Healthcare (International Arrangements) Bill

Debate between Lord Judd and Baroness Brinton

Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 12th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Brinton (LD)]

My Lords, both the noble Lord, Lord Ribeiro, and the noble Baroness, Lady Chisholm of Owlpen, are missing the point of these amendments. While this is only an enabling Bill, it increases the scope of reciprocal health agreements with countries outside the EEA and Switzerland to include trade agreements. The noble Lords, Lord Lansley, and Lord O’Shaughnessy, at earlier stages of the Bill, raised exactly this point about setting up trade agreements. We are extremely concerned, for all the reasons given by the noble Baroness, Lady Thornton; this is the sort of large change that requires considerable consultation with the public prior to Green Papers, White Papers and bringing it through the House. We should not try to rush it through as one of the Brexit Bills, which it is, regardless of what happens over the next few days. This is one of the Bills that we were told must be passed by 29 March. Increasing the scope of the Bill means that we are moving into another area that the country, let alone this House, has not had a chance to consider.

I do not believe that reducing the scope would prevent some of the agreements already made; in fact, as the Minister has said when summing up previously, a number are already available. What it does is protect the NHS from being a bargaining tool, particularly—although not only—with the United States. Until the country has a chance to have that debate, it is important that we reduce the scope.

I endorse entirely the comments made by the noble Baronesses, Lady Thornton, and Lady Jolly, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, and the noble Lords, Lord Marks and Lord Foulkes. Our task is solely to replicate the arrangements that may become out of date on 1 April; it is important that we remain focused on that.

[Lord Judd (Lab)]

My Lords, I too find this amendment imperative. The Bill as it stands has some exciting prospects, which are worth looking at, but if we are to go down that road we must recognise that the implications are highly complex and potentially demanding economically. It is quite unthinkable that we should move along that road without primary legislation that has been properly considered by a wide cross-section of Britain, including the professions. It is extraordinary to bring in exciting, challenging ideas of this kind on the back of a Bill concerned with making sure that the excellent arrangements that exist within the European Union are protected.

The most imperative words that we have heard in the remarks so far—apart from the, as usual, exemplary speech by my noble friend Lady Thornton—came from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge, who, with all his experience, said that this is just wrong and that we cannot pass major legislation on this basis. That is exactly how I feel. To dilute our commitment to those in the European Union and, indeed, to people from the European Union living in this country—arrangements will be reciprocal—would be very unfortunate. I hope the House will warmly endorse the amendments.

European Union Bill

Debate between Lord Judd and Baroness Brinton

Wednesday 25th May 2011 Lords Chamber

Lord Judd: My Lords, I take that as general advice to the House, rather than as personal advice. There has been a great deal of discussion in this important debate about the interests of the British people and national interests. There are those of us who believe that the biggest challenge of all in politics, across the political divide, is to lead the British people in understanding that the best way their interests can be furthered, in the very uncertain future that now faces us, is to build strong international institutions in which their well-being will be safeguarded by essential—this word that is now so respectable—co-operation with others.

When I intervened at an earlier stage in our deliberations on this Bill, I talked about the lack of vision behind this legislation. Having listened to this debate, I am frankly more concerned about that than ever. I really believe that we are losing sight of the wood for the trees. Of course I respect the legal arguments and niceties but the noble and learned Lord, Lord Howe, is absolutely right to say that if only our energy, thought and deliberations were going into how we strengthen international institutions rather than how we preserve a traditional view of our national interests, it would be a great thing for British politics.

I believe we have to look at the significance of this Bill in the real world in which we are living. We know that part of the political drive behind the Bill is to reassure the British people that they have a Government who are not going to allow this international institution to start running their affairs in any greater dimension that it does already. This is such a wrong concept of the interests of the British people. The whole challenge is how we strengthen this institution in protecting their interests, together with those of our fellow citizens in Europe and more widely.

I feel strongly that we must also recognise how the media will play these deliberations. We know that a great deal of the popular media will say to the British people, “This is a fight against British interests and the European Union”. We have talked in this debate about Brussels and the European Union as though it were separate from us, just as over the years we talked about the United Nations as though it were separate from us. They are us; they have no being other than us, together with our colleagues in Europe. Our challenge is how we should work and co-operate with others in Europe to make them strong and effective. There is a problem of the leadership within the European Union—the drive within its practicalities—having got ahead of and lost contact with the British people. There is a huge job to be done there in re-establishing political leadership and in understanding what is at stake and why certain measures are necessary or not. Most disturbing of all is the reality that if we pursue this Bill to its conclusion, the message that will go to our European partners is that our membership of the European Union is not a full-blooded commitment but conditional.

All of us who have participated in government and been through such issues in the past know that if there was something of such significance that the view of the British people should be tested, any responsible British Government would be prepared on an ad hoc, specific basis to consider a referendum. However, to build into legislation the concept of conditionality is not the way to enhance and strengthen our role within the European Union. From that standpoint, I believe very much that the amendment put forward by my noble friend on the Front Bench and the other amendment, which in all practical respects reflects it, are the right amendments. We shall otherwise be making an historic choice in our deliberations: to go down the road of Little Englandism, as distinct from a role of real leadership and real participation in the international community, where the interests of our people can best be protected.

[Baroness Brinton]

My Lords, although I oppose both Amendments 61 and 63 for attempting to kill the Bill before its effect can be seen in practice, I have some sympathy with Amendment 62. Over the eight days that this Committee has sat, many noble Lords have expressed concern from both the pro and the anti-European perspectives about detail that is often not in the Bill itself, as the Bill is not about policy but very much about a legislative route and framework. As a new member of this House, I have found it somewhat bemusing that we have ended up debating policy issues—particularly dead-fish catches—when the Bill seems really to focus on the framework. That is not surprising given the strength of feeling on all sides about Europe, and I recognise that it is unlikely that we will ever reach unanimity; obviously, much of the concern is about that. Indeed, that was expressed in the coalition agreement—that we would be working from different policy perspectives but trying to find a route where we could work together, better to engage with the British public.

I have some sympathy with Amendment 62, on the grounds that it proposes a range of actions available for a future Parliament, and a future Secretary of State and his or her Government. However, there is one fundamental flaw with Amendment 62, in that it proposes that Part 1 and Schedule 1 expire at the end of this Parliament. The Government have said that they do not expect any referendums during this Parliament, because it is not expected that there will be any transfers of powers or competences during this Parliament. As an aside, I wonder whether the noble Lord, Lord Hannay of Chiswick, is conflating the “policy versus law” argument that I made earlier, because the Government have announced that they are taking the logic of this and turning it into law for the framework, not tackling policy issues.

That is why I hope that the arguments made in Amendment 64, to which I have added my name, will find favour with the Committee. It is a probing amendment that tries to find a pragmatic route through the current impasse in the House. In the amendment, we propose a sunset clause for half way through the next Parliament, which will give time to see how the referendum lock would work in practice. Importantly, it also provides for the opportunity to revive the order, should a future Secretary of State so will it; of course the correct instruments would go through both Houses. This gives a future Parliament the means to let the Act expire or to revive it by order, without having to schedule large amounts of time in both Houses at the beginning of a new Parliament. Amendment 64 therefore offers a neat solution for those on all sides of the argument, and I commend it to the House.