions are failing victims in legal cases where individuals have been found by the UK authorities to have been trafficked and were co-operating with the police but were then left destitute. There is also a case referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Morrow, where, in November 2016, Bristol City Council accepted that local authorities in England and Wales had a responsibility to provide welfare support to victims or would be in breach of their obligations under the European Convention on Human Rights and the Convention on Action Against Trafficking and/or the EU anti-trafficking directive. The noble Lord, Lord McColl, referred to that when introducing the Bill. This came about after a trafficking victim brought legal action because she was only able to provide for herself by engaging in prostitution.

We have further heard about the findings of the Work and Pensions Committee’s inquiry into modern slavery, which was published earlier this year and is critical of the lack of support for victims. The committee recommended that all confirmed victims of modern slavery be given at least one year’s leave to remain with recourse to benefits and services. The committee was also very clear that it found no evidence that granting 12 months’ discretionary leave would create any sort of pull factor. It would be fair to say that it is just not plausible to believe that it would.

The noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Carey of Clifton, spoke of the need for individuals to receive personalised support as they begin the process of recovery. The noble Baroness, Lady Cox, also made an important point about the risk of retrafficking and how important the 12 months’ support is.

The Independent Anti-slavery Commissioner Kevin Hyland, who was mentioned many times in the debate, has also called for more support for victims and has highlighted the fact that the present system is not serving them well. If it is not serving these victims, that is a major failing of our present legislation and must be rectified. When you consider the horrendous abuse and threats that the victims of modern slavery have endured, and the risk of threats and violence to them and their families, it takes great courage to come forward to the authorities. They put themselves at risk of further suffering and not being properly supported.

The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Derby rightly drew the attention of the House to the evidence-based policy that underpins the Bill following the work of the anti-slavery commissioner, the Work and Pensions Select Committee and those who work in the charity sector on behalf of victims.

The noble Lord, Lord Shinkwin, stressed the need to complete this unfinished business and properly support victims. I fully support him in that call.

The Bill would ensure that victims, when identified, would have guaranteed access to front-line specialist support that includes any necessary medical treatment, safe accommodation and further long-term support to take the victim through the next stage of the recovery process where understandably very serious and complex needs can be addressed.

I particularly want to pay tribute to the work of the Co-operative Group in helping victims through its Bright Future initiative. Along with other charities, the Co-op is supporting individuals who have been granted special leave under the present system by providing work placements in its businesses and helping to equip people with the skills they need. As the noble Baroness, Lady Bottomley, said in her contribution, the Co-op is an excellent example of what a good employer should be doing.

While I am on the subject, I commend the Co-operative Group on how it has worked to prepare its statement on modern slavery and the work it has done to ensure that its supply chains are free of this evil. I am proud to have been a member of the Co-op for 40 years, which is as long as I have been a member of the Labour Party. It has set an example of best practice for business and all should be aspiring to it.

The benefits of granting an automatic right to leave would, as I mentioned earlier, help with the long-term recovery programme and rehabilitation programme and would also prevent retrafficking. It also would further strengthen the original Modern Slavery Act and empower victims to co-operate fully with police investigations and help to secure convictions of the people involved in this evil crime. Victimless prosecutions are possible, but the testimony of victims can provide compelling evidence to put before a jury in order to help secure a conviction, as the noble Lord, Lord McColl of Dulwich, told us, and as was referred to by the noble Baroness, Lady Redfern. There is the further argument that the automatic grant of leave would free up valuable resources to be used in other ways to deal with this horrendous crime.

My noble friend Lord Prescott referred to the international framework and how that affects modern slavery and the challenges that we are all seeking to combat today.

Every Bill before your Lordships’ House can of course be improved by amendment, and I have moved many amendments here. It is also widely accepted that Private Members’ Bills have an honourable tradition of dealing with issues that have widespread support but perhaps not always the support of the Government. They can also be narrow in their scope because they deal with particular issues. The process of going through Parliament is a precarious one for Private Members’ Bills without the active support of the Government, so I hope that amendments are tabled only if there is no other way of seeking changes; namely, that they cannot be delivered through regulation or another mechanism. The last thing anyone would want is for this Bill not to become law because it had been dashed on the rocks and lost through amendments in Committee or on Report. As my noble friend Lady Thornton said, piecemeal amendments would cause problems. People should think very carefully before they seek to move amendments to the Bill.

