Rogue Landlords Register

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Excerpts

Wednesday 26th May 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

We have taken a balanced approach whereby we have tried to ensure that we do not see the mass evictions the noble Lord refers to. Equally, it is important that we crack down on rogue landlords. We have invested close to £7 million to improve the enforcement powers of local authorities, because those who do overstep the mark need to feel the full force of the law, whether that is the criminal law or housing legislation.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I refer the House to my relevant interests as set out in the register. Does the noble Lord think that the whole concept of the rogue landlords database has so far been a failure? Notwithstanding his answer to that, what is he planning to do to make the intent behind the concept a reality? Can we have a bit more detail on the White Paper and future measures?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

I do not accept that it has been a failure, partly because of the time taken going through the process of charging and convicting individuals. As I pointed out in the previous answer, it is one of a number of measures that we introduced to tackle the issue of rogue landlords. Obviously, we are consulting on a number of wider measures, including increasing the scope and accessibility of this database as part of that White Paper. More will be announced later in the year.

Leasehold Reform (Ground Rent) Bill [HL]

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Excerpts

Monday 24th May 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I refer the House to my relevant interests as set out in the register, namely as a vice-president of the Local Government Association, a non-executive director of MHS Homes Ltd and chair of the Heart of Medway Housing Association.

The Minister will have heard the speeches of all noble Lords who have taken part in the debate today. I think it is fair to say that everybody welcomes the Bill as far as it goes. I entirely accept that progress is being made and it is welcome, but—there is always a “but”—the issue that noble Lords have mentioned is the pace of reform, which is slow. In fact, it is really, really slow, and it is regrettable. This Bill could do so much more than it is doing.

My noble friend Lord Berkeley asked whether this Bill is doing the easy bits. Sadly, it is doing exactly that. The Government have form here. On a lot of legislation, they like doing the easy bits and making announcements about what will come down the track, but in many cases we are still waiting for what is coming down the track. I am reminded of the Housing and Planning Act 2016—a dreadful piece of legislation. Thankfully, Theresa May got rid of most of it, but regarding the rogue landlord database, which the noble Baroness, Lady Grender, just mentioned, the Act was passed in 2016 and five years later we are still waiting for the legislation to make that publicly available. I hope that we get some progress and are not just kicking the can down the road.

Perhaps the Minister can give us some more detail about when we can expect the more substantial legislation dealing with the real issues, such as the 4.5 million people today who are struggling with unsatisfactory leases. Leaseholder problems are nothing new and neither is the call for the reform. However, the problems have got worse. The Bill’s major failure is that, if you have problems with your leasehold property today, there is nothing here to help you.

The noble Lord, Lord Hammond of Runnymede, made a very fair point about conveyancers and the advice that they gave to leaseholders. I hope that the Minister responds to the noble Lord’s points.

The noble Earl, Lord Lytton, raised the issue of the consultation flaws. I have raised issues about inadequate consultation many times. Again, I hope that the Minister responds to those questions.

The noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, in a most enjoyable speech, set out why the Government must act urgently. We got it all: the Romans, the Normans, the Doomsday Book, the Peasants’ Revolt, Wat Tyler—the only one missed out was Lord Mayor Walworth. However, although it was enjoyable, the noble Lord’s serious point was that reform is desperately needed and long overdue. This goes back so many years. I hope that the Minister takes that on board. We must ensure that this leasehold type of property ownership has had its day and that the Government are marking that, and that this is the start of the process to end that. If that is what we will hear from the Minister, I will be very pleased, because if you are a leaseholder, you can be trapped in very unfair terms and must go on waiting for that leasehold reform, which is unacceptable.

Many noble Lords have described the Bill as “timid”. The Bill is good as far as it goes, but it could do so much more. Why is it so timid and what is the time scale for a more substantial piece of legislation? When will we see it in this House? It would be good for all of us to know, because this Bill is a missed opportunity, and in that sense it is a failure. The noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie of Downpatrick, made these points.

