Trade Union Bill
Debate between Lord Judd and Lord Oates
Lord Judd (Lab)
My Lords, very often the noble Lord, Lord Balfe, makes points with which I strongly agree. He is right and very courageous to put forward his views on public money being used for the funding of political parties and on expenditure limits in elections. He and I could go a long way together in what he argues there. But what I do not understand in his logic is why—if people join trade unions to protect their interests in the context of the work they do; and should the bodies they have joined, which are representing their aspirations, come to the conclusion that it is necessary to have a healthy democracy, locally and nationally, for that objective to be fulfilled—parties should be constrained in making their contribution towards that work.
As many noble Lords will know, I spent a great deal of my professional life working in what used to be called the underdeveloped countries but which we now call weaker economies and all sorts of other polite words. In that context, there was a need not just for realising the importance of the redistribution of wealth in the world but to realise that if the people of those countries were to have a chance and make progress, they must have democratic systems. That argument—that we make an advance when we get a democracy established—has had great support from all political parties in this country. However, having done that sort of work for as many years as I have, I have always thought that there is a certain danger of naivety in the belief that, “Right; we’ve got an elected system established and we’re going to have elections—that’s the fulfilment of the task”. Of course it is not. There will be success only if there is a healthy and vigorous civil society that provides a context in which there will be understanding, effective argument and in which the ingredients essential to a working democracy can be advanced.
It therefore seems that if we look at our own country, we should be rather concerned. The noble Lord and I grew up over very much the same years and entered elected political activity in very much the same years—indeed, we knew each other a bit in those days. When you compare the proportion of the electorate who participate by voting in our general elections or, even more so, in our local elections, we cannot be complacent. What has happened is very sad. The full-hearted public participation in the democratic system seems to any outsider to be on the decline rather than advancing. I would have thought, therefore, that if we are all agreed that we need a healthy democratic system and accountability of government within our democratic system, civil society is more vital than ever in our own country in the role that it plays in encouraging participation in elections. Surely the special role the trade unions have to play is that they can bring home to people that these electoral systems and participation in those systems are not about something different from their working life—they are highly relevant to their working life. Whatever the arguments about supporting particular individual political parties—and of course there are different views about that; I have strong views but respect those who do not have the same views—it seems to me that we all agree that we need everyone in civil society to encourage participation in the democratic process. Whatever policies we may advocate, we need a healthy democracy and the accountability of government.
Looked at together with some other things that have been happening of late in the approach to government policies and in the approach to controls on, and regulation of, the activities of civil society, we should be a bit anxious about the ultimate objective here. I am quite concerned about this. Do we or do we not believe in a democracy? If we believe in a democracy, how do we encourage full participation in the democratic system? On the one hand, you argue the policies that you advocate and want to see; on the other hand, you want to make sure that whatever emerges is representative and rests on the full participation of as much of the population as possible in the democratic process.
The amendments put forward by my noble friend are the nitty-gritty of generating a healthy democracy with a contribution from the trade union movement. I hope that these arguments will be given very careful consideration by the Minister in her response and in the way she carries forward the Government’s position on Report.
Lord Oates (LD)
My Lords, I share the view of the noble Lord and I hope that the Minister will consider extremely carefully the comments that have been made, particularly in relation to Amendment 69 but in relation to all the amendments. The real worry here is that the Government seem to regard the trade unions as a threat to be regulated, rather than as a key part of our civil society and as a key contributor to our democracy.