Data Protection and Digital Information Bill

Debate between Lord Kamall and Baroness Harding of Winscombe

Committee stage
Wednesday 27th March 2024 Grand Committee

[Baroness Harding of Winscombe (Con)]

My Lords, as is so often the case on these issues, it is daunting to follow the noble Baroness as she has addressed the issues so comprehensively. I speak in support of Amendment 57, to which I have added my name, and register my support for my noble friend Lord Holmes’s Amendment 59A, but I will begin by talking about the Clause 14 stand part notice.

Unfortunately, I was not able to stay for the end of our previous Committee session so I missed the last group on automated decision-making; I apologise if I cover ground that the Committee has already covered. It is important to start by saying clearly that I am in favour of automated decision-making and the benefits that it will bring to society in the round. I see from all the nodding heads that we are all in the same place—interestingly, my Whip is shaking his head. We are trying to make sure that automated decision-making is a force for good and to recognise that anything involving human beings—even automated decision-making does, because human beings create it—has the potential for harm as well. Creating the right guard-rails is really important.

Like the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, until I understood the Bill a bit better, I mistakenly thought that the Government’s position was not to regulate AI. But that is exactly what we are doing in the Bill, in the sense that we are loosening regulation and the ability to make use of automated decision-making. While that may be the right answer, I do not think we have thought about it in enough depth or scrutinised it in enough detail. There are so few of us here; I do not think we quite realise the scale of the impact of this Bill and this clause.

I too feel that the clause should be removed from the Bill—not because it might not ultimately be the right answer but because this is something that society needs to debate fully and comprehensively, rather than it sneaking into a Bill that not enough people, either in this House or the other place, have really scrutinised.

I assume I am going to lose that argument, so I will briefly talk about Amendment 57. Even if the Government remain firm that there is “nothing to see here” in Clause 14, we know that automated decision-making can do irreparable harm to children. Any of us who has worked on child internet safety—most of us have worked on it for at least a decade—regret that we failed to get in greater protections earlier. We know of the harm done to children because there have not been the right guard-rails in the digital world. We must have debated together for hours and hours why the harms in the algorithms of social media were not expressly set out in the Online Safety Act. This is the same debate.

It is really clear to me that it should not be possible to amend the use of automated decision-making to in any way reduce protections for children. Those protections have been hard fought and ensure a higher bar for children’s data. This is a classic example of where the Bill reduces that, unless we are absolutely explicit. If we are unable to persuade the Government to remove Clause 14, it is essential that the Bill is explicit that the Secretary of State does not have the power to reduce data protection for children.

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

My Lords, I speak in favour of the clause stand part notice in my name and that of the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

My Lords, I apologise for not being here on Monday, when I wanted to speak about automated decision-making. I was not sure which group to speak on today; I am thankful that my noble friend Lord Harlech intervened to ensure that I spoke on this group and made my choice much easier.

I want to speak on Amendments 74 to 77 because transparency is essential. However, one of the challenges about transparency is to ensure you understand what you are reading. I will give noble Lords a quick example: when I was in the Department of Health and Social Care, we had a scheme called the voluntary pricing mechanism for medicines. Companies would ask whether that could be changed and there could be a different relationship because they felt that they were not getting enough value from it. I said to the responsible person in the department, “I did engineering and maths, so can you send me a copy of algorithm?” He sent it to me, and it was 100 pages long. I said, “Does anyone understand this algorithm?”, and he said, “Oh yes, the analysts do”. I was about to get a meeting, but then I was moved to another department. That shows that even if we ask for transparency, we have to make sure that we understand what we are being given. As the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, has worded this, we have to make sure that we understand the functionality and what it does at a high enough level.

My noble friend Lady Harding often illustrates her points well with short stories. I am going to do that briefly with two very short stories. I promise to keep well within the time limit.