My noble friend Lady Andrews pointed out the huge problems that people face when they buy a leasehold property and then see their ground rent double, as well as other onerous charges. We have heard several times of people being “ripped off”, which is totally unacceptable.

I will be pursuing several issues in Committee and on Report. I hope to persuade the Minister and the Government of the merits of my case, and I am sure that the Minister will want to do the same, but if not, I am happy to divide the House on Report regarding certain issues. Here are some of the issues that I will be interested in looking at. We will be exploring whether we can remove the ground rent from existing leaseholders and put into the Bill a requirement for the Government to begin that work and get a timetable for it to go forward.

There is also the issue of unfair terms and conditions beyond ground rents, which is not addressed anywhere in the Bill. I am talking about unfair terms and conditions such as transfer fees imposed by freeholders on the sale of a leasehold property, which are totally unfair and unjustified.

Another issue is leasehold forfeiture, which has been talked about already today. That is a process whereby somebody can lose their property for a small debt, which is totally unacceptable and needs to be dealt with. The concept is disproportionate in relation to the potential debts involved. The Bill could have been used to stop that practice and put in place a more proportionate system to address issues of debts owed, but it does not do that.

I am also not convinced that the penalties in place to deal with rogue freeholders who seek to illegally charge leaseholders a fee beyond the peppercorn go far enough. Is the maximum fee of £5,000 the right amount? Should there not be an extended sliding scale for repeat offenders?

One of the clauses refers to getting the fee back that has been charged to a leaseholder illegally. If the fee has to be paid back, that is good but I would like to see some interest and compensation for the leaseholder if it was charged to them illegally. I would also want to see larger-scale fees charged to companies that do that, because they probably need to be deterred. If their fee is only ever £5,000, they might well get away with it in some places and think, “Actually, this is worth taking the risk.” We need a much larger fee to deter people from behaving like that.

Another problem the Bill does not address is what people and companies will seek to do to get around this ban on ground rents. By that, I mean a whole new raft of additional fees, special provisions and other charges—generally, rip-off revenue streams which freeholders might seek to place on the leaseholders. These types of fees will be of no benefit to the consumer or leaseholder; it is unfair if they are just cash cows. What will the Minister do to stop this becoming a reality? Let us be clear: some of these organisations have lots of clever people. Their lawyers will sit down and say, “Right—this has been banned, but what can we do to get around it by doing something else?” What are the Government going to do about this? Otherwise, we will be here in a few months’ time saying, “That’s great, but what about these charges?”, and people would be no better off. The noble Lord, Lord Stunell, referred to this in his contribution.

The noble Baroness, Lady Wheatcroft, rightly highlighted the problem of service charges. I have spoken to many leaseholders over the past few months who have been asked to pay a really unfair level of service charge. I often wonder how much these charges reflect actual work done and how much they are a sort of management fee, where they do not get a lot for them. Again, we are not dealing with that and it is disappointing, as the Bill could have dealt with those things as well.

The noble Lord, Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth, highlighted the permission fees. Again, that is another example of leaseholders being ripped off and seen as cash cows.

The noble Lord, Lord Best, spoke about the risk of rogue property agents and others acting in an unscrupulous manner. Often when we legislate in this House, it is not to deal with the good people who play by the rules but to deal with the rogues—the people who just push their luck and pull strokes. How are we going to deal with that, when it is really important? It is not about good businesses but the rogues who will behave badly. The noble Lord, Lord Young of Cookham, mentioned those points in his contribution as well.

This has been an excellent debate with lots that we can generally agree on. There is also a lot to get our teeth into during our Committee and Report stages. I hope the Bill will be given three days, or maybe a bit longer. As we can see from this debate, lots of issues will need addressing. I hope that the Minister will have an open mind—I am sure he will—and want to engage with the House. I think we all want the same thing here; we know there is a problem and are trying to sort it out. It is just that we are a bit more frustrated and maybe want to get it done a bit quicker. We have raised serious points that need to be addressed in the Bill, even given its narrow provisions, so we ensure that when it becomes an Act it is a good one and does what the Government seek to do. With that, I look forward to the Minister’s response and our deliberations in the next stages.

