Prison Sentences

Debate between Lord Judd and Lord Keen of Elie

Monday 29th June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Keen of Elie]

On the basis of figures from research in 2016, it is suggested that if offenders received a prison sentence of up to 12 months, they were something like four percentage points more likely to re-offend than if they had received a community sentence. However, noble Lords must bear in mind that those receiving a prison sentence of up to 12 months are very frequently those who have already received a community sentence and then re-offended.

[Lord Judd (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, this is a very important question. It is absolute economic nonsense to put so much concentration on short sentences when the money could be used much more constructively towards rehabilitation. The reconstituted probation service will have a key role to play, but do the Government accept that, apart from establishing that crime is crime and cannot be tolerated, the task overall is to rehabilitate? Many of these short sentences are dealing with people whose lives are in chaos. Without proper rehabilitation facilities, their lives become more chaotic; it does not help towards rehabilitation.

[Lord Keen of Elie]

Rehabilitation is of course an important aim, but it is not the sole aim in the context of criminal justice. At present there are no plans to end short-term prison sentences. Of course, short sentences do not help some offenders turn their backs on crime, but protecting the public has to be our priority.

Prisons: Overcrowding

Debate between Lord Judd and Lord Keen of Elie

Thursday 14th May 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Keen of Elie]

First, we have made provision to ensure that we did not come up to capacity in our prisons, but we did not commit to releasing a set number of prisoners. In the event, given developments in jury trials in Crown Courts and magistrates’ courts, since mid-March we have seen a significant fall in the number of prisoners. As regards the emergency release provisions that were announced and to which the noble Lord referred, the position as at 12 May this year is that 21 pregnant women or mothers have been removed from mother and baby units, five extremely vulnerable prisoners have been released, and 57 prisoners have been released under the end of custody temporary release scheme, giving a total of 83 releases under the scheme.

[Lord Judd (Lab)]

Can the Minister confirm that the central plank of government penal policy is rehabilitation because it makes economic sense, while the cost of not successfully rehabilitating becomes very heavy to society? In that context, will he explain how keeping prisoners in humiliating and degrading conditions can possibly assist in the process of rehabilitation? Is getting these things right not urgent if we are sincere about saving the nation money by not having a high rate of reoffending?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

The noble Lord is quite right: rehabilitation is one of the central pillars of our policy with regard to prisons. That has been made extremely difficult by reason of the Covid pandemic. It has been necessary to limit the movement of prisoners within prisons in order to contain the Covid threat. It has been necessary to curtail rehabilitation schemes and education schemes. That is extremely unfortunate, but we hope that, as soon we are beyond the Covid issue, we will be able to return to the schemes we have in place for rehabilitation.

Serco

Debate between Lord Judd and Lord Keen of Elie

Thursday 4th July 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Keen of Elie]

My Lords, I am prepared to accept that the noble Lord is not unique. Be that as it may, we currently have no proposals to contract out the guarding of Buckingham Palace or any other royal institution.

[Lord Judd (Lab)]

My Lords, when the Government are approaching these matters, do they evaluate or take into account the invaluable contribution to the quality of the service when people are working for it directly and taking pride in that, rather than feeling that they are working for the profits of a private company?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

With respect to the noble Lord, people can quite rightly take pride in the fact that they are working for a service even where it is privatised.

Probation Reform

Debate between Lord Judd and Lord Keen of Elie

Thursday 16th May 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Judd (Lab)]

My Lords, does the Minister not agree that in its earlier chapters the probation service attained an outstanding reputation and public confidence because of the quality, wisdom, experience and insight of its staff? That is crucial to the operation. Does he not also agree that, while there may be an argument about what happened in the last phase, there is very little doubt that, among many people, its reputation seemed to be in jeopardy as short cuts were taken and that there was a perception that the probation service had become an extension of the custodial system and had rather lost the purpose it was there to fulfil? Does he not therefore agree that, whatever happens—and we wish the new system well—commitment, quality of staff and the relationship and friendships that have to be built up between the officers and the people with whom they are dealing will be absolutely crucial?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

