European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Lord Judd Excerpts

Committee: 3rd sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Wednesday 28th February 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Judd (Lab)]

My Lords, I warmly thank my noble friend for having put this amendment before the Committee. I should explain that I live in Cumbria and I understand very directly some of the things that have been said in this debate. It always gives me great heart when I see the European sign on tangible projects in an otherwise not too prosperous county, as an indication of European solidarity and a determination that people should stand together in making sure that a decent life is available to everyone. I do not think that, historically, we can overestimate the significance, the sadness, of what we are losing in that concept of European solidarity.

The other point I will make is that there have been references to reassurances and so on. Forgive me, I do not mean to be critical of those who have used the word, but I do not think that is enough. Possibilities have been created through our membership of the European Union. I believe that we have to have very firm guarantees from the Government that nothing is going to be lost in the context of what may be about to happen and that they will ensure that any work already in train, and any expectations already generated, will be fulfilled.

There really is a growing sense of injustice and unfairness in many parts of the country. The south-west is one example, and certainly the north is another example, not least Cumbria. There is a deep frustration—and in some instances it is not an exaggeration to say “anger”—about the disparities between what is available in the south and the south-east and what is not. I agree most warmly with the point made earlier in the debate that there is a feeling that our Government is a Government of the south-east and not a Government of the totality of British life. In that context, for Wales, Northern Ireland, Scotland, and indeed for English regions, we need those guarantees from the Government tonight.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, I am delighted to support Amendment 23, moved by my noble friend Lord Foulkes, and I concur without reservation with everything he said. The amendment addresses many crucial matters for Wales, as well as for Scotland and indeed for many parts of England. Article 174 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union aims to reduce disparities in terms of economic and social development between the various regions of Europe. The central plank of this is to reduce inequality. I fear that the same thing cannot be said of the policy of the present UK Government. The objective of their policy is in no way a concerted drive to attack the disparities that exist within these islands. The income per head of an area such as Kensington and Chelsea is 10 times that of the area of west Wales and the valleys, the Anglesey area or the Gwent area. We surely cannot accept a tenfold disparity in a civilised society.

Europe has been a bulwark for us over the past 15 years in Wales—the past 18 years, in fact—since we started getting the Objective 1 money in 2000. That money has come through as additional funding for Wales, after a bit of a fight, which I will talk about on another occasion, but we have not had the success that Liverpool and Merseyside, certainly, have had, and South Yorkshire has had to a lesser extent—and we still have a lot of work to do.

The reality is that, when we look at the matters of industrial infrastructure investment that are in Westminster’s hands, we see that Wales is the only country in western Europe that does not have a single mile of electrified railway line. What happened to the plans that were already drawn up to electrify to Swansea? They have been dropped—and the proposals to electrify from Crewe to Holyhead are somewhere in the clouds. Yet we in Wales are asked to pay our contribution towards HS2. The reality is that we get greater assistance with our economic needs from the European Union than from Westminster. That is one reason why it hurts so much that we are about to leave the European Union, unless something can be done about it. Another example of where the Westminster regime is not sensitive to the crying economic need of Wales is the Swansea Bay lagoon, which has been confirmed as being a viable project, with a former Conservative Member of Parliament driving it forward, yet the Government refuse to come off the fence on it.

Then there is the disparity in another important aspect of economic infrastructure: broadband connectivity. The UK Government have recently directed significant sums to improve broadband in three of the four countries of the UK. They found £20 million for ultrafast broadband in Northern Ireland and £10 million for full-fibre broadband in six trial areas of England and Scotland. We are missing out on important things such as this and we cannot rely on Westminster to look after our needs. The Government’s justification for their broadband investment was that it will trigger the most effective short-term economic growth. Therein lies the central weakness of the Westminster approach: its short-termism and its links to political returns, as we have seen in the context of Northern Ireland.

The EU has been a major source of assistance to Wales, not least in terms of our economic infrastructure. The ERDF and the European Social Fund have been mentioned. Areas of England such as Merseyside, South Yorkshire and Cornwall have certainly benefited greatly from the EU as well. We will miss out all round when we turn our backs on Europe.

