Sharia Law: Marriages

Debate between Lord Keen of Elie and Lord Elton

Wednesday 23rd October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Keen of Elie]

My Lords, we do not recognise sharia courts and we do not recognise sharia law. We recognise the law of England and Wales, and it is that to which we must look for protection of rights and to which individuals must have recourse. Of course, I understand the social inhibitions that exist in parts of the Muslim community in seeking to vindicate their rights. That is why, for example, we introduced anonymity in the context of forced marriage.

[Lord Elton (Con)]

My Lords, the Government may not recognise the courts but a great many people in this country do, of whom a large proportion cannot speak, read or understand the English language. Do the Government realise that there is a huge barrier around this problem, which needs to be solved quickly to avoid terrible injustice?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

My Lords, I entirely concur with the observations of my noble friend. There is a very real need for education and information in this area. If we can achieve that, we can take strides to deal with this inequality and injustice, which we readily recognise, but which is more difficult to cure than to identify.

Data Protection Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Keen of Elie and Lord Elton

Report: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 13th December 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Elton (Con)]

The noble Lord, Lord Low, in an intervention on the noble Lord, Lord McNally, referred to a provision, the name of which I do not recall. They both agreed that that, if implemented by the Government, would resolve the problem. Can the Minister say what the position is on that?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

It would not necessarily resolve any problem. As noble Lords may be aware, we have consulted on the question of Section 40 and the second part of the Leveson inquiry and there will in due course be a report upon that consultation. I notice that the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, has assisted my lip-reading by saying “soon”. He may be aware that a letter was recently sent by the Secretary of State to the Committee with regard to the timing of that report. If not, I can bring that news to him. Sir Brian Leveson himself has indicated that he would like the opportunity to consider the responses to the consultation and that will take a little time—of course, that has to be accommodated.

Prisons

Debate between Lord Keen of Elie and Lord Elton

Thursday 20th October 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Keen of Elie]

The Secretary of State has already announced a £1.3 billion programme for improving and increasing the prison estate.

[Lord Elton (Con)]

As a former Minister for Prisons, I recognise the difficulty that the Government are in when something like this is proposed just as a new and expensive programme is launched. However, will my noble and learned friend bear in mind that an inquiry would offer two specific advantages? One would be that he and the Secretary of State might learn a good deal that they did not know, which would be valuable to them in managing their jobs. The second is that the result is likely to give them extra ammunition for dealing with the difficulty of getting money out of the Treasury.

[Lord Keen of Elie]

As I indicated earlier, there are imminent proposals for a prison safety and reform White Paper in which these matters will be addressed. In addition, it will be recalled that we had the recommendations of the Harris review; 62 have been accepted and a further 12 are under consideration.

Historical Child Sex Abuse

Debate between Lord Keen of Elie and Lord Elton

Thursday 30th June 2016 Lords Chamber

[The Advocate-General for Scotland (Lord Keen of Elie) (Con)]

My Lords, I, too, am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, for initiating this important debate and to all noble Lords for their contributions. It has been a wide-ranging discussion.

I will start by acknowledging that the issues raised by this debate are both complex and sensitive. In any situation where reputations may be at risk, perhaps unfairly, it is no surprise that there is passionate engagement in the rights and wrongs of every case. Indeed, it is right that there is debate on such issues. I am sure that we all agree that allegations of child sexual abuse, whether recent or in the past, are exceptionally serious matters. It is of course for the police to investigate such allegations. The Government have been absolutely clear that where an allegation of child sexual abuse has been made, it should be reported to the police, so that it can be thoroughly investigated and the facts of the case established. The police are guided in their investigations by the authorised professional practice issued by the College of Policing, referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, a few moments ago. The creation of the College of Policing has been an important pillar in our programme of police reform. The college is independent from government and its role is clear: setting high professional standards, sharing what works best, acting as the national voice of policing, and ensuring police training and ethics of the highest possible quality.

The college produces authorised professional practice guidance to the police on a wide range of policing issues. There is authorised guidance on the investigation of complex cases, which include the investigation of child sexual abuse. Separate guidance exists on managing relationships with the media and a revised version of this is currently out for consultation until 8 July this year. The new version will include guidance on when the police can provide details of a suspect ahead of any charges being brought and, as many of your Lordships have noted during this debate, that is a critical issue, of course.