Fire Safety: Leaseholder Bankruptcies

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Excerpts

Monday 24th May 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I point out that our approach prioritises action on the risks of unsafe cladding, which is what accelerates fire. The costs for remediating this, and the risk posed by it, are high. We are putting in unprecedented sums to cover those costs.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, when does the Minister think the Prime Minister will take action to honour the promise he made in the House of Commons, when he said:

“We are determined that no leaseholder should have to pay for the unaffordable costs of fixing … defects that they did not cause and are no fault of their own”?—[Official Report, Commons, 3/2/21; col. 945.]

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, the Government have now committed more than £5 billion to the remediation of unsafe cladding. That will ensure that remediating the most risky element of a building will be covered in its entirety for those in high-rises and a substantial part of it for those in buildings of medium height.

Social Housing

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Excerpts

Monday 24th May 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I do not accept that characterisation of our planning reforms. They look to simplify the developer contribution through a new infrastructure levy that I am sure will capture the land value uplift so that that can be put into social and affordable housing.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I refer the House to my relevant interests as set out in the register. Can the Minister explain why, when asked about social housing, he often refers to affordable housing? They are not the same thing. We need a greater percentage of government spend on social rented homes to address the chronic shortage of homes for people on low incomes. Many of the affordable homes he talks about are just not affordable for these people.

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I was very clear in my original reply that this programme will deliver approximately double the number of social rented homes, but there are also ways to provide subsidised housing that gives a discount on the market price, which is the definition of affordable rent.

Rent Arrears: Covid-19

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Excerpts

Thursday 20th May 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, we continue to review other examples of support, including that in Spain, as well as those in the devolved Administrations in the United Kingdom. We will consider what impact they might have, but we will continue with the policy we have about not encouraging further debt.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I refer the House to my interests as set out in the register. Right now, an estimated 353,000 private renters are in arrears. Rent arrears have doubled since the beginning of the Covid-19 pandemic. The Government promised that no renter would lose their home due to the pandemic. Is it not time for the Government to accept the need for a Covid rent debt fund to clear Covid arrears for the most financially destitute renters, who are at severe risk of homelessness? If not, with the ban on evictions that has been in place during lockdown being lifted next month, how will the Government stop evictions because of Covid rent debt?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, we are aware of the exhortations from many organisations, but we consider that the increase in rent arrears is not statistically significant between the two surveys. It went from 7% to 9%. We also recognise that we have provided a substantial package of support for renters during the pandemic, including legislative protections and unprecedented financial support.

Mobile Homes (Requirement for Manager of Site to be Fit and Proper Person) (England) (Amendment) Regulations 2021

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Excerpts

Wednesday 19th May 2021 Grand Committee

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I draw the Committee’s attention to the fact that I am a vice-president of the Local Government Association. I endorse the comments of my noble friend Lord Mann and look forward to the Minister’s responses to those points. Obviously, I supported the main order when we discussed it last September, and I am very happy to approve this one today.

My only question here concerns the error and how it was detected. How did the error happen? I assume that it was just a mistake. How was it detected, and what would the consequences have been if it had not been detected? It would be quite useful to find that out. In my 11 years in the House I have done lots of SIs and I do not recall ever doing one where we had to come back because we had got the name of the Act wrong. In this case, it does not seem to be too much of a problem, but potentially it could be very serious in other situations. With that, however, I am happy to approve it.

Tower Blocks: Cladding

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Excerpts

Wednesday 12th May 2021 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to a fire at a tower block in Poplar, London which left two people hospitalised and others injured, what plans they have to remove flammable cladding and ensure buildings are fire safe.

[The Minister of State, Home Office and Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government (Lord Greenhalgh) (Con)]

I would like to express my deepest sympathies to the residents affected by the fire at New Providence Wharf and pay tribute to the swift response by the London Fire Brigade. We are providing an unprecedented £5.1 billion to fund the remediation of unsafe cladding, with expert support for those who need it. New Providence Wharf itself has received £8 million.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I draw the attention of the House to my relevant interests as set out in the register.