In the context of the amendment, we have a right to know how the Government intend to sustain the EU objectives of Article 174 after Brexit—if indeed they do. We are told that there will be a shared prosperity fund, but we have no details of its size or remit, nor how it will work with devolved government. In particular, given our experience in Wales with the Barnett formula, which has been such a travesty—and has been recognised by this House as a travesty—we have enormous reservations about leaving it to the Treasury in Whitehall to be the adjudicator in the distribution of such resources. It is for these reasons that I support the amendment, and I am certain that we shall have to return to these critical issues later in the Bill’s passage.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Goldie]

The noble Lord would not expect me to be able to deliver specific information on figures. That would be unreasonable, but he knows that the Government fought an election on a manifesto commitment to replace the cohesion policy. I am outlining the structures on which the Government propose to base replacing that cohesion policy. I am trying to outline how that strategy has been constructed to have regard to the whole of the United Kingdom and to deal with the issues about which the noble Lord has expressed concern in his amendment.

[Lord Judd]

The noble Baroness says it is unreasonable to expect figures, and there is a certain amount of sympathy with her on that. However, is she really telling us that she cannot guarantee that any projects in train, those planned on the basis of agreements, or any undertakings will be fulfilled?

[Baroness Goldie]

I heard what the noble Lord said and I am coming to that; I hope what I am about to say will reassure him. I am explaining what the new proposals and structures are in order to give some context to my response to what is a very important amendment. The amendment also refers to rural areas. The Committee will be aware that my noble friend Lord Gardiner is the Government’s rural ambassador. He is working to ensure that government policy is addressing the challenges faced by rural areas. The House will recall that the noble Lord, Lord Cameron of Dillington, carried out a review in 2015 on the effectiveness of the Government’s rural-proofing policy, to which the Government responded. They have taken action based on his recommendations. That now includes practical guidance published by Defra to ensure that government departments make rural issues a routine policy consideration.

Looking beyond England, the devolved Administrations obviously have responsibility for rural policy, and I know that Scottish and Welsh Ministers will be thinking about how to ensure that their own policies and initiatives reflect the needs of rural communities. The Government’s industrial strategy and other existing policy initiatives therefore already cover the areas covered by the EU cohesion policy, which the noble Lord’s amendment seeks to preserve.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Lord Judd Excerpts

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Wednesday 21st February 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Altmann (Con)]

My Lords, I support these amendments and echo the words of the noble Lords, Lord Hunt, Lord Warner, Lord Teverson and Lord Carlile, from these Benches. This has nothing to do with the referendum: this is not the will of the people. We do not legally need to leave Euratom, as we have heard so many times this evening, if we leave the EU. It is not as though we asked the British people, “Do you want to leave Euratom; do you want to spend millions of pounds of taxpayers’ money to put ourselves back in precisely the position we are now, we hope; to basically reinvent the wheel; to incur huge costs and take huge risks in undermining our world-leading position in nuclear research?”

We may not be able to do this in time: we may not be able to find enough skilled people. Indeed, when we spoke with figures in the nuclear industry a few months ago, they informed us that the first they heard of the Government having decided to leave Euratom was when they read the announcement: there was no consultation with the industry on an issue of such monumental importance. What is the cost and what benefit will be achieved for incurring those costs? I urge my noble friend the Minister to relay to his department the tone of the House—that many of us on these Benches would welcome an admission that this decision is unnecessary. It risks our energy security, safety and public health and we do not need to take this risk. Let us withdraw our notification to leave Euratom.

[Lord Judd (Lab)]

My Lords, like my noble friend Lord Liddle I live in Cumbria and these issues are central for the people of Cumbria. In the wider context of all these things we are discussing, we are not expressly taking the point that it is not just in our political lifetime that the consequences will be felt. That is the gravity of the situation. The implications could reach for hundreds or thousands of years ahead. It is impossible to overstress the significance of the issues with which we are dealing. My noble friend was absolutely right to talk about the irresponsibility of discussing them at this time of night instead of at prime time in the parliamentary timetable. We ought to be ashamed of ourselves: how on earth can we convince people that we are properly scrutinising if we are pushing things through late at night?

In his amendments, with which I am associated, my noble friend Lord Whitty is bringing out very clearly yet again the cavalier, ill-prepared position of the Government as we race towards the conclusion of the negotiations. We have had reference to it in various discussions today. How on earth can all the points that have been raised by my noble friend’s amendments be met in the time available?