A few years ago, I was on my way to a fly to Strasbourg because I was a Member of the European Parliament. My train got stuck, and I missed my flight. My staff booked me a new ticket and sent me the boarding pass. I got to the airport, which was fantastic, and got through the gate and was waiting for my flight in a waiting area. They called to start boarding and, when I went to go on, they scanned my pass again and I was denied boarding. I asked why I was denied, having been let into the gate area in the first place, but no one could explain why. To cut a long story short, over two hours, four or five people from that company gaslighted me. Eventually, when I got back to the check-in desk, which the technology was supposed to avoid in the first place, it was explained that they had sent me an email the day before. In fact, they had not sent me an email the day before, which they admitted the day after, but no one ever explained why I was not allowed on that flight.

Imagine that in the public sector. I can accept it, although it was awful behaviour by that company, but imagine that happening for a critical operation that had been automated to cut down on paperwork. Imagine turning up for your operation when you are supposed to scan your barcode to be let into the operating theatre. What happens if there is no accountability or transparency in that case? This is why the amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, are essential.

Here is another quick story. A few years ago, someone asked me whether I was going to apply for one of these new fintech banks. I submitted the application and the bank said that it would get back to me within 48 hours. It did not. Two weeks later, I got a message on the app saying that I had been rejected, that I would not be given an account and that “by law, we do not have to explain why”.

Can you imagine that same technology being used in the public sector, with a WYSIWYG on the fantastic NHS app that we have now? Imagine booking an appointment then suddenly getting a message back saying, “Your appointment has been denied but we do not have to explain why”. These Amendments 74 to 78 must be given due consideration by the Government because it is absolutely essential that citizens have full transparency on decisions made through automated decision-making. We should not allow the sort of technology that was used by easyJet and Monzo in this case to permeate the public sector. We need more transparency—it is absolutely essential—which is why I support the amendments in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones.

[Baroness Harding of Winscombe (Con)]

My Lords, I associate myself with the comments that my noble friend Lord Kamall just made. I have nothing to add on those amendments, as he eloquently set out why they are so important.

In the spirit of transparency, my intervention enables me to point out, were there any doubt, who I am as opposed to the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, who was not here earlier but who I was mistaken for. Obviously, we are not graced with the presence of my noble friend Lord Maude, but I am sure that we all know what he looks like as well.

I will speak to two amendments. The first is Amendment 144, to which I have added my name. As usual, the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, has said almost everything that can be said on this but I want to amplify two things. I have yet to meet a politician who does not get excited about the two-letter acronym that is AI. The favoured statement is that it is as big a change in the world as the discovery of electricity or the invention of the wheel. If it is that big—pretty much everyone in the world who has looked at it probably thinks it is—we need properly to think about the pluses and the minuses of the applications of AI for children.

The noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, set out really clearly why children are different. I do not want to repeat that, but children are different and need different protections; this has been established in the physical world for a very long time. With this new technology that is so much bigger than the advent of electricity and the creation of the first automated factories, it is self-evident that we need to set out how to protect children in that world. The question then is: do we need a separate code of practice on children and AI? Or, as the noble Baroness set out, is this an opportunity for my noble friend the Minister to confirm that we should write into this Bill, with clarity, an updated age-appropriate design code that recognises the existence of AI and all that it could bring? I am indifferent on those two options but I feel strongly that, as we have now said on multiple groups, we cannot just rely on the wording in a previous Act, which this Bill aims to update, without recognising that, at the same time, we need to update what an age-appropriate design code looks like in the age of AI.

The second amendment that I speak to is Amendment 252, on the open address file. I will not bore noble Lords with my endless stories about the use of the address file during Covid, but I lived through and experienced the challenges of this. I highlight an important phrase in the amendment. Proposed new subsection (1) says:

“The Secretary of State must regularly publish a list of UK addresses as open data to an approved data standard”.