The college has the power to place this practice guidance on a statutory footing, should it choose to do so. It has power—subject to the Home Secretary’s agreement—to recommend that regulations are made which will apply to all members of police forces. Stronger still, it has powers to make codes of practice, which chief constables must have regard to in the exercise of their functions. A code of practice is a statutory document and, should a chief constable not comply with such a code, they would be open to challenge. As I said, the decision to seek any statutory provision would be a matter for the college itself, which is independent of government.

Because it is the police who are the proper authority to investigate such allegations, the Government have no plans to extend or issue statutory guidance on investigating child sexual abuse more widely to other public bodies or institutions. As noble Lords of course will be aware, we have seen an increase in the reporting of recent and non-recent allegations of child sexual abuse connected to institutions and organisations. It is absolutely right and proper that these institutions should look into the circumstances of any such allegations. They should review their safeguarding responsibilities and make any necessary changes, whether that be in additional security, ensuring effective identification of risk to children and young people or more general safeguarding measures.

Institutions might need to investigate claims as the result of civil proceedings being brought against them. How they do this is essentially a matter for each organisation or institution on a case-by-case basis. Each body will have its own circumstances and procedures, both now and in the past, by which it must be guided. I do not believe that central prescription in the form of statutory guidance would assist them in undertaking this important duty. Indeed, imposing a unilateral process on so many disparate organisations may lead to less transparency and fairness rather than more.

It would not be appropriate for me to comment specifically on the particular cases highlighted during this debate, but I understand the concerns of my noble friend and others in this place about the process of these investigations. As noble Lords will now be aware, the Church of England announced on 28 June that an independent person will be appointed to review the processes used in the Bishop Bell case. However, my noble friend Lord Lexden will be aware that this was a civil, rather than a criminal, matter. It was entirely open for the complainant in that case to pursue a civil claim. Once that claim was issued, it was for the Church of England to consider the facts of the case and to decide whether to settle or to go to trial, and for the claimant to decide whether to agree to a proposed settlement. The parties to any civil dispute are entitled to reach a private settlement. They do not need to initiate any legal proceedings to do so and settlement of a dispute out of court is common. Of course, litigation should be a remedy of last resort. The role of the state in this context is to provide the court system to determine disputes that cannot otherwise be resolved.

I turn to some additional comments made by noble Lords during the debate. If my responses are short, it is not because I consider their contributions to be slight. The noble Lord, Lord Dear, brings a wealth of policing experience to his observations on operational matters, and I would not seek to comment on those matters in this context. The noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Carey of Clifton, suggested that civil action should never be used but, with respect, those who claim to have been the victim of a wrong must in a free society have access to courts of justice that can resolve the issue of that wrong.

My noble friend Lord Cormack referred to the need for more extensive and direct apologies. I aspire to a situation in which there is no requirement for apologies. The noble Lord, Lord Armstrong of Ilminster, spoke of the fact that, as witnesses are interviewed during the course of an inquiry, knowledge of an investigation will find its way to the media. That is, of course, the case. There are differing difficulties, depending on whether the person accused is still alive or is dead. If the person is still alive, they at least have the resort to the law of defamation in circumstances when a false accusation is made and repeated in the media. However, when a person is dead, they have no such opportunity.

The noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, pointed out that, particularly in the case of historic allegations, it is necessary for the police and the Crown Prosecution Service to proceed with particular care. Of course, its job is not to seek conviction but to seek the truth. Careful and rigorous investigation is always required, and I would not comment further on such matters.

The noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, alluded to the difficulties in the past of dealing with the evidence of young children when accusations of this kind were made. In a way, it is because we have improved our ability to deal with child evidence that we have unleashed this tidal wave of historic cases. It is only now that we appear to be able to cope properly with the evidence of people speaking to events that happened many years ago. One hopes that the numbers will dissipate as we engage with the historic cases that we have. The noble and learned Lord referred to the second part of the Pigot report. In light of the trial that has gone on in four of our courts over the last few years, we are evaluating the results of the pilot with a view to rolling that out nationally. The evaluation report is expected to be published soon; I acknowledge to the noble and learned Lord that it has perhaps been a little time in coming.

The noble Lord, Lord Paddick, suggested that we must always believe victims. I would perhaps put that in a slightly different way. We must always take allegations seriously, but there is always the danger that the accused will become a victim. We must bear that in mind as well, in this context.

Finally, the second part of Leveson was raised by the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe. I observe that that was pressed by the Opposition to a vote in the House of Commons during the passage of the Policing and Crime Bill on 13 June, and I reiterate what was said at that time. The Government will consider the way forward following the conclusion of criminal proceedings connected to part 1 of the Leveson inquiry.