There is another crucial point. As my noble friend Lord Liddle said, we will be going ahead with our next generation of nuclear energy only with expertise from abroad. Can the Minister explain to us, very specifically, how we will have the people qualified to undertake inspections of the standard of Euratom if we have not got that kind of expertise available within British society for the development of our next phase of nuclear energy? How can we be lacking in that when it comes to the task itself and then say we can somehow inspect the task? Where are these people with the right qualifications going to come from? We need specific reassurances from the Government on that point.

[Lord Adonis]

My Lords, there are 101 reasons why people voted for or against leaving the European Union. As the great Lord Salisbury, the last Prime Minister to serve in this House, famously said after a general election, the problem is:

“When the great oracle speaks, we are never quite certain what the great oracle said”.


However, I have not yet met a single person in any walk of life anywhere who told me that they voted to leave the European Union so that they could leave Euratom. Indeed, I imagine that there were not many people outside the confines of your Lordships’ House and the nuclear industry who were even aware that there was this organisation called Euratom, where the final court of appeal was—wait for it—the European Court of Justice.

There is always a problem about loss of face. I have sat on that Bench, too. I know that Ministers do not like having to change their mind. But I do not think the Minister will have any problem with any loss of face with anyone, including those who have been so keen to see that we leave the European Union because of the instruction from the British people, if he were to announce that the Government intend to withdraw the notice under Article 106a of the Euratom treaty and put this complete nonsense behind them. I do not mind what hour of the night he announces it. I would be perfectly happy for him to announce it at 2.30 am if that ensures that it gets less coverage.

The Minister will have noticed that there has been no support at all from behind him. The noble Earl, who is not given to criticising the Government, made a devastating speech. Although the noble Viscount said that he thought the consequences might not be as bad as people had said, I did not detect him saying there would be any positive advantages from leaving Euratom. The noble Baroness gave an equally devastating speech.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Lord Judd Excerpts

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 21st February 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Judd (Lab)]

Would my noble friend not agree that perhaps the most irresponsible aspect of the remarks that have been made in this debate on Ireland is that painstaking work has gone on for a number of years now in building trust between two communities, with those communities beginning to establish a tradition of working together?

[Lord Adonis]

My Lords, I could not agree more with my noble friend, nor with all those other noble Lords who have responsibility for Northern Ireland, or have held it in the past, including the noble Lord, Lord Patten, my noble friends Lord Hain and Lady Kennedy, and the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, not least in his role as reviewer of terrorism legislation. Everyone who has been engaged in this sees the continuing value of the Northern Ireland agreement. It is a solemn undertaking on the part of the United Kingdom. It is an international treaty. Playing fast and loose with peace in Northern Ireland in the cause of Brexit is utterly reprehensible.

We are looking forward to the Minister’s reply. I know that he has a mountain of amendments to reply to, but I am afraid that is the fault of the people whose responsibility it is to group them, who seem to want to group almost everything in the Bill into one group. I hope that when he replies he will begin by saying from the Dispatch Box that the Government remain committed to the Good Friday agreement, that they wish to see the restoration of devolved government in Northern Ireland, and that the Government will use every endeavour to do that and to ensure, as the Prime Minister also said in solemn undertakings at the end of last year, that all of the commitments that the Government of the United Kingdom reach in respect of Brexit will fully honour the Good Friday agreement. I take the amendments that we will discuss later, which my noble friend Lord Hain and others have tabled, which would enshrine a commitment to abide by the Good Friday agreement in the text of the Bill, to be immensely important to our consideration of the Bill, particularly in the light of comments made in the last week.

My amendments focus on two particular areas where I seek the Minister’s guidance, because we have many long debates to come, and we need to establish a good evidence base as we do so. I take to heart the words of the Minister for Exiting the European Union, Mr Baker, when the House of Commons was considering the Bill—I was glad to see him at the Bar earlier—and he said:

“The Government have always been clear that the purpose of the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill is to ensure that the UK exits the EU with certainty, continuity and control”.—[Official Report, Commons, 14/11/17; col. 206.]


We can have certainty, continuity and control only if we know what will happen as a consequence of enacting the Bill.

Therefore, there are two areas that I particularly wish to probe the Minister on. The first is the extremely important issue raised by the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, about the status of the European Economic Area and our membership of it. There is a debate that will range far and wide across our consideration of this Bill and future Bills as to what is the right status for the United Kingdom if and when we leave the European Union: whether we should be in the EEA, or in the customs union but not the single market, or in the single market but not the customs union; whether we should have bespoke trade arrangements, or whether we should belong to a customs union but not the customs union. The Schleswig-Holstein question was positively simple in comparison with the options and complexity of the options on offer but for our role as legislators, it is crucial that we understand the consequences of decisions that we take in respect of the Bill when we enact it. In many crucial areas—having read, as many other noble Lords will have done, all the debates in the House of Commons on the Bill—it is still unclear what will be the legal position in key respects after the enactment of the Bill.