One reason why it is a problem for this address data to be held by an independent private company is that the quality of the data is not good enough. That is a real problem if you are trying to deliver a national service, whether in the public sector or the private sector. If the data quality is not good enough, it leaves us substantially poorer as a country. This is a fundamental asset for the country and a fundamental building block of our geolocation data, as the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, set out. Anybody who has tried to build a service that delivers things to human beings in the physical world knows that errors in the database can cause huge problems. It might not feel like a huge problem if it concerns your latest Amazon delivery but, if it concerns the urgent dispatch of an ambulance, it is life and death. Maintaining the accuracy of the data and holding it close as a national asset is therefore hugely important, which is why I lend my support to this amendment.

Online Safety Bill

Debate between Lord Kamall and Baroness Harding of Winscombe

Report stage
Wednesday 19th July 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

My Lords, I rise to speak in favour of my noble friend Lord Moylan’s amendment. Given that I understand he is not going to press it, and while I see Amendment 255 as the ideal amendment, I thank the noble Lords, Lord Stevenson and Lord Clement- Jones, for their Amendments 256, 257 and 259, and the noble Lords, Lord Clement-Jones and Lord Allan of Hallam, for Amendments 258 and 258ZA.

I will try to be as brief as I can. I think about two principles—unintended consequences and the history of technology transfer. The point about technology transfer is that once a technology is used it becomes available to other people quickly, even bad guys, whether that was intended or not. There is obviously formal technology transfer, where you have agreement or knowledge transfer via foreign investment, but let us think about the Cold War and some of the great technological developments—atomic secrets, Concorde and the space shuttle. In no time at all, the other side had that access, and that was before the advent of the internet.

If we are to open a door for access to encrypted messages, that technology will be available to the bad guys in no time at all, and they will use it against dissidents, many of whom will be in contact with journalists and human rights organisations in this country and elsewhere. Therefore, the unintended consequence may well be that in seeking to protect children in this country by accessing encrypted messages or unencrypted messages, we may well be damaging the childhoods of children in other countries when their parents, who are dissidents, are suddenly taken away and maybe the whole family is wiped out. Let us be careful about those unintended consequences.

I also welcome my noble friend Lord Parkinson’s amendments about ensuring journalistic integrity, such as Amendment 257D and others. They are important. However, we must remember that once these technologies are available, everyone has a price and that technology will be transferred to the bad guys.

Given that my noble friend Lord Moylan will not press Amendment 255, let us talk about some of the other amendments—I will make some general points rather than go into specifics, as many noble Lords have raised these points. These amendments are sub-optimal, but at least there is some accountability for Ofcom being able to use this power and using it sensibly and proportionately. One of the things that has run throughout this Bill and other Bills is “who regulates the regulators?” and ensuring that regulators are accountable. The amendments proposed by the noble Lords, Lord Stevenson and Lord Clement-Jones, and by the noble Lords, Lord Clement-Jones and Lord Allan of Hallam, go some way towards ensuring that safeguards are in place. If the Government are not prepared to have an explicit statement that they will not allow access to encrypted messages, I hope that there will be some support for the noble Lords’ amendments.

[Baroness Harding of Winscombe (Con)]

My Lords, I promise to speak very briefly. I welcome the Government’s amendments. I particularly welcome that they appear to mirror partly some of the safeguards that are embedded in the Investigatory Powers Act 2016.

I have one question for my noble friend the Minister about the wording, “a skilled person”. I am worried that “a skilled person” is a very vague term. I have been taken all through the course of this Bill by the comparison with the Investigatory Powers Act and the need to think carefully about how we balance the importance of privacy with the imperative of protecting our children and being able to track down the most evil and wicked perpetrators online. That is very similar to the debates that we had here several years ago on the Investigatory Powers Act.

The IPA created the Technical Advisory Board. It is not a decision-making body. Its purpose is to advise the Investigatory Powers Commissioner and judicial commissioners on the impact of changing technology and the development of techniques to use investigatory powers while maintaining privacy. It is an expert panel constituted to advise the regulator—in this case, the judicial commissioner—specifically on technology interventions that must balance this really difficult trade-off between privacy and child protection. Why have we not followed the same recipe? Rather than having a skilled person, why would we not have a technology advisory panel of a similar standing where it is clear to all who the members are. Those members would be required to produce a regular report. It might not need to be as regular as the IPA one, but it would just take what the Government have already laid one step further towards institutionalising the independent check that is really important if these Ofcom powers were ever to be used.

