Controlling Migration

Debate between Lord Judd and Baroness Neville-Jones

Tuesday 23rd November 2010 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Neville-Jones]

My Lords, I think that that sentiment would be widely shared in the House. It is certainly shared in the Government. If the consultation that has just been conducted on the employment sector is anything to go by, the House can be confident that this consultation will also be wide-ranging and thorough. In this particular consultation with business, we talked to something like 30,000 individuals and had something like 3,000 responses, which I understand was a record for this kind of consultation, speaking to upwards of 1,000 employers. I lay that on the line because it indicates that we have been a listening Government and far from a confused one. We will do the same in other sectors.

[Lord Judd]

Does the Minister agree that we should not simply acknowledge the contribution made by migration to this country but, across the political divide, warmly thank migrants for the tremendous contribution that they have made to the well-being and health of this country? Would she agree, too, that some pretty crude contradictions are inevitable in an immigration policy? On one hand, we are committed to the principles of a global market and encourage the free movement of goods and capital and the rest; on the other hand, there is no free movement of labour. That is a fundamental contradiction in the theory of the market. Does that not make it essential that we consult across government with all relevant departments about the compensatory measures needed in development policy, international financial policy and international economic policy for this distortion in the market? While doing that, how far do the Ministers with immediate responsibility discuss with colleagues in DfID the implications of a policy that seems to give priority to those who arguably are the people most needed in their own countries to build up their countries’ economy and provide employment opportunities for a wider cross-section of their populations?

[Baroness Neville-Jones]

My Lords, it is historically well based to assert that migration has been extraordinarily beneficial to this country. We have had immense advantage out of being an open society. The noble Lord asks whether we could be behaving in ways that disadvantage countries that need to retain their own talent. That is a perfectly fair point that goes to the core of successful development policies—because we do not have successful development in developing countries in the absence of the talent that they need to lead. That is one of the many reasons why we need to break the link between allowing or inviting people to come here and benefit from our education system and possibly taking subsequent employment without using this as a route to settle down here and leave their own countries, where they might benefit their own communities. I take the point absolutely. The policy that we are trying to pursue and that will draw some in—and we wish to see them here—is not designed to deprive countries permanently of their leadership talent.

Immigration: Jimmy Mubenga

Debate between Lord Judd and Baroness Neville-Jones

Wednesday 20th October 2010 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Neville-Jones]

My Lords, I regret to say that I do not have that figure to hand, but I will certainly write to the noble Earl on the matter.

[Lord Judd]

Does the noble Baroness agree not only that this issue is grave in this particular instance but, with her responsibilities for security, that the trouble is that, when something goes wrong, it plays directly into the hands of those who are trying to manipulate opinion in support of militant rebels, terrorists and the rest? It is therefore essential to get the administration of policy in this area right and humane in the cause of winning hearts and minds.

[Baroness Neville-Jones]

My Lords, I am quite certain that the Government agree with every single point that the noble Lord has just made. This is the first time that there has been a death of an escorted individual and it is extraordinarily regrettable. We entirely take the point that this is exactly what we do not wish to happen. We will take the consequences and the findings of any investigation very seriously.

Counterterrorism and Security

Debate between Lord Judd and Baroness Neville-Jones

Tuesday 13th July 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Judd]

My Lords, the Joint Committee on Human Rights has done a great deal of work on this issue. Can the noble Baroness assure the House that its work will be taken into account in the review? Does she agree that terrorists operate when there is substantial alienation or, at least, ambivalence among people about how far they support the prevailing laws? In that context, is it not important for the review at least to take a look at how immigration, asylum and border controls are operated, to ensure that these are being done at all times in ways that win people’s heart and minds rather than actually leading to alienation? Finally, on deportations with assurances, I support some of the anxieties that have been expressed and ask simply whether the review can look closely at how much credence in the long term can be based on assurances, particularly with countries in which the use of torture is systematic in their administration of so-called justice?

[Baroness Neville-Jones]

The noble Lord is right that the Joint Committee on Human Rights has done extraordinarily valuable work, and I give him an absolute assurance that it will be taken into account in this review. On the question of whether there is support in the country for this body of prevailing law, one reason we want to look at it is precisely because we know that there is indeed unease—but not, I think, unease which is particularly to be found in any single quarter; it is more general than that. Obviously there are related issues and the question in all such reviews is about where you stop. One area that we regard as related, but which we are going to take separately although in current time, is how we pursue one of the four strands of CONTEST, that of the Prevent strategy. Our aim is not to abolish it, but we hope to make it more effective or, if I may put it this way, a bit more fit for purpose because we regard it as a flanking policy which affects the acceptability of some of this legislation, particularly among ethnic and minority communities.

Finally, the noble Lord raised the issue of deportation with assurances. The Government know that this is a difficult area and that what is written on paper is not always necessarily the reality. We also know that if we do not attempt to start a dialogue with countries and get assurances about the conditions into which people are going to be sent back and that they will be safe, we reduce the possibility of introducing such a policy. We have to have the capability, over time, of removing from this country people who have been convicted of very serious offences, and it is into that category that these people fall. We want to pursue the policy, but we do so with our eyes wide open.

Terrorism Act 2000

Debate between Lord Judd and Baroness Neville-Jones

Thursday 8th July 2010 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Neville-Jones]

Let me take my noble friend’s second point first. Section 43 does not contain any powers to stop vehicles. I think that the House will understand that it would not be very sensible not to have any powers at all to stop vehicles. In many respects, the greater danger may lie in someone, or persons, trying to do something in a vehicle. So it is necessary to be able to stop vehicles. Therefore, Section 44, as a matter of law, has to remain available for vehicles. In practice, however, it will be interpreted by using reasonable suspicion, as if it were a Section 43 power. I very much take the noble Lord’s point about the need for there not to be discrimination and disproportionality in the stopping of different groups in society. I think that that is a concern to the whole House, and it is being watched very carefully.

[Lord Judd]

Does the Minister agree that, quite apart from human rights and individual rights, this judgment is very much in the interests of good policing? Policing can be effective only with the maximum support and co-operation of the community. There is a real danger, in this very sensitive area, that policy can become counterproductive at the very time when we need that maximum co-operation.

[Baroness Neville-Jones]

My Lords, I am sure that the whole House endorses that. I think that 7/7 was an example of the extraordinary importance of the community coming together. A noble Lord said earlier that there had been a considerable reduction in the use of Section 44 powers initiated and undertaken by the police. I think that that is in recognition of exactly the point that the noble Lord made; that is, it is important to be seen to be using the powers fairly and proportionately, and it creates resentment if those two characteristics are not present.