[Lord Elton (Con)]

I apologise for intervening at this stage. I have become very rusty since I took the PACE Bill through this House many years ago, but my noble friend said that the code of practice for chief constables, issued from within the police force, had a statutory power. Does that not mean that it is therefore subject to consideration by Parliament under the provisions for other statutory instruments?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

I endeavoured to say that the codes of practice emanate from the College of Policing, and it would be open to the College of Policing to seek to put them on a statutory footing. They are independent of government, and it would be for the college to take that step. I am obliged to the noble Lord, Lord Dear, for nodding in agreement.

Refugees: Unaccompanied Children

Debate between Lord Keen of Elie and Lord Elton

Tuesday 10th May 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Keen of Elie]

The French authorities are taking steps to improve the conditions in Calais, as noble Lords will be aware. As regards the precise number of 157, I cannot comment—but I can say that the Government have made provision in Calais to ensure that those unaccompanied children who have direct relatives in the United Kingdom follow the appropriate path, which is to register with the French authorities and proceed by way of the Dublin regulation.

[Lord Elton (Con)]

My Lords, will the Government take note that it is no good getting these children here two days before term starts and pitching them into a strange school? They must have time to settle into a family or a home before they undertake that very stressful process.

[Lord Keen of Elie]

It is necessary also to have regard to the capability of local authorities to receive these children. Until there are suitable foster places available for them and until there are suitable schools available for them, it would not be appropriate simply to bring them here.

Young Asylum Seekers: Deportation

Debate between Lord Keen of Elie and Lord Elton

Monday 9th May 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Keen of Elie]

Where an unaccompanied minor makes an application for leave to remain, they will be granted leave for at least 13 months or until they reach the age of 17 and a half. An assessment will then be made as to whether or not it would be reasonable to return them. Whether that involves a positive mental health check I cannot say, but I would be happy to write to the noble Baroness on that point.

[Lord Elton (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend assured the House that nobody would be returned unless the Home Office was assured that there were appropriate arrangements for reception. Can he please tell us the criteria by which the Home Office defines what is appropriate?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

The Home Office gathers evidence with regard to all potential countries of return from diverse sources before arriving at a conclusion as to whether the available evidence indicates that a person can be returned without risk of persecution or serious harm.

Immigration Bill

Debate between Lord Keen of Elie and Lord Elton

Monday 21st March 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Keen of Elie]

I believe that we are already doing all of that. This was addressed by my noble friend Lord Bates earlier when he spoke of the steps that we are taking regarding diplomatic efforts to try to secure peace in the Middle East. He spoke of the Government delivering a robust and comprehensive strategy to defeat Daesh in Syria and Iraq as a member of the global coalition of 66 countries. He spoke of the fact that there was effectively a cessation of hostilities on 27 February that we will build upon and hope to develop. He spoke of the fact that we have pledged over £2.3 billion, our largest ever response to a single humanitarian crisis, which is delivering vital assistance to refugees in neighbouring countries on the ground right now. We are also working through the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees with three schemes—the Gateway Protection Programme, the Mandate Refugee Programme and the Syrian resettlement scheme—in order to reach out to the most vulnerable people at risk, such as women and children. All that is being done.

We have to be realistic about what we can and cannot achieve. What we cannot achieve is a policy whereby 4.8 million or more people are invited to make an application at a local level for a visa to bring them to the UK. We know that we could not cope with the consequences of such a policy, and we know the potential disaster that could follow from attempting to impose one. We know that at the end of the day we would be expressing hope that could not be delivered. We would be expressing hope that these people might be helped when in reality we knew that their prospects would actually be dashed to pieces on the rocks of reality. We could never cope with such an immigration policy. I say to your Lordships in conclusion—

[Lord Elton]

My Lords, before my noble and learned friend sits down, he has heard considerable argument in favour of the Government using the opportunity pointed out by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, to bring before the Security Council a proposal that this be recognised as genocide. Can he tell us what he is proposing to do about that?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

I am obliged to the noble Lord. Respectfully, it appears to me that the proper course of action in those circumstances, where we are putting to one side an amendment that even my noble friend Lord Forsyth would appear impliedly to accept is not workable, the appropriate way forward would be to consider a Motion of this House, directed to Her Majesty’s Government as to how they should address or not address the issues that pertain here with regard to whether there has been genocide. Noble Lords have heard already what the present government policy is. The Government believe that recognition of genocide should be a matter for international courts and that it should be a legal rather than a political determination. That remains the position.