I join the Minister in expressing my sympathy to the victims of the fire and expressing my thanks to the London Fire Brigade. The fire in the tower block in Poplar is another devastating reminder of the dangerous, stressful, worrying and wholly unacceptable situation that thousands of people find themselves in today. Leaseholders and tenants are the innocent victims in a scandal that the Prime Minister promised they would not be picking up the bill for. So why are the Prime Minister’s words and promises to the victims so far removed from the reality and actions of the Government? When does the Minister expect the Government to start delivering on the repeated pledges and promises that the Prime Minister has made?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I start by pointing out that on 95% of the buildings that were identified at the start of last year as having the same cladding as Grenfell Tower either the cladding has been removed or work has started to remove it. We have made great progress in the past year, with some 159 starts on site. The building safety fund is open and continues to approve a number of works that will ensure that other forms of unsafe cladding are removed.

Leaseholders and Property Management Companies

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Excerpts

Thursday 29th April 2021 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the effectiveness of the law in respect of the responsibilities of (1) leaseholders, and (2) property management companies, for the upkeep of communal areas in blocks of flats.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper and, in doing so, I want to say that I am so proud to be able to ask a Question on your last day, Lord Speaker. You have been an exceptional Lord Speaker; thank you so much.

[The Minister of State, Home Office and Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government (Lord Greenhalgh) (Con)]

The Government are committed to promoting fairness and transparency for homeowners and ensuring that leaseholders are protected from abuse and poor service. Following Law Commission reports on enfranchisement, right to manage and commonhold, the Government are taking forward a comprehensive programme of reform to end unfair practices in the leasehold market. We are also considering the recommendation from the independent working group on property agents, chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Best.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I refer the House to my relevant interests as set out in the register. Does the noble Lord accept that, in many cases, leaseholders are trapped, paying expensive fees to management companies for the care and upkeep of communal areas or the property that they live in, and that the provisions that enable fees to be challenged and management companies to be replaced are not fit for purpose and need to be radically updated to place real control and choice in the hands of the leaseholders?

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, we believe very strongly that any fees and charges should be justifiable, transparent and communicated effectively and that there should be a clear route to challenge or address things if they go wrong. That is why we commissioned the noble Lord, Lord Best, to do his report.

Fire Safety Bill

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Excerpts

Consideration of Commons amendments
Wednesday 28th April 2021 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Home Office and Ministry of Housing, Communities and Local Government (Lord Greenhalgh) (Con)]

My Lords, I express my thanks once again to everyone for their contributions to this important debate. The other place has now consistently voted against four different amendments on the issue of remediation. It is a vital issue but it is not for this Bill. This House has a choice about whether to prioritise finalising this important Bill or to delay it to the point where it falls.

The Government’s position on the Fire Safety Bill has not changed. I will repeat our key points. We are all in agreement about the importance of getting the Fire Safety Bill on the statute book. Residents have a right to be safe and feel safe in their homes. As I have said repeatedly, without this Bill the legal ambiguity around the fire safety order will continue.

Let me be clear about what is at stake if we do not resolve this: responsible persons for multi-occupied residential buildings will be able to continue to argue that it is lawful to ignore the fire safety risk of the structure, external walls and flat entrance doors; and fire and rescue services will lack the legal certainty to support enforcement decisions taken to keep people safe.

Failure to get this Bill to the statute book will lead to a delay in delivering the Grenfell recommendations. This is not a political point. This Bill must come first as it provides the legal certainty that I have just referred to. That certainty will enable the Secretary of State to make regulations with reduced risk of challenge to place duties on responsible persons in relation to the external wall structure and flat entrance doors, as the inquiry recommended.

It might help the House if I provided an example. The inquiry recommended a frequency of checks on fire safety doors, including flat entrance doors and communal fire doors. That cannot be done easily and in a way that is relatively free from legal risk if we have not identified that flat entrance doors are within the scope of the fire safety order. Equally, enforcing authorities would not be able to take appropriate action in this regard.