Health and Care Bill

Debate between Lord Kamall and Baroness Harding of Winscombe

Lords Hansard - Part 1 & Committee stage
Monday 24th January 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kamall (Con)]

The noble Lord has recovered.

[Baroness Harding of Winscombe (Con)]

I am sorry—the noble Lord, Lord Patel, is here. I meant to say the noble Lord, Lord Bethell. I apologise for my senior moment.

I will begin again. I rise to speak on behalf of my noble friends Lady Blackwood and Lord Bethell, neither of whom is in their place. I should, out of an abundance of caution—particularly given how well I have spoken so far—declare the interests of both my noble friend Lady Blackwood and me, as the present and past chairs of Genomics England.

In speaking to Amendments 79 and 196, we wish to support the noble Lords, Lord Sharkey, Lord Kakkar and Lord Patel, in calling for trusts and integrated care boards to have a duty to conduct research and to report on the steps they have taken to deliver it. We know that there are excellent research-active NHS organisations in the UK, ranging from our acute tertiary university hospitals, such as Oxford, to our district general hospitals, such as Portsmouth.

There are many initiatives to promote research, such as Saving and Improving Lives: The Future of UK Clinical Research Delivery, which sets out a bold and exciting vision. In particular, my noble friends and I await with interest the Find, Recruit and Follow-up service, which plans to use digital tools to identify patients who may be suitable subjects for research. When speaking to patients, one of the refrains that we all hear most often is that they find it hard to find suitable clinical trials, and we welcome any initiative that can make it easier for patients to take part in clinical research.

As well as supporting patients in finding trials, we need to make it as easy as possible for them to participate. In some cases, the pandemic has accelerated a move towards remote monitoring tools—wearables and other devices that allow individuals to participate in trials while reducing the number of visits they have to make to hospitals. We welcome the NIHR remote trial delivery toolkit, which makes recommendations on how some of these positive practices can be continued and so broaden participation and promote patient retention in a beneficial way.

My noble friend Lady Blackwood, as a rare disease patient herself, knows that clinical research is often the only way for patients to get access to innovative treatment. Yet we are saddened to see, in the annual NIHR publication on initiating and delivering clinical research, that some trusts are still not delivering trials every quarter. We continue to see a large disparity in the number of trials being offered in each trust, which leads to a postcode lottery. Those individuals fortunate enough to be under the care of a research-active hospital have an increased chance of being recruited on to a trial, and therefore have better outcomes than patients under the care of less research-active hospitals.

Patients admitted to more research-active hospitals also have more confidence in staff and are better informed about their condition and medication. And as the noble Lord, Lord Davies of Brixton, has said, there is very clear evidence that research-active trusts deliver better outcomes—in part, I am sure, because of their ability to retain and energise staff, as the noble Lord, Lord Kakkar, has mentioned.

The last couple of years, however, have been challenging for the health research community. In 2020, the Association of Medical Research Charities predicted a £320 million shortfall in research spending, forcing many medical research charities to make tough choices about which projects to prioritise. Data also suggests that the UK has been slower to return to pre-pandemic levels of commercial clinical research compared with other European countries.

The Life Sciences Vision sets out the Government’s objective to be a science superpower, but this requires research to be embedded in every part of the NHS, including primary, community and mental health services. That will happen only if NHS organisations, including the new integrated care boards, have a duty to conduct research, as these amendments propose.

In addition, we all know that what gets measured gets done, which is why these amendments place a duty on trusts and ICBs to report the steps that they are taking to deliver clinical research in their annual reports or forward plans. This not only enables progress to be tracked but helps patients understand what research is being done in their area and will encourage NHS organisations to invest in research that meets the needs of their local communities and—