This has been an excellent debate on a truly important Bill that will strengthen an otherwise excellent Modern Slavery Act. I hope that when the noble Baroness, Lady Williams of Trafford, responds to this debate imminently, she will be able to indicate that the Government are supportive of its aim and will give it their wholehearted support, and if necessary give it government time to secure it. As has everyone else, I thank the noble Lord, Lord McColl, for his campaigning, his tenacity, his compassion and his defence of the victims of this truly horrendous crime, and his steely determination to get this Bill on to the statute book.

Brexit: UK-EU Movement of People (EUC Report)

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Excerpts

Monday 17th July 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab)]

My Lords, like others, I start by thanking the noble Baroness, Lady Prashar, and her committee for their excellent report, which was published on 17 March this year and debated in your Lordships’ House today. It is disappointing that, again, we have had no response to the report from the Government. This has become something of a regular occurrence and is most regrettable. No doubt the Minister will apologise for this failing on behalf of the Government when she replies to the debate shortly. I know that her apology will be sincere. I have great respect for her, but she really must impress upon her colleagues in government that not responding to these reports is disrespectful—in this case, to the noble Baroness, Lady Prashar, to the committee and to the whole House. The Government really must sharpen up their act here.

The noble Lord, Lord Green of Deddington, thinks that the report is a missed opportunity. I do not agree with him in that respect. I think the report highlights key concerns and poses key questions for the Government, although, again, the lack of government response is remiss and would have helped our debate here today.

No one can doubt that we are in a tricky situation at the moment. The general approach taken by the Government to Brexit is at best puzzling. It could also be described as mean-spirited and it certainly does not put jobs and the economy first. We seem to be approaching the negotiation with a kind of scorched-earth policy: everything concerning the EU must be thrown out. My noble friend Lord Judd was right to say that we are moving forward on the basis of an amateur intuition, and that is just not good enough.

The Government seem more concerned with the internal troubles of the Conservative Party, with various Cabinet Ministers briefing against each other. You have only to look at today’s newspapers to see the shambles the Government are in: Philip Hammond complaining about being briefed against and being outed for his ridiculous comments; Boris Johnson and David Davis fighting over who will succeed the Prime Minister, who has been fatally wounded by the appalling general election she ran—it is a matter of when she steps down in this Parliament, not if; and I am sure Michael Gove is in there somewhere, rummaging around. This is not a great advert for the country or the best way for us to prepare. In Brussels, the European Commission and every capital city and country in the European Union, there will be no doubt in anyone’s mind—or in any briefing written for the Ministers of other nations—about the mess we are in.

This excellent report looks at one of the key pledges of the Government—to control the number of people who come to Britain from the European Union—and what that can mean in practice. The noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames, spoke about the particular issues faced by people living in Northern Ireland, which will share the only land border with the European Union. Making sure that people’s basic needs are protected is important, and it is essential that reassurance is given to people who live in the border areas. I have many friends who live on both sides of the border, and my parents and many members of my family live in the Republic. I understand the issues the noble and right reverend Lord raises.

The noble and learned Lord, Lord Brown of Eaton-under-Heywood, referred to the ECJ and the Government’s current take on it, which in the end I am sure will prove to be unsustainable in seeking agreement. He is right that this is an absurd red-line issue.

The free movement of people is one of the four freedoms that underpin the single market; the others being, of course, the free movement of goods, services and capital. As we have heard previously in your Lordships’ House, the Maastricht treaty introduced the concept of EU citizenship and the 2004 citizens’ rights directive codified various rights for citizens, which have been transposed into UK law. The Government have made it clear that they are going to put an end to the free movement of people and will not be seeking membership of the single market; instead, they will seek access through a free trade agreement. Membership of the EEA, or the arrangement Switzerland has, involves accepting the free movement of people in return for broad-based preferential access to the single market. The more recent EU-Canada agreement does not include the free movement of people but provides for much more limited tariff-free access to the single market.

