Lord Kennedy of Southwark
Main Page: Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Labour - Life peer)
Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab)
My Lords, I refer noble Lords to my declared interests, and also declare that I am an elected councillor in the London Borough of Lewisham. I see the Minister’s point—that the amendments appear, on the face of it, to be minor and technical. But my noble friend Lord Campbell-Savours has raised an issue, and I hope that we get a response from the Minister. None of us would want to agree something today that had unintended consequences at a later date.
Viscount Younger of Leckie
My Lords, I hope I can provide some clarity. It is true that the amendments are minor and technical, but let me try to explain. The purpose of the amendment is to make it explicit in the legislation that Clause 54 does not apply to individuals engaged in property management work under a contract of employment. The noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, may remember that on Report we made a number of amendments to the housing administration section of the Bill, and unfortunately, during this process the definition of housing administration objectives became inaccurate. This amendment corrects the definition.
To give a little more detail, it may help the noble Lords, Lord Kennedy and Lord Campbell-Savours, if I say that I believe that officers are defined as directors or executive members of a company. Given that this is technical, it would be wise if I gave a fuller answer than the one I am giving at the Dispatch Box now, so I will write to all noble Lords with a description.
Lord Campbell-Savours
The amendment says:
“But a person is not a property manager for the purposes of this Part if the person engages in English property management work in the course of that person’s employment under a contract of employment”.
A director of a company involved could have taken the decision that led to the banning but, as far as I can see, would not be responsible under this clause. Is that the intention, or am I simply misunderstanding what the Bill says? I think we should have a bit more information while the Bill is in this form, on Third Reading, because this is our final opportunity.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark
Yes, it is. I see the point that the Minister is making about wanting to write to us, but I am also conscious that this is Third Reading. Other than maybe a bit of ping-pong, these are almost the last throes of the Bill. If my noble friend Lord Campbell-Savours is right, the Government will unintentionally have created a bit of a pickle for themselves. Before we move on, we need more than the Minister saying that we will get a letter in the post.
Lord True (Con)
My Lords, this may well be Third Reading, but the amendment will go to the other place as a Lords amendment, so it is perfectly possible, as my noble friend has courteously offered, for the matter to be clarified and, if there is a need for further technical clarification, that could be made in the other place.
Lord Horam (Con)
Perhaps I may add a third Conservative variant to the two that we have already had. The noble Lord, Lord Shipley, absolutely put his finger on the issue that we must not forget in all of this, which is social housing for rent. This is the fundamental point, among all the others, on which we have to focus in these amendments.
To illuminate that, perhaps I may give the House some facts, as opposed to words where one is dancing on the head of a pin, as my noble friend Lord Porter said. The Government’s own figures for housebuilding in the last financial year show that in 2014-15 in the UK we built 152,440 houses. That is quite a big figure and it goes some way towards the 200,000 which the Government want to reach, so that is good. The bad side is that, of that number, only 2,510 were council houses—an appalling figure in the light of the history of council housing in this country—and, of those, only 1,360 were in England.
Not only that but—this is the whole point of the debate—some of those houses are being sold off under the enhanced right-to-buy provisions that are already in place. As a former London MP, I went round London looking at the houses sold in each London borough and calculated that last year 3,805 council houses were sold off. So we are losing council houses, which are predominantly social houses for rent, in London and no doubt in other places in the country.
The National Audit Office also looked at whether the Government are replacing lost council housing. The Government maintain that they are but unfortunately the NAO questioned their statistical methods and made the point that the Government have to increase social housing for rent by a factor of five to replace that which is currently being lost under the right to buy. Therefore, it seems to me that the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Kerslake, has considerable merit because it tries to get an element of replacing like for like into the broad mix.
I congratulate the Government on giving a huge boost to housing in this country. Their plans are admirable, and my noble friend Lady Williams has been noticeably listening. But I do think that the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Kerslake, has greater merit. Even if, in these last few hours, the amendment that he has tabled is not quite right and is considered too restrictive in some respects, as my noble friend Lord Lansley said, surely in the toing and froing between the two Chambers a sensible amendment that deals with this point, which has been discussed at length, can be put down to satisfy all sides of the House.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark
My Lords, I generally welcome the amendments in this group. There has been a good debate but I am disappointed that the Government, having heard today’s debate and those during the course of the Bill, are not able to accept the amendments in the names of the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, and the noble Lord, Lord Kerslake.
However, Amendment 2, in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Williams of Trafford, is very welcome. It puts on the face of the Bill that one new affordable home will be provided for each old dwelling that is sold. That is very good and I thank the noble Baroness for it very much.
We on these Benches fully support the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Kerslake. It would put in the Bill a provision whereby, if a local authority can demonstrate to the satisfaction of the Secretary of State that it needs to provide new social housing locally, it can retain the funds to do that. I do not disagree with the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, about the words “can demonstrate”. I think it is for the Secretary of State to make the decision; it is not a matter for the local authority. The amendment certainly gives the Government the power to look at that and, if they are not satisfied, they will not go ahead. So I do not see why the amendment cannot be accepted.
It is disappointing that the discussions over the last few days have not been fruitful. I agree very much with the comments of the noble Lords, Lord Porter and Lord Horam, and I hope that, by supporting this amendment, we can impress upon the Government how strong the feeling is in this House. As the noble Lord, Lord Horam, said, perhaps we can find an amendment during ping-pong next week that all sides can agree on.