My Lords, I without hesitation and qualification commend the professionalism, integrity and ability of the staff within the probation service. That is why we are intent on implementing a statutory professional regulatory framework that will recognise the degree of professionalism that they have exhibited and continue to exhibit in the discharge of their demanding functions. The National Probation Service has extended its staff in recent years by about 500, and is bringing on further training of such staff. Going forward, we have appreciated the need to ensure consistency in the delivery of probation services and are not looking back to the prior form in which probation was delivered. When there were 35 probation trusts operating, with commendable staff, there were 35 ways of doing things. We have found that it is far better to try to identify a single, unified way of doing things for the entire probation service.

Legal Aid, Sentencing and Punishment of Offenders Act 2012

Debate between Lord Judd and Lord Keen of Elie

Thursday 7th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Keen of Elie]

My Lords, we recognise the importance of a viable, properly trained and effective criminal Bar in order to maintain suitable access to justice for all. That is demanding in the present circumstances. Quite recently, as my noble and learned friend Lord Garnier will know, we have increased the level of fees for criminal justice work. That was done in discussion with the Bar Council in order that it could be suitably targeted to the areas where it was most needed. But I will not suggest that no more needs to be done. I quite understand the observations made about the need to maintain a viable, effective criminal Bar in that respect.

We are conscious of the issue of litigants in person, particularly of the need to avoid the simple matter of cost transferring: in other words, you relieve one area of costs by reducing legal aid provision only to find that you increase costs elsewhere because of the demands on the court system and the judiciary, because with an increasing number of litigants in person, we may find that court hearings take longer and are more demanding. We are conscious of that when looking at this overall. I reiterate that legal aid provision as such is only one aspect of a wider ecosystem that is designed to ensure access to justice.

[Lord Judd (Lab)]

My Lords, it is not so long ago in history that Mr Nabarro claimed to the nation, after a rather sensational motoring case, that British justice was unequalled in the world so long as you could afford to pay for it. We have come a long way since then, or we had. We can summarise the exchanges that have already taken place by saying that the quality of justice is essentially related to access to justice. Therefore, the priority for all Governments must be ensuring that access is equal and it is not just the administration endeavouring to be equal.

There has been reference to criminal law, and I am very glad that the noble and learned Lord opposite made the point about the dedicated work done in this sphere by insufficiently recognised lawyers. We also ought to bear in mind the tremendous amount of work done in this area by voluntary organisations and the rest, which strive to cover the gaps that are there. We should not have this exchange without recognising that work—by people who are really dedicated to the cause of equality in justice. It is rather important that we get this right as urgently as possible, at a time when we are parading around the world the concept that we cannot possibly operate with the European Court of Justice because our entire system is so perfect. I do not see our system as perfect at all while this problem remains.

[Lord Keen of Elie]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Judd, for his observations. I certainly acknowledge the point he made about the contribution of the voluntary sector in this area. Citizens Advice and other bodies make a very material contribution and we seek to support them in that endeavour. In addition, we are expanding the funding available for advice to litigants in person. Again, I hope that that will help some of the more vulnerable.

The design of legal aid is to ensure that it is targeted at the most vulnerable in our society. That is essential. Indeed, very often we hear complaints not from the most vulnerable but from those who would be perceived to have a relatively comfortable income who find that they are called upon to make payment in respect of legal support—legal defence in some circumstances—where 10 or 20 years ago that would not have been the case. I refer in that context to, for example, the recovery of defence costs in the context of criminal trials, which are now the subject of limitations that did not exist many years ago. The intent here is to target legal advice, legal assistance and legal cost at the most vulnerable in our society. We have sought to expand that by improving access to legal aid, and by seeking to improve the exceptional case funding system and to simplify it for parties seeking to use it.

