Trade Agreements

Lord Judd Excerpts

Tuesday 14th July 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Grimstone of Boscobel]

My Lords, the noble Baroness makes a very good point. Not just for ourselves but for the generations coming after us, we all rightly attach huge importance to these matters. We will make sure that they are taken fully into account in our negotiations.

[Lord Judd (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, my noble friend Lord Haskel’s important Question raises the intended and unintended consequences of trade deals and their implications for the vulnerable, not only in our own society—where the problem is acute enough—but among the poor of the world. Can the Minister give us an assurance that, in the new combined department, those Ministers and officials with specific responsibilities for development and overseas relations will each have a part to play in ensuring that the well-being of the international community, and the vulnerable within it, is safeguarded in any trade deals?

[Lord Grimstone of Boscobel]

My Lords, the noble Lord makes a good point. We work closely with our colleagues in other departments to ensure that those matters are fully taken into account. My belief is that the new changes to the machinery of government will make our voice even more effective in these matters at the country level.

Saudi Arabia: Arms Sales

Lord Judd Excerpts

Friday 10th July 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Grimstone of Boscobel]

Both personally and as a Minister I remain deeply concerned about the human rights situation in Yemen. I think it is important that we continue to work with all parties to find a political solution to the conflict. This will help create the conditions for the legitimate Government to improve their capacity to protect human rights. Yemen is a human rights priority country for the UK.

[Lord Judd (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, the Government have gained considerable credit recently for toughening up sanctions and for their willingness to apply those sanctions in the context of human rights abuses. Do the Government understand that real credit will be established—otherwise cynicism, bitterness and dissolution will take its place—only if they apply themselves with equal vigour to the protection of countless ordinary people who are being subjected to suppression and oppression in Saudi Arabia and Yemen?

[Lord Grimstone of Boscobel]

First, I acknowledge the noble Lord’s obvious deeply felt concern about this matter. The UK and Saudi have a long-standing bilateral relationship based on a number of pillars, including trade, defence, security, energy and shared concern about regional issues. Matters are changing in Saudi Arabia. We have seen progress on social reforms under Saudi Vision 2030. For example, the Saudi economy was the most improved for women’s economic opportunities, according to the recent World Bank report, Women, Business and the Law—so things are happening there and I think it is right for us to encourage that process of change in Saudi Arabia.

British Steel

Lord Judd Excerpts

Wednesday 22nd May 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Henley]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for making that point. I do not know whether he was able to hear the Secretary of State make his Statement in another place, but certainly my right honourable friend referred to individuals among the trade unions with whom he and other ministerial colleagues have had considerable dealings. He wants to continue to have those dealings and is the first to say that this is a matter where—as he said—we want to continue to talk and work with everyone involved. On this occasion, that includes the trade unions.

[Lord Judd (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister has said that he would hope there are alternative facilities available for the manufacturers of steel should the worst happen. That is really not good enough. If we are aiming to be an independent nation, with a strong, strategic role in the world in our defence arrangements, steel is absolutely central to all we are planning to do. We need a strategic approach to the steel industry which is included not only in our planning for an industrial strategy but in our planning for a defence strategy. We cannot drift along like this. We need to see some muscular, convincing arguments from the Government that show they have taken all this on board and are determined to develop the necessary strategies.

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord up to a point. I am sure he would be the first to accept that, in the modern world that we live in, it is frequently wise to buy certain things from abroad because other people can produce them better or more cheaply. Obviously, one always has to take into account the strategic considerations that the noble Lord raises. But there is no point trying to produce absolutely everything oneself, probably at greater cost and less effectively.

Reducing Greenhouse Gas Emissions

Lord Judd Excerpts

Thursday 2nd May 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Judd (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank most warmly my noble friend Lord Rooker for his powerful introduction to the debate and his consistent and ongoing work in this area. It is also important to take this opportunity to put on record our cross-Floor appreciation of the unremitting and passionate commitment of the noble Lord, Lord Deben, in this sphere, as well as of the similarly total commitment and enthusiasm of my noble friend Lord Prescott.