The issue raised by the noble Baroness, Lady McIntosh, is of acute concern in this respect. The question that I hope the Minister will address himself to is: what is the procedure under which the United Kingdom will leave the European Economic Area if and when we leave the European Union? The noble Lord, Lord Owen, who I am sorry to say is not in his place this afternoon, has written, with help from serious lawyers—including, I think, one or two in this House—a very long and learned paper on precisely this issue. It says that there are two very different views as to what the position is, partly because the EEA agreement is itself ambiguous about the nature of the relationship between the European Union and the European Economic Area.

The European Union is itself a contracting party to the EEA agreement and on one reading—I am now going into areas where, seeing so many lawyers around me, I am waiting for them to leap in at any moment, but the definitive view from the Government is going to be important here—it is therefore not possible for those states which leave the European Union to remain a party to the EEA agreement. On another reading of the treaty, Her Majesty the Queen is the signatory to the treaty independently of the United Kingdom’s membership of the European Union, and we would therefore continue to be members of the EEA when we leave the European Union. As a layman in these matters, this looks to me to be an issue of huge consequence. When and if we leave the European Union on 29 March next year, do we or do we not continue as a member of the EEA simply by virtue of leaving the European Union? If we do not leave the EEA, what is the procedure under which we do leave the EEA? Does it require a vote, does it require legislation, or are the Government proposing that it should be done by the royal prerogative? These are big issues and I hope the Minister can address himself to them, because they will have a significant bearing on amendments we raise later in Committee and on Report.

The second issue concerning withdrawal from the European Union, which is what the half of the Bill that we are substantially debating at the moment is about, is whether it is necessary to withdraw from the entirety of the European Communities Act 1972, or whether it is in fact legally possible—or what would be the consequences of deciding—to withdraw from some parts but not from others. This is an issue of such importance because of the customs arrangements enshrined in Part 2, Section 5 of the 1972 Act, which sets out all the arrangements under which the United Kingdom agrees to abide by customs rules set by the European Union. That is, as I read it, a large part but not the entirety of our membership of the customs union.

The question that was raised in the House of Commons but not properly debated, and that looks to me to be of significance to our debates going forward, is about not disapplying the customs clauses of the 1972 Act— Part 2, Section 5, and the appropriate schedules. If they remained in force and we repealed the rest of the Act but not those—by virtue of that fact, subject of course to an agreement with the European Union itself, we would remain in the customs union. Again, in terms of the legal means by which we might secure the objective which many noble Lords wish to see, continuing membership of the customs union and single market, that is a point of great significance.

Finally, in terms of the objectives we are seeking to achieve, in her Lancaster House speech, the second of the two significant speeches she has given on government policy in respect of Brexit, the Prime Minister, addressing our European partners, said:

“The decision to leave the EU represents no desire to become more distant to you, our friends and neighbours … We do not want to turn the clock back to the days when Europe was less peaceful, less secure and less able to trade freely”.


In my view it is impossible to see how we can have a Europe which maintains peace unless we start with peace within our own borders, which must mean peace guaranteed in Northern Ireland, hence the centrality of the Good Friday agreement to our consideration of the Bill. When it comes to,

“less able to trade freely”,

I take that to mean not entering into any trade arrangements which are less advantageous for this country and involve any more border controls than currently apply. I look forward to the Minister explaining to the Committee how leaving the customs union and the single market can make it easier for us to trade than the extremely advantageous arrangement we currently have as a member of the European Union.

UK and EU Relations

Lord Judd Excerpts

Tuesday 12th September 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Judd (Lab)]

Meanwhile, my Lords, in the real world very many people in industry, commerce, business and universities, and not least countless ordinary families, are waiting for some kind of certainty about where their future lies. They have to plan and make arrangements for the future but at the moment that is just not possible.