Immigration to the UK comes from the EU and from non-EU countries, and immigration from non-EU countries has generally been higher than from EU countries. Those arriving from EU countries have generally come to work, with 72% of people arriving in the UK stating that as their reason. The exact opposite is the case in respect of UK citizens leaving the UK, with a much larger proportion nearing retirement or having retired already. The noble Lord, Lord Kirkhope of Harrogate, made an important point about why people immigrate and what a wide term “immigration” is. He is right that lots of work has taken place to integrate people and that this country has a proud record as a safe haven. I agree with his comments about the International Passenger Survey, which the noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, among others, also referred to.

The noble Baroness, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb, was right to say that we live in a kind and considerate country. I could not agree with her more when she said that if you go into hospital you are more likely to be treated by an immigrant than be in the queue with one. I am the eldest son of immigrants: my parents came from Ireland to make a life for themselves. They worked their whole working life, paid their taxes and made a positive contribution. My mum was a nurse in the NHS for many years. The noble Lord, Lord Oates, was right to point out that the Conservative Party had made a pledge on immigration that had been very damaging and it had never sought to champion the positives that immigrants can bring to the UK.

The noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, looked at the spontaneity of free movement and rightly highlighted the issues that Brexit will bring to the creative industries. I fully support the campaign by the Musicians’ Union to highlight the problems faced by musicians working for short periods needing quickly to find work moving round the European Union. The industry is worth billions and billions of pounds to the UK economy and cannot operate effectively if their right to move freely is lost. We have some of the most talented people in the world working in the creative industries, and they need the support of the Government to protect their ability to move and work to make a living for themselves, and contribute to our economy.

The noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, referred to the desire of the Government to reduce net migration and the disconnect between immigrants coming here to work and people leaving the UK to retire. He also made valid points about the International Passenger Survey. The report highlighted the problems there are with data, and this is not a good place to be. Policy must be evidenced based and, if the evidence is under question or not available, that does not provide Ministers and other policymakers the solid evidence base they need to make decisions.

My noble friend Lady Massey of Darwen highlighted how little consideration has been given to children when Brexit has been discussed. Her contribution was a timely reminder of how much work needs to be done in this area.

The report also highlighted the problems with different measures. We have discussed the problem with UN-recommended definitions, and I recall debates in this House where it has been suggested that other measures should be used alongside the UN definition in respect of counting students. Whatever decisions are made in respect of immigration from the EU, jobs and the needs of business, industry and the economy must be at the forefront of government policy. The Government have said that they want to protect the entitlements that UK nationals currently enjoy as a result of EU free movement rules. That is a welcome aim, which I support, but, as the committee highlighted, how realistic it is will depend on what the UK proposes, and we are all well aware that the proposals made by the UK Government have not received a warm welcome. It could have been so different, as many of us have said. A generous statement right at the start could have got the negotiations off to a much better start, but the Government took a different view and we are living with that decision.

The report highlights that the UK and EU may find themselves negotiating which elements of full integration they want to get out of the single market, which the noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, referred to. Again, that seems to be an absurd position. It is possible that the UK could find itself in the same position in respect of free movement of people. The worst situation would be to end up with UK nationals being treated as third-country nationals in EU countries, and vice versa. The noble Baroness, Lady Janke, referred to those points in her contribution. I hope that, as the report highlights, we get new reciprocal and preferential arrangements for EU-UK migration, although, as the report also says, this will not be easy. There is some question as to whether it would be in scope. There could be a real risk of UK citizens becoming third-country nationals for the purposes of EU law and the domestic immigration rules of EU member states, once the UK leaves the EU. This is a matter of huge concern, in particular to UK nationals living elsewhere in the EU. I hope that the Minister will be able to respond to that specific point and address those concerns when she speaks shortly.