I thank your Lordships for recognising the substantial government support—to the tune of £5.1 billion—for leaseholders for remediation of unsafe cladding. Our five-point plan to bring an end to this cladding crisis helps provide certainty to the housing market. Noble Lords yesterday raised some points about uncertainty in the housing market and about the concerns of lenders and insurers. Our five-point plan addresses these.

More needs to be done to ensure that those responsible for fire safety defects should contribute to paying the costs of remediation. Industry must play its part and pay its way, and through our high-rise levy and developer tax we will make sure that developers with the broadest shoulders pay their contribution.

I agree that leaseholders need stronger avenues for redress and I made that clear yesterday. The building safety Bill will bring forward measures to do this, including making directors as well as companies liable for prosecution. We are bringing about the biggest changes in a generation to the system through the building safety Bill.

Finally, I reiterate the comments I made yesterday about forfeiture. It is a draconian measure that should be used only as a last resort. This measure should be considered as part of our wider programme on leasehold reform. I beg to move.

Motion A1 (as an amendment to Motion A)

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

Moved by

Leave out from “House” to end and insert “do insist on its Amendment 4L”

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I first draw the attention of the House to my relevant interests as a vice-president of the Local Government Association, a non-executive director of MHS Homes Ltd and chair of the Heart of Medway Housing Association.

It is disappointing and frankly outrageous that the Government are doing nothing and not delivering on their promises to the innocent victims of the cladding scandal. The noble Lord, Lord Greenhalgh, has gone through various points. He said that the other place had consistently voted against our amendments. That is a matter of much personal regret. Most Members of the governing party do not seem to recognise the plight of the innocent victims in this scandal.

What also irritates me about this issue is the point made by my noble friend Lord Adonis. The Government are now saying, “Well, of course, the Session finishes tomorrow and we need to get the Bill on the books”. The fact is that the Government, when the House of Commons rejected our amendments some weeks ago, left them sitting there and did not bring them here. They could have done so and I do not know whether that was deliberate or incompetent. The fact is that the amendments just sat there and were not brought here. For the Government then to claim, “We cannot go any further because of where we are” is irritating, to say the least.

It is fair to say that one could never accuse this Government of acting in haste when it comes to the Grenfell Tower inquiry recommendations. This is the first piece of legislation since the fire happened four years ago this summer. The Government have not acted in haste at all. The noble Lord, Lord Greenhalgh, is right: I want to see the people who built defective buildings and put cladding on improperly pay. I do not want to see the innocent victims pay. I also want the companies that provided insurance honour it. They were clearly happy to provide the insurance and they should pay up. I also want to see the professionals who signed the buildings off and who pay for their professional indemnity insurance, come forward, recognise and be held to account for what they have done.

It is even more outrageous when one considers what our Prime Minister—the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom—been saying for the past 18 months. I shall remind the House of one or two of his quotes—not all because there are loads of them. There are many examples and I suggest that noble Lords, particularly those on the Government Benches, would do well to reflect on some of those comments, read what he said, think about them and consider what they will do in terms of the how they are being whipped to vote. The PM said on 30 October 2019:

“I know that progress is not as fast I should like, but I am pleased to say that all such buildings owned by central and local government have now had their cladding removed, are undergoing work to remove it, or, at the very least, have such work scheduled. In the private sector, progress is slower, and too many building owners have not acted responsibly.”—[Official Report, Commons, 30/10/19; col. 379.]


He also said:

“My hon. Friend is absolutely right to draw attention to this injustice and what is happening with leaseholders at the moment. That is why we have put £1.6 billion into removing unsafe cladding. I do not want to see leaseholders being forced to pay for the remediation, and I can assure my hon. Friend that we are looking now urgently—before the expiry of the current arrangements—at what we can do to take them forward and support leaseholders, who are in a very unfair position.”—[Official Report, Commons, 9/12/20; col. 842.]


