Mental Health Bill [HL]

Lord Kakkar Excerpts

Committee stage
Monday 20th January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Patel (CB)]

I agree with what has been said: we need a definitive plan for how things will work out. We cannot rely on it being in five or 10 years because, as the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, said, it then just becomes an ambition rather than a target to achieve.

I support the amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Browning, which strongly asks that the people who look after children with autism and learning disabilities are properly assessed by properly trained and accredited people. We know that, currently, children are ending up in detention inappropriately because they are assessed to have a psychiatric condition such as schizophrenia—as the noble Baroness, Lady Browning, said—when, although they might have some psychiatric sub-condition, they fundamentally have autism or learning disability problems.

I am sorry that the noble Lord, Lord Adebowale, is not here to speak to his Amendment 150, which asks quite powerfully for a clear plan to be laid out, with resources tied to it, to achieve the ambitions there are in the Bill. I would have supported his amendment probing the Minister as to how resources will be allocated to achieve the ambitions for those targets to be met.

[Lord Kakkar (CB)]

My Lords, I support Amendment 42A in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Browning, and I ask the Minister what justification there could be for refuting the amendment. It seems entirely appropriate, and indeed essential, that in taking such an important, far-reaching decision, one of the two registered medical practitioners who is responsible for that decision, taken at one point in the management of the natural history of disease in that individual, has the specialist skills and training to be able to make an appropriate assessment, one that will affect interventions on all future occasions for that individual.

I hope that, in addition to accepting this important principle, the noble Baroness might outline how His Majesty’s Government will go about ensuring that the development of such medical practitioners and their training is adequately resourced to ensure that, in future, as a result of the Bill being enacted, what we have seen in the past, regrettably on repeated occasions, does not remain the norm for managing patients with autism and learning disabilities.

[Earl Howe (Con)]

My Lords, I shall be very brief, because other noble Lords have already eloquently articulated the arguments that are almost self-evident about the importance of services for people with autism or a learning disability and, in particular, the importance of training all staff who may find themselves working in those fields. I agree very much with the remarks of my noble friend Lady Browning and the noble Lord, Lord Scriven, and I was particularly interested in the research mentioned by the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett of Manor Castle, which brings us into a whole new dimension, I think, in this debate.

The need to train all healthcare staff, no matter what role they perform or which part of the health service they serve in, should surely be taken as read. This should be training both in the initial identification of those with autism or a learning disability and in the skills needed to handle such individuals with the necessary sensitivity and insight. I was interested in what the noble Baroness, Lady Barker, had to say about that. The behaviour of a person who is on the autistic spectrum can be baffling to anyone who has had no experience of it, and because of that it can be open to misinterpretation. A situation of that kind carries dangers, which is why it is so necessary for healthcare staff to know how to react in a way that will make the situation better and not worse.

This is not the first time that we have debated this important topic. I believe we may be told by the Minister that mandatory training in these areas is already provided for in Section 20 of the Health and Social Care Act 2008. The provision reads:

“Regulations under this section must require service providers to ensure that each person working for the purpose of the regulated activities carried on by them receives training on learning disability and autism which is appropriate to the person’s role”.


That broad provision was inserted into the 2008 Act thanks to an amendment which your Lordships approved three years ago, during our debates on the Health and Care Act 2022.

So, a provision on training is already enshrined in law; the problem is that we have no way of knowing the extent to which it is being implemented in practice. Hence, Amendment 145 would require the Secretary of State to publish a review on mandatory training for all persons who treat patients with learning disabilities and autism under the 1983 Act and consult as necessary to determine the extent to which health service staff are actually in receipt of such training. I see this amendment as perhaps a logical partner to Amendment 152 in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Bennett, and indeed, in his absence, to the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Adebowale.

While the vast majority of people who provide care to people with learning disabilities and autism do so with compassion and professionalism, we have seen a number of failings in care for people with those conditions. At the same time, detention will continue to be necessary in some cases where a patient with autism or a learning disability is suffering from a separate mental health condition. In all those cases, regardless of the context in which a person presents, we need to have confidence that the people providing care have the training they need to deliver that care sensitively, and above all, capably. I would venture to say that the people who need to have most confidence in the system apart from the person receiving the care are the parents or nearest relatives of that person. Hence, I believe we need more transparency on how well the system is working than we have currently.

Incidentally, one of the things that could come out of a review of training is an opportunity to look at the current processes for whistleblowing. An important aspect of improving standards of care is to have a system of accountability that includes listening to everyone in the sector, from the most senior staff to the most junior. No one should be afraid to speak up when they see something going on that does not look right, and I should be very grateful to hear what the Minister has to say on this whole theme and on the other important issues that noble Lords have raised.

NHS Hospitals: Apheresis

Lord Kakkar Excerpts

Wednesday 9th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

I thank the noble Baroness for raising that issue. I am sure it will be part of the working group’s investigations as it seeks to expand capacity to meet existing demand.

[Lord Kakkar (CB)]

I draw noble Lords’ attention to my registered interests. The Minister has identified the importance of having a framework for the adoption and standard incorporation of innovative technologies into routine care. In this regard, the long-term plan for the NHS that His Majesty’s Government are preparing is a vital element of what will happen over the next five years. Can the Minister confirm that that plan will look specifically at commissioning these innovations in such a way that life sciences innovation in our country is protected, and they get to patients quickly?

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

Yes, I can confirm that we will be drawing on the parts of the report of the noble Lord, Lord Darzi, that refer to that. He refers to the need for innovation, to expand the use we make of life sciences and to develop that still further. That will very much form part of not just our thinking, but our doing.

NHS: Independent Investigation

Lord Kakkar Excerpts

Tuesday 8th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Merron (Lab)]

Yes, I certainly agree with my noble friend about the need for better integration. Joint training is a very practical example and will be part of how we develop the workforce, because silo working clearly is not working, as we can see in the current state of affairs, particularly if we look at the relationship between the National Health Service and the social care service. It is not seamless, and individuals are suffering for that, so I very much agree with my noble friend.

[Lord Kakkar (CB)]

My Lords, I draw noble Lords’ attention to my registered interests, in particular as chairman of King’s Health Partners and of the King’s Fund. In the report by the noble Lord, Lord Darzi, a picture is clearly painted of what now represents a very serious national challenge in securing the long-term sustainability of our health service and, as the Minister has recognised, the parallel need to consider questions of how we develop a long-term strategy for the provision of social care.

On 18 April this year, in a debate in your Lordships’ House initiated by my noble friend Lord Patel on the question of the long-term sustainability of the health and care systems, there was a discussion about how one might achieve consensus—consensus among the public, consensus among the professions and political consensus to ensure that a plan might be adopted which will require very difficult decisions and great courage and commitment over a sustained period of time to deliver the kind of objective about which we all agree. How will His Majesty’s Government go about developing that consensus in addition to developing the plan that must be applied?