The report also focuses on the fact that, with the link between free movement of people and the single market, arrangements for future migration and a free trade agreement could require much longer than the two years provided for as part of the Article 50 negotiations, so transitional arrangements may be needed while these negotiations continue. Can the Minister comment on the attitude of the British Government to transitional arrangements?

The free movement of persons will of course end when we leave the European Union and any agreement will set out the arrangements for people from the EU wanting to come to the UK and for those UK citizens wanting to move to a country in the European Union. As I highlighted earlier, immigration to the UK from the EU is primarily for work. Employer organisations are understandably worried as to the effect this will have on business and their ability to bring the workers who are needed. The noble Lord, Lord Trees, highlighted the problems regarding the challenges Brexit poses to the veterinary profession, and to other science and healthcare professions. He made the point well in respect of Brexit further exposing the risk and the crisis that is looming large. The noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, made an important point about the need for frictionless movement. He referred to how the employer organisations were fundamentally against any sort of system that would increase the paperwork—the pages and forms to be filled in—and how unattractive that could be for everyone involved.

Like other noble Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Stunell, referred to high and low-skilled employment and the fact that pay levels are no indicator of skill levels. I agree with him that the nursing profession is a highly skilled profession, which we all have need of from time to time. However, it perhaps does not command the highest salaries.

The report highlights that the Government may be tempted to introduce a work permit scheme, with numerous exemptions for seasonal workers and other categories. This would fail to deliver a meaningful reduction in immigration while proving to be onerous and costly for employers, the workers and the enforcement agencies, as we have heard from other noble Lords. I agree very much with the committee: the Government must not close off options for themselves as negotiations proceed, while there could be many benefits to the UK in offering preferential treatment to EU nationals.

The report also presents some challenges to the Government and their thinking in respect of migrant labour from the EU. Perhaps the Minister could address the specific question of preferential treatment for high-skilled migration in relation to low-skilled migration, as there does not appear to have been an increase in highly-skilled jobs in the UK.

The committee also questions the link between the availability of migrant labour from the EU and the incentive to train or upgrade the skills of resident workers in the UK. If there is an issue here, should not government have been dealing with this anyway—and by that I mean previous Governments as well as this one—over many decades, through vocational education and training plans and policies? Investing in the skills of the workforce should be a priority for the Government across a range of industries and specialisms. The fact that there are problems here could be one of the issues that led people to vote to leave the European Union last year.

I agree with the committee that reducing EU immigration is unlikely to deal with the problem of low wages. Other factors at play here go beyond any effect of EU nationals coming to work here in the UK; the committee rightly points to that fact. We should look at the self-employed EU migrant worker but also at the deregulation and flexibility of working life generally, and whether we have struck the right balance. The report questions assumptions about UK workers filling jobs vacated by EU migrant workers and challenges the evidence for that assumption.

As I said earlier, these are difficult times for our country, and decisions made by the Government should be on evidence-based policy. Changes to the availability of migrant workers will vary from sector to sector. I see huge concerns in the agriculture industry, for example. I agree very much with the committee’s point that it is important not to endanger the UK economy and that any transition should be phased in over time.

I again thank the noble Baroness, Lady Prashar, for the excellent report she has brought to the attention of the House today. I wish the Government every success in negotiating an exit from the European Union. I fully respect the decision taken, although some of the claims made by the leave campaign were outrageous. Equally, key members of the Cabinet conducting their leadership campaigns and making ridiculous statements do not help us, as we saw with the Foreign Secretary only last week.

In conclusion, I have enormous respect for the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, and always listen carefully to his contributions. I did not know until this debate that he had been chucked off the committee and I was sorry to learn that. It is a shame. He was right to speak about people needing appropriate skills when picking certain crops. I know Lincolnshire very well and lived in the East Midlands for many years, so I agree with him very much on that. I thank the noble Baroness again for her report and look forward to the Minister’s response.

Brexit: Acquired Rights (EUC Report)

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Excerpts

Tuesday 4th July 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab)]

My Lords, first, as have other noble Lords, I congratulate my noble friend Lady Kennedy of The Shaws and the other members of the European committee on their excellent report. I should make it clear that I wanted the United Kingdom to remain a member of the European Union. That, for me, was the best place for us to increase our prosperity, protect jobs and living standards and maximise our influence in the world, where we increasingly see spheres of influence on a global rather than national basis.