That was the Prime Minister on 9 December 2020. He subsequently said:

“We are determined that no leaseholder should have to pay for the unaffordable costs of fixing safety defects that they did not cause and are no fault of their own.”—[Official Report, Commons, 3/2/21; col. 945.]


Everyone would agree with that. That was the reply of the Prime Minister to the Leader of the Opposition on 3 February this year. That is just three quotes but there are many others that noble Lords should look at. Those are the quotes but we then come back to the reality of where we are, which is something different, is it not? It goes on and on.

What is shocking for me is that whenever the Government are provided with the means, through the Fire Safety Bill, to do what they promised—what the Prime Minister promised—they vote against it. We get excuse after excuse after excuse from the noble Lord, Lord Greenhalgh, or at the other end about why the Prime Minister cannot do this and why the Government cannot deliver on their promises.

--- Later in debate ---

This Government always have been and will continue to be committed to delivering the recommendations of the Grenfell Tower inquiry. I respectfully urge noble Lords to reject the noble Baroness’s amendment. I reiterate that if we do not move forward with the Fire Safety Bill and get it passed tonight, it will fall and the Government will not be able to deliver the inquiry’s recommendations in relation to external walls and flat entrance doors. Ultimately, this means that the safety of residents and leaseholders could be compromised. I beg to move.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate tonight. It is worth pointing out that for the second day in a row debating these issues not a single Member of the Government Benches has come forward to support the noble Lord, Lord Greenhalgh, or the Government’s position. As I said yesterday, I am not surprised because the position of the Government, frankly, is a disgrace and is totally outrageous.

The Government claim that we have not got this amendment right, it lacks clarity and we do not have the time. If we were going to accept that as a serious proposition, we would not have had this Bill just sitting there for weeks and weeks not being tabled by the Government. After it was rejected by the Commons it could have been brought here. They chose not to table it. They left it sitting there. I really do not think that point holds water.

Of course, the problem for the noble Lord, Lord Greenhalgh, is that the sums of money pledged—and I accept that they are considerable—do not deliver the Prime Minister’s pledges, or do his pledges count for nothing? I will leave that there. He makes a lot of promises and pledges. I hope they count for something or do they count for nothing?

If voting again for this amendment would change anything, I would divide the House, but I am also not prepared to mislead those affected that we can force the Government to change this Bill. Sadly, the Government are not listening and the House prorogues tomorrow.

This issue, however, will not go away. The Government will be forced to do the right thing by the leaseholders, by the campaigners, by the Cladiators and by Members of this House and the other place. They will be dragged kicking and screaming to do what the leader of their party, the Prime Minister of the UK, pledged to do. I quote the Prime Minister—I think that the House will hear this quote time and again, until the Government do what he promised. He said:

“We are determined that no leaseholder should have to pay for the unaffordable costs of fixing safety defects that they did not cause and are no fault of their own.”—[Official Report, Commons, 3/2/21; col. 945.]


That was the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom and leader of the Conservative Party, the right honourable Boris Johnson MP, in response to a question put to him by the Leader of the Opposition on 3 February. That statement was made after this Bill had been through both Houses and three weeks before the Government, in the other place, rejected our amendments for the first time. The PM’s Government voted against the PM’s pledge—his promise—at every opportunity. The position is, frankly, ridiculous; what complete and utter nonsense has come from the Government.

As I said, I will not test the opinion of the House on my Motion tonight. This issue, however, will not go away, and the Government will have to deliver on their pledges and promises. I beg leave to withdraw the Motion.

Motion A1 withdrawn.