Nowhere is that more important than in the sphere of law. I serve on the Justice Sub-Committee. We took evidence on civil law and listened to very distinguished barristers in this country. I was quite moved when, one morning, they broke off and said, “Look, what we want to say to you as a committee is not in our selfish commercial and financial interests. There are a lot of families who cross borders and a great number of broken families. There has been a real problem with the children of broken families, with one country giving a verdict on their future but one of the partners rushing off to get a verdict elsewhere. For the first time, we are beginning to work in a sane, constructive atmosphere in which a verdict given on the future of children will run across frontiers”. What are we doing? Cross-border realities are the nature of life in Britain.

On Ireland, a great deal has been said but I want to say only this. Fixing the Irish problem is not just a technicality; it has been a peacebuilding process. People have been engaged in building a new future for Ireland. If we jeopardise that, history will never forgive us.

I am afraid that there has been a fundamental flaw in Britain’s relationship with the Community from the very beginning—right from the time of the European Coal and Steel Community, when we were not a member. We have always insisted on looking at it as a financial or commercial arrangement, but the driving force behind it has not been financial or commercial arrangements; it has been the political objective of a stable and peaceful Europe. Our failure, intellectually and emotionally, to engage in that process of building Europe has meant that we have not built up a great well of good will towards us. I was a Minister for Europe a long way back and I know that we are seen as always being concerned about what we can get out of it, as distinct from what we can contribute to it. That is a cultural difference and, if I may say so, a moral challenge that we have to face.

In conclusion, in the face of the world as it is, we have no alternative but to regenerate a good working relationship with Europe. Whether it be terrorism, events in south-east Asia and Burma, the Korean peninsula or the United States, or climate change and an accelerating increase in the flow of refugees across the world, there is no way that we can face those things without working with our European partners. We have to generate a sense of joint commitment with Europe on these matters. If we do that, we can then approach together much more constructively the practical challenge of how we organise ourselves.

Brexit: European Union-derived Rights

Lord Judd Excerpts

Tuesday 4th April 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Lea of Crondall (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Newnham, has raised a key question for the Minister to respond to. The principle of nothing being agreed until everything is agreed is now questionable. There is a contradiction on the reciprocity and simultaneity of citizenship and rights in a document to which Mr Tusk and Mr Barnier are both party. Paragraph 2 states that,

“nothing is agreed until everything is agreed”,

but paragraph 8 states that:

“Agreeing reciprocal guarantees to settle the status and situations at the date of withdrawal of EU and UK citizens, and their families, affected by the United Kingdom’s withdrawal from the Union will be a matter of priority for the negotiations”.


On the issue of process, one has to conclude that there is confusion about the timescale, not only in the British Government but also—dare I say it—in Brussels. If there is confusion in Brussels, do we write a public letter saying, “Your statement says x, y, z; we say a, b, c”? Is there a protocol that has not been agreed about how these negotiations must be conducted in secret? You cannot have things being agreed ad hoc without some clarity and transparency so that we can all have a look at them. I agree with both Motions, but it is not just a question of nothing happening until the end of two years. I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Newnham, who made the same point.

[Lord Judd (Lab)]

My Lords, two issues have concerned me throughout recent developments. The first is that this is not a hypothetical or theoretical question. Already in industry, commerce, the university world and other aspects of life, planning is being disrupted by uncertainty about the future availability of personnel. There is an urgent, administrative, economic reason to resolve this issue. Secondly, I am disturbed because, in the very good secondary education which I was fortunate to have, I came to understand the importance of citizenship in a modern civilised society. Many people who have established themselves in this country and who saw a future for themselves and their family here have been sustained by the concept that they had European citizenship. Speaking with knowledge from my own family, people who went to live or establish themselves elsewhere in the European Union had the same concept of citizenship. By our unilateral action in removing ourselves from the European Community we are depriving these people of citizenship. According to the education which I was privileged to receive, that is a very serious matter indeed. On those grounds it is, therefore, essential to resolve this issue rapidly.

In his very good speech, the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, put the issue of the arrangements very well. We were being told constantly that there was going to be a return of power to our own society. But in our society power lies in Parliament. As he said, Ministers are accountable to Parliament and Parliament is accountable to the people. It therefore behoves us to make it very clear and certain—not least to ourselves—what the procedures will be by which we thoroughly review progress. It is not just a case of saying, “We should review progress and we have to have some arrangements”. We have to have very clear arrangements for how we will review progress.