It is disappointing that the Government have not responded to the report. It is not the first time that House reports have been either not responded to before debates or responses have arrived just a day or two before the debate. It is disrespectful to the House, and the Government need to sharpen up their act in this respect.

Having said that, I fully respect that the decision of the UK was to leave the European Union, although I sometimes feel that some of the outrageous claims made by the leave campaign need referencing again. We forget “£350 million a week for the NHS if we leave Europe”, when Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and others stood in front of that poster during the leave campaign. Of course, they were given the opportunity to vote for that in the Commons, but they voted against it. We need to keep reminding people what went on in that campaign; some of it was quite outrageous.

We need a Brexit that protects British citizens, jobs and investment. For all the Government’s claims, it has not been going too well so far. Their position can be characterised as to talk big and tough in the UK, threaten walkouts and demand that a trade deal be the first thing on the table, but, when we get to the detail, there is a climb-down and a negotiation set out on the timescale determined by our 27 European partners. The noble Baroness, Lady Bloomfield of Hinton Waldrist, referred to the Government’s offer to the European Union. It is a start, that is for sure, but I suspect that it is far from where we will need to get to for an agreement acceptable to both UK and the European Union.

The Government’s approach so far has been far from sensible in the preparation for and the process of negotiating our exit from the European Union, as the noble Viscount, Lord Waverley, mentioned. He is right to say that we need an equitable agreement to separate, but that this could get out of hand and the Government could be accused of playing poker with people’s lives.

My noble friend’s report considers one of the most important aspects that has arisen from Brexit: what happens to the rights on which so many of us rely when the UK leaves the European Union. The report focuses specifically on the rights of those European Union citizens who have chosen to live here in the UK and those UK citizens who have chosen to live elsewhere in the European Union. In both cases, they are choosing to exercise their right to live and work anywhere in the European Union. The report looks at the issue of acquired rights and whether people will be able to rely on this protection under international law. There is great concern for those European Union citizens living here and British nationals living elsewhere in the European Union that this protection will not be enough, and to ensure proper protection it must be enshrined in the Brexit agreement.

Since the referendum we could have struck a very different note, of course, and straightaway made it clear that the rights of European Union citizens would be protected in full in the UK, as long as a similar guarantee was given to British citizens living elsewhere in the European Union, as the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Newnham, said. That is not giving away a card or a negotiating point; it would have been a sensible move, acting in good faith with your friends, allies and partners, whom we want to remain our friends, allies and partners after we leave the European Union.

The concept of being a citizen of the European Union was first introduced into EU law by the Maastricht treaty in 1992; the citizens directive codified many of these rights, and it applies to the EEA states as well. All these rights are directly enforceable; they do not need to be granted by a member state. The rights of non-EU nationals in the UK are considerably more restrictive than the rights of EU nationals in the UK, meaning that the loss of EU citizenship would create a major loss of rights. After Brexit, the UK will become a third country for the purpose of EU law. UK nationals in other EU member states will become subject to common EU immigration rules for third-country nationals. I accept that all this depends on the agreement finally reached, which is why we should be on the front foot and positive.

Third-country nationals would have considerably fewer rights and have more restrictions when it comes to living, working and studying in the EU. British citizens may have to satisfy integration rules and apply for EU long-term residency status if resident in a member state for five years. There are concerns from citizens of other member states living here in the UK. This was brought home to me the day after the referendum result. There is a cafe that I often call into for a coffee and a croissant on my way into the Lords, which is run by two French people. They asked me the following morning whether they would be made to go back to France. These are people who have built up a business here; they employ local people and provide a great service to the local community. They play by the rules and make a positive contribution to the economy. They will be fine; they have lived here for many years, but they are one example of people living in uncertainty every day. My noble friend Lord Judd made a similar observation from the village where he lives in Cumbria.