Lord Beecham
My noble friend is anticipating the result, I hope correctly. This amendment deals with one aspect of the pay-to-stay provisions which have been very controversial. I shall reiterate briefly that the rationale for the provisions is based on a myth; namely, that council housing in particular is subsidised and therefore people with what is regarded as a high income are being subsidised by the taxpayer. In fact, of course, the housing revenue accounts of councils are not subsidised. Councils are obliged to balance the books and do so through the rent system. Paradoxically, however, what we may find under the pay-to-stay provisions is that the so-called high-income residents will be subsidising the taxpayer, rather than the other way round, because the money raised from the increase to be applied will go to the Treasury.
In a useful discussion with the Secretary of State and the Minister, I suggested that at the very least there should be some indexation of the income levels to reflect the increases which one anticipates will continue to take place in the consumer prices index. The amendment seeks to provide that this could take place on the basis of a triennial review to update the levels by the rise, if there is one, in CPI. That seems reasonable and the Secretary of State thought so too. I had hoped that the Government might come forward with an amendment, but they have not done so. I assume, however, that their view has not changed and I trust that the noble Baroness will—
Lord Kennedy of Southwark
My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for her comments and for moving this amendment. As other noble Lords have said, this has come a long way and we welcome that, but in some ways it has not gone far enough. I thank the Government and noble Baroness for what she has proposed today. It would be helpful when the noble Baroness responds if she can repeat her remarks about disabled people and elderly people. I think I was distracted and did not quite hear what she said.
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park
I said that this would enable councils to consider appropriate provision for households where there is someone with a disability or a long-term illness, older people and those who provide long-term care for a person in this situation.
I barely dare say to the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, that I understand the equality impact assessment will be available in due course. I hope that she does not have to return and quote the promise again when we come back to this. We will reflect on her comments. As I say, I am sorry—that is all I can say at this stage.
Baroness Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville
My Lords, I also thank the Minister for her enormous patience during the passage of this labyrinthine and complicated Bill. The Minister and her colleagues on the Government Front Bench have demonstrated great stamina on what has been a bit of a marathon. I and my colleagues are grateful to her for the many briefings that she has organised to assist us in getting to grips with the Bill and for attempting to meet us half way on what are major issues for us. I thank also the Labour Front Bench—the noble Lords, Lord Kennedy and Lord Beecham—and on the Cross Bench the noble Lords, Lord Best, Lord Kerslake and Lord Cameron, for their very positive approach towards co-operating with us on the Liberal Democrat Benches to ensure that proper in-depth scrutiny took place throughout the passage of the Bill.
Finally, but by no means least, I thank my colleagues on the Benches beside and behind me for their unfailing support over two months: my noble friends Lord Shipley, Lord Foster, Lord Stoneham, Lord Tope, Lord Palmer of Childs Hill, Lord Taylor of Goss Moor, Lord Teverson, Lord Greaves, Lady Parminter, Lady Grender and Lady Doocey, and in particular my noble friend Lady Maddock, who has sat with me for many hours into the late evenings. Without their in-depth involvement in taking on various sections of the Bill, my role would have been extremely arduous; I am grateful to them for sharing and lifting the burden.
Lord Kennedy of Southwark
My Lords, as we come to the end of the Bill, I will not start a debate on the regulations, which we have discussed many times.
I have some concluding remarks. I start by thanking the Bill team, and all the officials who have worked on the Bill. They have been willing to engage with us at all times, and we are grateful for that. I pay tribute also to Ian Parker from the opposition office for all his work on the Bill, and especially to Molly Critchley from the opposition office, who has helped, directed and guided me and my noble friend Lord Beecham and other noble Lords on the Opposition Benches. She has proved knowledgeable, technically skilled and valuable to our debates as we hold the Government to account on this Bill.
I thank, too, noble Lords from all sides of the House, certainly the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, and the noble Lords, Lord Best, Lord Kerslake and Lord Cameron, and many noble Lords on the Government Benches as well, including the noble Lords, Lord Porter, Lord True and Lord Lansley. I have enjoyed our debates. I think that we have all helped to improve the Bill. It is fair to say that at many times local government has spoken with one voice. It is also clear from the contributions of noble Lords that there is great experience here and that we all care deeply about housing. We may not often agree what needs to be done, but that is another matter. We are all concerned about the housing crisis and that it is dealt with.
I pay tribute also to the noble Viscount, Lord Younger of Leckie, and the noble Baroness, Lady Evans of Bowes Park. They engaged willingly with the House and dealt with all noble Lords in a courteous manner.
My penultimate remarks concern the noble Baroness, Lady Williams of Trafford. I have sometimes wondered what she had done to be given such a controversial Bill—an ill-prepared Bill—and to have the poise to deal with all sorts of points from around the House, often on her own. She has done so with great skill and courtesy; I have appreciated that very much, as has the whole House.
Although the Bill is in better shape than when it arrived in your Lordships’ House, it will not particularly help to tackle the housing crisis. In some respects it may actually make things worse. We may get back to the Bill next week in ping-pong fashion but I hope we do not—I hope that the Government accept all the amendments from your Lordships’ House. We shall wait and see about that. What is certain, however, is that we have not seen the last of those regulations. We have not seen them at all yet, but I can guarantee that we will have a return performance by the same group of noble Lords in the autumn. We will discuss the regulations and how they should have been here now, and maybe one or two Motions from the Opposition. I do not know what we will see, but I thank everybody most sincerely.
Baroness Gardner of Parkes
It is quite unusual for anyone to say anything from this side at this stage, but I support the remark about the regulations and would like to say how good the noble Baroness, Lady Williams, and her team have been. It has been a superhuman task. The Bill came to us in a very difficult form and I have never seen a Minister do better than the Minister has done on this Bill.