I have been around in Parliament now, in one way or another, for 39 years. There is a way in which we, as it were, adopt a procedure which will satisfy us, our consciences and our approach to the public that we have a procedure. I say to all my colleagues—to my friends on both sides of the House—that we are not playing games. If we have this procedure, we must take it very seriously indeed. We must not have a situation in which debate is rushed, truncated or rationed. There has to be an opportunity to debate and deliberate fully so that we can reassure the public on these matters. I am absolutely certain that if we are to be a parliamentary democracy—I sometimes wonder about this—we have no alternative than the resolutions that are put before us.

There is another thing which I know does not go down well with a lot of people. I totally accept that we in Parliament framed the arrangements for the referendum. I know that we had no threshold of our own volition, but I find it very difficult when I am constantly being told that the will of the people has been expressed. I do not know what this means. A majority voted in favour of the broad position, but there was certainly not a majority of the electorate positively in favour of this position. I am not suggesting that we do other than accept what we did, and we have to live with the results. Having said that, it seems to me to increase even more the moral and real responsibility of Parliament to look to the interests of the whole population in evaluating what is proposed in the negotiations. It is not just a case of the interests of the people who won the referendum but the interests of the whole people. We have that responsibility.

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB)]

My Lords, my first point echoes nicely the noble Lord, Lord Judd, in that a prime example of the uncertainty facing EU nationals is to be found in the world of music and other artistic institutions and places of learning. Many professional and visiting professional posts are filled, vitally, by artists from the EU. They enrich our lives immeasurably. Indeed, this artistic intercourse—it is true of the world of science too—is absolutely vital to intellectual exchange, innovation and excellence. I understand that the Minister will not be able to unravel this this evening, he will be glad to hear me say. However, like the noble Lord, Lord Judd, I would be grateful if the Government placed high in their priorities the concept of giving some kind of lead to our great institutions of learning, so that they can fill these professorial posts with people of the quality that our country needs and deserves.

European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Bill

Lord Judd Excerpts

Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 1st March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness (LD)]

This has been a wide-ranging debate. I put my name to Amendment 34. The fishing industry is important; part of the problem is that people have too often tried to shut the fishing industry up, when it has had genuine concerns about the way the common fisheries policy has operated over many years. Indeed, there are concerns now that in the Brexit negotiations it might yet be forgotten about.

I had the privilege of representing for 18 years in the House of Commons and for eight years in the Scottish Parliament a constituency which had many fishing communities. I am aware that there was a concern as to what happened when Britain entered the European Union and that the interests of the fishing industry were sold short. It was a belief that, when the papers were subsequently released under the 30-year rule, was proved to have some substance. A briefing note from the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries for Scotland in the early 1970s warned:

“In short, at present it is much easier to see the drawbacks for our fishermen likely to be involved in the Common Fisheries Policy than to be at all positive that there will be benefits to offset, let alone outweigh them”.


The amendment that my noble friend Lord Bruce of Bennachie and I have put forward is intended to try to ensure that some way or other there will be an engagement of the devolved legislatures in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland to help allay some of these concerns.

The House has had the benefit of a very good and well-informed report on Brexit and fisheries from the EU Energy and Environment Sub-Committee, chaired by my noble friend Lord Teverson. It makes clear the complexities of untangling the United Kingdom from the common fisheries policy and the need for agreement. For example, my noble friend Lord Teverson said in Grand Committee on 16 January that,

“the moment we leave the European Union, the EEZ will become our exclusive economic zone, exactly as it says on the tin. There will be no automatic right for us to fish in other people’s EEZs; nor will there be any automatic right for other nation states to fish in ours. We will be excluded immediately, if we have not renegotiated access, from agreements with Iceland, Norway and the Faroes, which are particularly important to our Scottish fleets”.—[Official Report, 16/1/17; col. GC 1.]

It is not academic. Important negotiations will have to take place about the future of our fisheries, not only in terms of fishing opportunities but in terms of our trade in fish. It is said that we export the majority of fish caught by our UK vessels and import the majority of fish that we eat. Measured by volume, 49% of our domestic production is exported to the European Union and 32% of the imports that we eat are from the European Union. Fishing will be an important part of these negotiations in terms of catching opportunities and in terms of trade, not only for the fishermen in the immediate area but for the fish processors and all who are dependent on the fishing industry.