Fire Safety Bill

Lord Kennedy of Southwark Excerpts

Consideration of Commons amendments
Tuesday 27th April 2021 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark]

At end insert “but do propose Amendment 4L in lieu—

4L: After Clause 2, insert the following new Clause—
“Legislative proposals relating to prohibition on passing remediation costs on to leaseholders and tenants
(1) The owner of a building may not pass the costs of any remedial work attributable to the provisions of this Act on to leaseholders or tenants of that building.
(2) Subsection (1) has effect only until a statutory scheme is in operation which ensures that leaseholders and tenants of dwellings do not have to pay for remedial work attributable to the provisions of this Act.
(3) Within 90 days of the passing of this Act, the Secretary of State must publish draft legislation to ensure that leaseholders and tenants of dwellings do not have to pay the costs of any remedial work attributable to the provisions of this Act, and must also publish a statement on a proposed timetable for the passage of the draft legislation.
(4) Within 120 days of the passing of this Act, the Secretary of State must publish a statement confirming whether the draft legislation mentioned in subsection (3) has progressed.””

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I join noble Lord in paying tribute to the fire and rescue services, and the bravery they have shown recently and every day. But these heroes—they are heroes—are FBU members. They have not always been shown the respect they deserve from many people, particularly the Prime Minister when he was Mayor of London. He did not always show the FBU members the respect they deserved, and these are the same people. I make that one point.

I draw the House’s attention to my relevant interest as a vice-president of the Local Government Association, a non-executive director of MHS Homes Ltd and chair of the Heart of Medway Housing Association. It is most disappointing that we are back here again, and I accept that it is very unusual for us to push this again, but I will test the opinion of the House.

My amendment is based on the amendment from the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of St Albans, and it would ensure that no costs are passed on to the leaseholders or tenants. That the subsection would remain in force until such time that we get the Government’s statutory scheme. Further, it would place a requirement on the Secretary of State to come back within 90 days to publish draft legislation to ensure that leaseholders and tenants do not have to pay, and to publish a timetable for the implementation of that legislation. Finally, we would also require a progress report from the Secretary of State within 120 days of the passing of this amendment.

Now, why are we back here again? It is because the Government have been quick to promise and slow to act. We are here because they are not listening to the innocent victims of the cladding scandal, who should be at the forefront of the levelling-up agenda, if it is anything but a slogan that the Government have no intention of delivering. These people are families whose homes are blighted. They need their Government to come to their aid but, instead, the Government made promises that they have spectacularly failed to deliver. That is no way for a Government to behave. As I said, I intend to divide the House when the time comes.

“We will do whatever it takes” is a statement that the Government regularly put about, whether from the Chancellor announcing new measures or the Culture Secretary regarding the European Super League. Sadly, it is never said by the Government when it comes to dealing with the innocent victims of the cladding scandal. Perhaps, in replying to the debate, the noble Lord, Lord Greenhalgh, the Minister for Fire Safety, can explain that failure to the House, because we have never heard from the Government what the plan is, which is part of the problem. If we are informed of a clear, well thought-out pathway and route map to help the victims we could make progress, but for some reason the Government will not do that. Perhaps the noble Lord can tell the House about this road map when he responds to the debate.

I want to see this Bill on the statute book, but I do not accept for one minute that this puts it at risk. We still have days before the end of the Session. I do not want to hold the Bill up. It is good in what it does, which is to implement the first recommendation of the Grenfell Tower inquiry—the first bit of legislation since the fire, now nearly four years ago. No one can accuse the Government of acting in haste. On a separate matter, we still have six families in temporary accommodation following the fire at Grenfell Tower.

It is vital that our dwellings are safe and that people can sleep safely at night, without fear. The Government have committed £5 billion—I accept that that is a significant amount of money—but the situation is far from satisfactory and it is in the Government’s gift to do something about it. Only the Government can do something about it, but they are not willing to at present. As the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of St Albans told us when we last debated this—I pay tribute to him for his leadership and for seeking a solution to this scandal—the result can be bankruptcies, enormous mental health strains and possibly worse. Part of the problem is that there have been no assurances to prevent the remediation costs being passed on to leaseholders until the Government’s scheme is operational. This is what my amendment seeks: to prevent the costs of this scandal being passed on to tenants and leaseholders, the innocent victims.

We have all seen in the media the heartbreaking reports of the crippling costs that leaseholders are having to bear, such as interim fire safety costs and high insurance premiums. Surely the developers that built these defective flats, the insurance companies that provided the guarantees but no longer want to honour their commitments and the professionals who signed off the buildings as safe should be paying through their professional indemnity insurance. Instead, innocent victims are left bearing the costs of this scandal, despite the promises made to them.