Central Courts IT System

Debate between Lord Judd and Lord Keen of Elie

Wednesday 23rd January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Keen of Elie]

I am obliged to the noble Lord for his observations, drawing upon his own experiences in the ministry when we began the introduction of the common platform system. Clearly, we want to move on to that platform fully and as soon as possible. We have already seen some success in the digital approach that has been taken to some forms of casework—such as debt actions and undefended divorce actions—and we want to roll that out further. With regard to the existing system: it is not perfect. If it was perfect, we would not be seeking to replace it. There are back-ups, but they are of limited operability because of the availability of wi-fi in courts in circumstances where it has not been possible for those working there to access their desktop computers. That has been the case in some courts recently, and in the ministry itself, because of this particular problem.

At the end of the day, the Ministry of Justice must consider the effectiveness and efficiency of the computer system that it relies upon, not only as a ministry but also for its attendant agencies and arm’s-length bodies. We accept that we have a responsibility in that matter.

[Lord Judd (Lab)]

My Lords, yesterday, in his evidence to the Justice Sub-Committee, the Home Secretary was emphatic that the registration of EU people living in Britain will be dependent entirely on IT and that there are no plans whatever to give people documentary evidence of what has been granted. With the vulnerability of IT again being illustrated today, I wonder whether we could have an undertaking that Ministers will look again at this approach.

[Lord Keen of Elie]

I thank the noble Lord for his question. I do not believe that it is for me to gainsay the Home Secretary’s evidence before the Justice Sub-Committee, so I am afraid I am not in a position to commit to any alternative approach on the matter at present.

European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018

Debate between Lord Judd and Lord Keen of Elie

Tuesday 11th December 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Keen of Elie]

In the event that the House of Commons resolves not to approve the withdrawal agreement, in accordance with the provisions of Section 13, it will be a requirement that a Minister of the Crown will, within a period of 21 days, make a Statement to the House with regard to our intentions.

[Lord Judd (Lab)]

My Lords, does the Minister accept that meanwhile there is real urgency about what happens next and that the 21 January strategy should in a sense fade into the background because immediate information and certainty is necessary? I am constantly approached by people in business, the professions, the health service and universities about the uncertainty prevailing in their planning for the future. We are going into the new year with no further indication of certainty on which they can plan.

[Lord Keen of Elie]

My Lords, certainty can be embraced in due course by proving the withdrawal agreement that has been laid before Parliament.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Lord Judd and Lord Keen of Elie

Wednesday 21st March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Keen of Elie]

I will certainly give consideration to that point, but it is not immediately clear to me that the clause could be used to evade those limitations. I will address it in due course.

[Lord Judd (Lab)]

Before we conclude this part of our deliberations, I refer back to what my noble friend said. I have every respect for the Minister—I mean that. I am quite sure that he would never, with ministerial responsibility, go against the clear intention of Parliament with these residual powers. But are we absolutely certain, with all the unpredictability and turbulence of politics across the world today, that every possible Administration would act as responsibly as he would?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

I am not sure that I am in a position to answer that question. Nevertheless, when we legislate, we must also legislate as to what a future Administration would do with that legislation. I quite accept that point.

Leveson Inquiry Update

Debate between Lord Judd and Lord Keen of Elie

Thursday 1st March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Keen of Elie]

The decision made by government was that part 2 of the Leveson inquiry would not go forward, and I commend to the noble Lord the terms of Sir Brian’s own letter. I do not think it would be appropriate for me to seek to paraphrase him; it is far better that this letter, which will be placed in the public domain, should be considered in that context.

[Lord Judd (Lab)]

My Lords, does the Minister agree—I am sure that if he does, he will have widespread respect—that the press has a long-standing and historical role in society? It is in many ways the lifeblood of democracy itself because a democracy can function well only if the quality and truthfulness of the press can be seen and respected. It is also the guardian of human rights and individual freedoms. Commercial pressures have always been there—on how to make newspapers pay, for example—but, ultimately, it is in fulfilling that historic purpose that they will be respected in society. How can we have a society in which journalists and writers are able to act honestly, and with a real sense of commitment to truth, if they are to be seen as subjects of a regime run by irresponsible owners?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

To a large extent, I concur with the observations made by the noble Lord, Lord Judd. It is for society to demand from the press the sort of press that it requires in order to maintain its freedoms and its democratic traditions. We have to remember that society is also the customer for that press and therefore carries considerable weight in that context. We see that reflected in the demise of the News of the World. It was not just a question of closing down a newspaper; it was a recognition that that newspaper had so lost its way that society—its customers—would have responded in a very particular way in any event. It was not an altruistic act but, I rather suspect, a realisation of the reality of the situation that the newspaper had found itself in.