In terms of our total United Kingdom GDP, the fishing industry does not loom very large, but in terms of the many communities around our coast in Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and many parts of England it is important. I remember taking part in the annual debate on fisheries in the House of Commons where it was clear from the wide range of people who took part the importance to many communities of the fishing industry. Therefore, it is important we focus on this and that we give the devolved Administrations, Parliaments and Assemblies an opportunity for involvement.

In replying to the debate on 16 January, the noble Lord, Lord Gardiner of Kimble, said:

“Obviously, we must work—and are working—as closely as we have always done with our colleagues in the devolved Administrations and Crown dependencies as we develop our positions, and will ensure that their views are fully taken into account as negotiations move forward”.—[Official Report, 16/1/17; col. 29.]


I do not expect the Minister to have the answer tonight so he can write to me, but can he tell us up until now what discussions have taken place at official and ministerial level on fisheries with the respective devolved Administrations? As I said, it is a small part of our GDP but vital for our many coastal communities and it is vital that their interests are advanced and safeguarded as we go forward into these negotiations.

[Lord Judd (Lab)]

My Lords—

[Noble Lords]

Minister!

[Lord Judd]

My Lords—

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

My Lords, I think that the view of the Committee is probably that we should continue and that I should try to wrap this up.

[Lord Judd]

My Lords—

[Noble Lords]

Minister! Order!

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

I think that there is a consensus that we should allow the Minister to address the Committee.

[Lord Judd]

My Lords—

[Noble Lords]

Order!

European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Bill

Lord Judd Excerpts

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 27th February 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

The noble Baroness and I have many interesting discussions, but I dispute the grounds on which she is approaching this. We have set out very clearly, to provide clarity and certainty, a view regarding what we wish to achieve in the negotiations. That has provided a considerable amount of certainty and clarity to many of the businesses I have spoken to and in nation states across Europe. That is exactly what we now need to deliver on.

I will turn quickly to the issue of parliamentary scrutiny, which the noble Lord, Lord Newby, slightly dismissed. Parliament will be heavily involved in the process of our leaving the EU. This Bill, the Bill to repeal the European Communities Act 1972, primary and secondary legislation, Statements, Select Committee appearances—the list is quite long. On top of that, the Government will bring forward a Motion on the final agreement to be approved by both Houses of Parliament before it is concluded. So the nub of the matter is very simple. On 23 June people voted to leave the EU. It was a choice that this Parliament gave them and it is a decision that, now it has been made, we must obey. So I hope that the noble Lord will withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Judd (Lab)]

The Minister has deployed with great moral strength the argument that the people have spoken. I remind him that the majority of those who voted have spoken—but, in fact, barely a third of the potential electorate in Britain voted. The situation is not as absolute as he suggests. I say to your Lordships that this is a very good reason for taking very seriously the argument that the road of referenda is a very dangerous road indeed.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, the Minister said a moment ago that the decision will come back to both Houses after there has been an outcome to the negotiation. What if both Houses reject the negotiated settlement that is forthcoming? Does Parliament then overrule the people or do the people have a chance to make the final decision?

European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Bill

Lord Judd Excerpts

2nd reading (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Tuesday 21st February 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Judd (Lab)]

My Lords, there is a very strong argument that the constitution belongs to the people and that we and our friends in the other place are practitioners within that constitution. We have one of the biggest decisions to have faced Parliament for many years, and the challenge to get on with our responsibility as practitioners is a heavy one. We in this House have become very good at scrutiny. Our job will be to take scrutiny seriously, to look at the implications and consequences of what is proposed and contribute our findings to the public debate.

Looking at the situation in the other place, I must say that I am one of those who is disappointed, because the strength of British democracy has very much relied on its representative nature, individual responsibility and the role of the individual conscience of Members of Parliament. I find it extraordinary that there has been a sort of herd action in the other place which seems to have said that our conscience—what we know to be right—must be put on one side because we must bow to the will of the people. It is not that we are not bowing to the will of the people; it is enabling the people to understand, as the practitioners we are, the real implications of what is happening. We must take that seriously.

There has been a good deal of talk in this debate about taking the 48% seriously, but there is another statistic that we must never discount. Only 37% of the electorate actually voted for Brexit. That is hardly an indication of the overwhelming popular will; it is an indication that some highly motivated people mobilised their case well and effectively.

Of course the consequences of coming out of the single market will be far reaching across so much of our lives, and it will be unthinkable for Parliament not to establish how the Government propose to deal with the consequences. It is an abandonment of responsibility; this is what Parliament is here to do—to find out what the Government are proposing and how far they will look to the well-being and interests of the people.