This leaves them with a dilemma: sell their lease and take on the debt resulting from negative equity, or stay in their leases and face huge debts in the form of remediation bills. They might possibly declare bankruptcy. Surely that is wrong. The leaseholders are playing by the rules and paying their taxes. They are buying a home and doing the right thing, but are not being supported. They had no indication that this was coming. This is a dreadful tragedy. In the absence of an adequate plan and scheme to deal with these issues properly and fairly, there is no other way forward. I hope that the House will support me. We need to find a solution to pay these costs. I beg to move.

[Baroness Pinnock (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I start by drawing the attention of the House to my interests, as recorded in the register, as a vice-president of the Local Government Association and a member of Kirklees Council.

On three separate occasions, this House has confirmed its view that the Government should urgently address the plight of leaseholders and tenants who will be significantly and adversely affected by the consequences of the Fire Safety Bill. The provisions in the Bill are not the issue; they are a welcome small step to address the failings exposed by the dreadful Grenfell tragedy. The Government and, no doubt, the Minister will state how important it is that this Bill is passed, as we heard the Minister say a few moments ago. Both omit to say that the Government have been tardy in regard to the passage of the Bill; the Report stage in this House took place in November 2019. If the Government had made the Bill a priority, we would not be here, in the final throes of this Session, seeking to find a just solution for those directly impacted by it.

--- Later in debate ---

This House has a choice. On the one hand, we face more dither and more delay, and the very real risk that the Fire Safety Bill will fall. On the other, we support this vital clarification of the fire safety order and a Bill that ensures that the Grenfell Tower recommendations are delivered and homes are made safer.

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate. I must say that I am disappointed by the response of the noble Lord, Lord Greenhalgh. I noted that not one speech from the Government Benches—other than the Minister’s—supported the Government’s position. If I were over there, I would not support the Government either, and so I understand why Members on the Government Benches are sitting very quietly. I do not wish to defend them, but I think they are being very sensible. Frankly, the Government’s position is indefensible, particularly when you look at the promises that they have made. That is part of the problem: the Government think that they can get away with making promises and that, because no one will think anything else of it, they can then mess about a bit. I am sorry, but this issue is not going away.

There is a disappointing lack of understanding of the plight of the innocent victims—I repeat “innocent” —of the cladding scandal. People are really in trouble here. We have heard it tonight and we have heard it before. They need their Government to help them. The right reverend Prelate the Bishop of St Albans highlighted another case—that of Claire, who works somewhere in the Palace of Westminster. She bought a 25% share in what was probably her first property, and she is now trapped. These are innocent victims.

Why have we not had a summit at No. 10 to sort this out? I asked that last time, but I did not get an answer. We were going to have a summit about the football problems, so why not about this? If the right reverend Prelate is right, we need a meeting of COBRA to talk about the financial crisis that is on its way on the back of this. But no, there has been nothing from the Government. Why are the Government not standing up for innocent victims? Why can they not set out a route map—a pathway to say how the levelling-up agenda would help these first-time buyers, these innocent victims? We hear nothing.

I want to ask the Government to think again. There is no risk to the Bill. This is the House of Lords doing its job—asking the other place, on a matter of the utmost importance, to think again. That is really important. If the Government would spend a bit more time addressing the seriousness of the issue, we could move forward. My noble friend Lord Adonis made the point that the Government had these amendments weeks ago. They brought the Trade Bill back, but this Bill just sat there. It now turns up this week and they have said that we have to be careful because we are going to run out of time. They sat there for weeks, doing nothing with it, when they could have brought it back here.

These may not be the cleverest amendments. I am not a lawyer or a parliamentary draftsperson, nor are other noble Lords. But the Government know what we are trying to achieve. There are a lot of really clever people working for the Government; they could sort it out if they wanted to. I wish to test the opinion of the House.