There are thousands of EU nationals in the same uncertain position, and with uncertainty comes loss of confidence and loss of opportunity, and we all lose. My noble friend Lord Judd correctly identified how much uncertainty has been caused for families. I just do not understand how the Government think that that attitude will benefit the UK and its reputation and standing in the world.

The largest group of EU nationals living here include Polish, Romanian and French nationals. We have seen a rise in hate crimes and xenophobic abuse, which is shameful. The UK has a proud reputation as a safe, tolerant country which welcomes people and is a safe haven for people in peril, and on a number of fronts that reputation in recent times has been tarnished. UN statistics estimate that there are 1.2 million UK nationals living elsewhere in the European Union. Concerns have been expressed by UK citizens resident abroad to consular officials through FCO channels, including worries such as whether they will be able to continue living abroad or have to apply for residency. Will their qualifications be recognised? Will they require work permits? These concerns of UK nationals living elsewhere bear a striking similarity to those of EU nationals living in the UK. The noble Duke, the Duke of Somerset, made reference to this; there are huge concerns about the effect that it is having on people’s lives, and I agree very much with the remarks that he made today.

Those are the two groups of people most affected individually by Brexit, and neither is supportive of how the British Government have handled the negotiations so far. I agree very much with the committee when it says the Government have a moral obligation to provide certainty to UK nationals living, studying and working in the European Union. I agree that the most certain way to protect acquired rights is to put them into the agreement. The noble Baroness, Lady Williams of Trafford, could tell the House whether she agrees with that when she responds to this debate, because the protection of these rights by any other means seems fraught with difficulty. Article 70 of the Vienna convention protects acquired rights, but refers to states rather than individuals or companies. The principle of acquired rights in international law relates primarily to property rights. Public or civic rights to vote or reside in a particular state are not enforced under this agreement.

It could be said that the protection of acquired rights can be sought and enforced under the European Convention on Human Rights, as my noble friend Lady Kennedy of The Shaws referred to when moving the Motion. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Brown of Eaton-under-Heywood, was entirely correct when he referred to the “unfair demonisation” of the convention by various individuals and organisations. He is right that the Government are going to have to modify their ideological opposition to the convention. Thankfully, we have not pulled out of the convention—we are still a signatory—and I hope we never do. However, it all gets very messy, complicated and difficult; not effective, not good for individuals, not good for the UK. While any rights safeguarded in the withdrawal agreement should be enforceable, the agreement should freeze the legal situation at the moment of exit, so that all rights are at that point until repealed or altered by Parliament. My noble friend Lady Kennedy of The Shaws referred to that and her point about who is the final arbiter needs answering.

There is still time for the Government to make a more positive offer to our partners in Europe. Whether we are in or out of Europe, in whatever form, Europe will remain our major trading partner in all respects. It is the place our citizens will interact with first, be drawn to and enjoy. For Europe’s citizens, the same is true of this wonderful country, with our culture, history, love of sport, aptitude for business and the generosity of the British people. The country deserves better from the Government as we bring into effect probably the most important decision we have made since the Second World War.

This excellent report, so ably introduced by my noble friend Lady Kennedy of The Shaws, shows the Government what they need to do in respect of acquired rights. They should follows its recommendations; it will go a long way to getting the good deal that we all want as we leave the European Union.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Kennedy of The Shaws]

I want to ask the noble Baroness a similar question. I raised an issue that arose from a letter that the committee received. It involves a family where an Englishman is married to an Italian wife, his wife is an only child and her parents are elderly and in Italy. It is expected that, when one of her parents—the in-laws—dies, the lone in-law is allowed to come here, but it may not be within the next two years. What happens in that situation? Will it be possible for an in-law left alone in another country in Europe to be able to join their daughter or son to live here?

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

Can I possibly ask a question and then we can get it all out in one go? The noble Baroness just said that families can apply for settled status. Is applying for settled status a formality, or could it be refused?

Terrorist Attacks

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Excerpts

Thursday 22nd June 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for repeating the Statement made by the Home Secretary in the other place earlier today. I first pay tribute to the emergency services, the police, the fire brigade, the ambulance service, the doctors, nurses and other staff in our NHS and the other security services which responded with courage, bravery and dedication to duty to preserve life and protect the public. We owe these heroes a great debt of gratitude, and we must never forget that.