On Ireland, we are playing with fire, almost literally. We must know from the Government how they are going to meet the new challenges of potentially a border between Northern Ireland and the European Union in Ireland, and what the consequences politically and in any other dramatic ways might be.

My noble friend Lord Grocott, who is an old friend, said that the people feel we have lost touch. That is because we have allowed ourselves as a political community to become elitist and inclusive, and have failed to communicate with the public as we should by explaining to them why issues matter and why legislation is being introduced in response to what matters.

The issue will not go away. We are in a highly interdependent world. We need ways in which to co-operate with others to meet almost every challenge that faces us, our children and grandchildren. That is true of climate change and the environment. There is no way in which to protect the environment or respond to climate change on our own. It is also true of security and terrorism, as we have heard clearly in this debate. It is true also in the operation of justice and legal co-operation. I serve on the European Justice Sub-Committee and it has been striking to hear distinguished lawyers explain how so much law now crosses borders and how useful practice is being implemented all the time, enabling lawyers to meet their responsibilities to their clients. That is strong in, for example, the sphere of children, when there are broken families and so on, and making sure that children can be properly protected. That is getting better year by year, and we are in danger of throwing that away. How are we going to meet that situation? Interdependence is also there in the case of learning and knowledge, as we have seen with universities. We can have effective universities only if they are part of international communities that in every sense of their operation reflect the challenges of the world and the way in which we must work together.

I am sure that when we have done our work in Parliament, which we must take seriously, it would be unthinkable not to have put before the British people again the outcomes of what we have discovered and are finding. We owe it to them. What on earth are we talking about when we refer to democracy and responsibility if we do all this work, and then make a decision in the inclusive club of Parliament that we do not put to the people?

UK Withdrawal from the EU and Potential Withdrawal from the Single Market

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Thursday 26th January 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Judd (Lab)]

My Lords, there is a very strong consensus emerging in the House; I find myself in total agreement with the last two speakers, and I am very glad to follow what they said. I also have the joy of serving on the EU Justice Committee, chaired so well by my noble friend Lady Kennedy of The Shaws. She will remember, as indeed will the noble Lord, Lord Oates, that when we were taking evidence from the French ambassador, there was a very telling moment—a moment for real thought. She was asked what she was encountering in the French community as a response to what has happened. She said very clearly that what is sad is that the people from France felt that they were part of Britain, enjoyed being here and felt that they were part of the community and belonged to it, but now they feel that they are strangers. I think that this deserves a great deal of thought. What are we doing to British society?

In my education at school, let alone later in life, I learned about the importance of citizenship, going right back to the classic Roman and Greek times. Citizenship is something very profound. When this country became part of the Maastricht treaty, people in the European Union had dual citizenship: European citizenship with all that went with that, and citizenship of their own country. Unilaterally, we have removed from our people living abroad and from European citizens living here that status of dual citizenship. They have lost the rights that they believed they had inherited in the situation to which we had come as a free party. I did not hear any evidence from what we heard in our committee that there was any indication whatever at the time that they became European citizens that it was clear to people that it was a conditional citizenship. We have removed their European citizenship.

I would be a much happier man if the message that was going out from this House and Parliament as a whole was “thank you” to the people who have come and contributed and committed their lives to this country—thank you to those in the health service; thank you to those in education, both in schools and universities; thank you to those who have contributed so well to commerce; thank you to those who joined the community, participated and enriched the life of our country by bringing different cultures with them. Thank you—we are absolutely determined that we will preserve your security and well-being into the future, whatever it takes. All this business of turning them into pawns and nothing more than a bargaining counter is totally unworthy of a Britain worth living in.

Council of the European Union: UK Presidency

Lord Judd Excerpts

Tuesday 19th July 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

We will play a full role, exercising the rights and observing the responsibilities that membership brings. However, on the presidency itself, I have nothing further to say now.

[Lord Judd (Lab)]

My Lords, is there not another consideration that demands urgency in the Government’s decision? Should we decide not to take the presidency, there will be an awful lot of preparatory work to be done by whichever country has that responsibility. Are we completely egocentric?

[Lord Bridges of Headley]

No, my Lords. The noble Lord also speaks with a lot of experience on these matters. That is exactly why we need to make this decision in a timely manner and after due consideration of all the points that have been raised this afternoon.