Brexit: Human Rights

Debate between Lord Judd and Lord Keen of Elie

Tuesday 12th December 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Keen of Elie]

I am not going to debate this at length, but I wholly reject the proposition that the noble Baroness advances. I simply do not accept it at all.

A series of questions were posed by the noble Baroness, Lady Barker. Is equality before the law part of the United Kingdom’s law? Yes, of course; it is fundamental to our law. Is equality protected by United Kingdom law? Yes, of course it is. We do not have to rely on the EU charter for these rights; they already exist. The charter is an expression of rights and principles that already exist. I noted some specific questions and if the noble Baroness wishes, I will write to her to respond to those questions—I shall not attempt to address them now.

The noble Baroness, Lady Chakrabarti, sought to turn this into a party-political broadcast rather than a debate. I am not sure that is the way forward for a determination of these issues. I believe that we have fundamental beliefs in common on equality and human rights, and I reject the suggestions of xenophobia, or that there will be any loss of rights because we are losing the charter.

[Lord Judd]

The Minister suggests that my noble friend was turning this into a party-political broadcast. Does he recall that only yesterday afternoon at Question Time we were challenged from that side of the House on what our policy was? This afternoon my noble friend was giving it.

[Lord Keen of Elie]

I was not here yesterday afternoon but I am obliged to the noble Lord for his intervention.

Criminal Justice: Interpretation and Translation Services

Debate between Lord Judd and Lord Keen of Elie

Wednesday 29th November 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Keen of Elie]

I entirely agree with the observation made by the right reverend Prelate. That is why the present contract provision includes a quality assurance provision by the Language Shop, to ensure that not only are the appropriate levels of qualification available but also the appropriate skills.

[Lord Judd (Lab)]

Does the noble and learned Lord agree that there is a great deal of anxiety about people’s experiences with interpretation? It is not just a matter of making sure that an interpreter is there—the quality of the interpretation is essential. Surely with the whole principle of the quality of justice, and of justice being seen and felt to be done, one cannot overestimate the importance of interpretation and its quality. That must apply to civil law as well as criminal law and certainly to the immigration sector.

[Lord Keen of Elie]

We are confident about the quality of the translation and interpretation services provided to the courts at present, which have been provided under the present contractual regime since 31 October 2016.

Prison Officers’ Association: Protest Action

Debate between Lord Judd and Lord Keen of Elie

Tuesday 15th November 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Judd (Lab)]

My Lords, to follow that question, the Minister has said there is an overwhelming number of mental health problems in our prisons. Is not the reality even worse, in that many of these people should never have been in prison at all? The experience of prison is counterproductive to their ability to build a future and to their well-being. What attention are we giving to providing alternative arrangements for mentally ill or mentally disturbed people? Would he not agree that it is a matter not just of numbers, although of course numbers matter, but of the purpose, dynamic and morale of the Prison Service? It makes nothing but economic and humane sense to have rehabilitation as the priority in safe custody. Can we please reassert the importance of this word “rehabilitation” and make it central to the purpose of the Prison Service?

[Lord Keen of Elie]

I am obliged to the noble Lord. Clearly, our sentencing policy embraces more than just custodial sentences and has done for some considerable time. Clearly, the morale of those working in a difficult environment in our prisons is an issue. The noble Lord raised in particular rehabilitation. That lies at the very heart of our proposed reforms, not just with rehabilitation taking place in prisons, but with rehabilitation that will take prisoners through the gates of the prison and back into the community so that we avoid the present situation, in which more than half of those sentenced to a period of imprisonment return to prison in a relatively short period of time.