I also send my thoughts and prayers and those of the whole House to the victims of these disgusting terrorist atrocities and to their families and friends. Since the Dissolution of the previous Parliament there have been atrocities in the Manchester Arena, at London Bridge and Borough Market and at Finsbury Park mosque. I support the police and the security services in investigating these matters fully and bringing the perpetrators to justice. I was pleased to see the bravery of PC Keith Palmer, who gave his life protecting us in this palace, recognised with a posthumous George Medal and that pensioner Bernard Kenny, who was stabbed trying to help Jo Cox MP when she was murdered in her constituency last June, also received the George Medal in the Queen’s Birthday Honours List announced on Saturday. There were countless other acts of bravery from the police, the other emergency services and members of the public dealing with the recent atrocities. Civilians stood up and stepped in to help those in need, and we are very grateful to them all. They are true examples of the British spirit and show why no terrorist will ever win.

I am not going to trade figures on the number of police officers and other specialists as they are all in the public view. There were more in 2010, and there are fewer in 2017. We welcome the increase in the number of police officers and other specialists to give the law enforcement agencies the staffing, powers and resourcing to do their job effectively, but we need to look carefully at what is being proposed as we must have sufficient resources in place to have people in post to be able to use the full range of powers to full effect. More powers without staffing and other resourcing is not going to be effective and will not provide the reassurance and protection our citizens need.

I very much welcome moves to get the internet companies to block and take down content promoting terrorism. Every effort must be made for further action in this area. It is just not acceptable. Swift action must be taken by these companies to take this content down. In her response, will the Minister refer to the following matters? What will be the role of the Independent Reviewer of Terrorism Legislation before any new measures come before Parliament? Are the Government planning any review of the Prevent strategy? What reassurance is being given to the Muslim community and other faith communities? It has been reported that individuals involved in the Manchester and London Bridge terror attacks were reported to the authorities but were no longer thought to be an immediate threat. Can the Minister confirm that an urgent reassessment of any other individuals in this category is being done and that all intelligence that suggests any sort of activity, no matter who the perpetrators are, is constantly reviewed and assessed? We need to stand up to the terrorists wherever they come from—from Islamist terrorists to far-right extremists with their messages of death, destruction and hate. They are all murderers and vile preachers of hate.

Finally, I suggest to Members that if they have a spare moment they pop down to Borough Market. It is a wonderful part of the London Borough of Southwark and somewhere I have known for most of my life. I am a trustee of the United St Saviour’s Charity, and I declare an interest. It owns a number of the affected properties around Borough Market and has been helping businesses get back on their feet over the past few weeks. Borough Market is a wonderful place and well worth a visit.

[Lord Paddick (LD)]

My Lords, I, too, thank the Minister for repeating the Statement and express the condolences, thoughts and best wishes of those on these Benches to all those affected by these tragedies. I also express our thanks and admiration to the emergency services involved in each of these incidents, particularly the armed officers who had to take the difficult, split-second decision to shoot the suspected perpetrators of the London Bridge/Borough Market attack. Our thoughts should also be with those officers and their families.

I have four questions. Can the Minister confirm that central government funding for the police service is increasing in real terms? What account has been taken of the additional financial pressures on the police service, such as the apprenticeship levy, and the additional operational pressures, such as the public inquiry into covert policing and the post-event investigations into these terrorist incidents? Is it not time to restore community policing, an invaluable source of community intelligence, after a cut of 20,000 police officers and 24,000 police support staff since 2010? Does the Minister agree with the Commissioner of Police for the Metropolis that the Met is struggling because of a lack of resources? We welcome David Anderson’s role in reviewing the handling of recent terror attacks. We welcome the idea of a commission for countering extremism, but we need to understand what that means. We also welcome an independent, evidence-based review of Britain’s counterterrorism strategy, including an independent, evidence-based review of Prevent. Can the Minister give any more detail about the commission and can she confirm that the review will be independent and evidence-based?