It is sometimes important in debates to listen to other people, not just ourselves in this House. The leadership provided by Greta Thunberg has impressed us all, and has been there in the leadership of so many members of civil society for a number of years. I quote Christian Aid:

“There is a global climate emergency. Climate change, which has been largely caused by developed countries, is wreaking havoc in many developing countries. Many are forced to declare a state of emergency due to extreme weather and climate impacts, such as Mozambique in the aftermath of”,


repeated cyclones.

“Climate change is now the biggest factor setting back efforts to end poverty. Extreme weather and climate impacts hit every populated continent in 2018, killing, injuring and displacing many millions of people, and causing major economic damage. 2018 was the fourth-hottest year on record, with average global temperatures nearly 1°C above the pre-industrial average. Current international pledges to cut emissions place us on track for around 3°C of warming—which could have a catastrophic impact. Climate injustice is rampant: richer countries have continued to delay the necessary action and defended incumbent industries and vested interests such as the fossil fuel sector. Meanwhile demands by developing countries for more finance and technology have been largely ignored. Climate finance is not a matter of aid but a matter of justice to repay the debts owed from using up the global carbon budget”,


in our industrial revolutions in the past. It continues:

“Averting further serious impacts of climate change requires an urgent, rapid, and large-scale response by governments all around the world, action and investment which are tantamount to a state of emergency. A state of emergency is justified: the usual politics of incremental change is not enough to cut GHG emissions fast enough. There is massive public support in the north and global south for rapid, large scale action to protect the environment. Politicians must wake up”.


They are right. Indeed, the Secretary-General of the UN himself was right when he spoke out so strongly last year, reminding us of our responsibility to take international action. If we hear nothing else from the Minister in his response today, I hope that he will make a reassuring and convincing case that the arrangements for an emergency are in fact being put in place across government and that all departments are being encouraged to see their role and to play a full and active part in bringing together the essential aggregated policy that will require the mobilisation of the Government as a whole.

Others have spoken of their grandchildren. I will say only this: when I look at my grandsons and granddaughter, and when I think of the generations beyond, I do not know how we can face them unless we take action. What my noble friend Lord Rooker said in opening this debate is crucially important. This is no longer the time for expressions of good intentions and moral conviction; this is the time for action and we need to see it taking place. We have heard from my noble friend that the arrangements and the policies necessary to fulfil what should be done are in place. It is now a matter of putting them into action.

Brexit: Consumer Protection (European Union Committee Report)

Lord Judd Excerpts

Wednesday 16th January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Judd (Lab)]

My Lords, as a Member of the committee I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Kennedy of The Shaws, for the report and the way in which she introduced it. Hers is a good committee to belong to. I have been on a number in my life, but never on one in which it is possible to enjoy the proceedings so much. It is a very lively committee. We have a chair who understands leadership; she certainly has views, but she knows how to listen, and the art of leadership is to listen and bring people together. What is remarkable about this group is that we are a group together, and I unashamedly take this opportunity to say thank you to the noble Baroness.

I also thank all the witnesses; reports depend very much upon their quality, and we have had some first-class discussions with witnesses, not least in this field. We are also served by outstanding staff and legal advisers, who sometimes have to be tolerant of our idiosyncratic ways of handling things in our committee, but who fit in well and are very effective. Again, they have my real appreciation.

A great deal of sadness is brought out in this report, as has been emphasised in other spheres—not least security, which we have just been discussing. British leadership has been critical to the evolution of what is working very satisfactorily and well in Europe. To see so much positive and dedicated work by British people in the evolution of European policy being cast aside is certainly a matter of sadness.

It is clear that, whatever transpires, co-operation will remain essential. It cannot produce results as effective as the integrated approach which has emerged, but it will be essential. With the greatest possible respect to the Minister, we have not seen any convincing evidence at all about what the specific lines of co-operation will be and the kind of direction the Government will be giving in that context.

Similarly, the regulation has worked well. Among a lot of consumer organisations in this country there is a great deal of respect for the regulation and how it has emerged and is working. We will need to have new forms of regulation, and of course they will not be as complete or as effective as what we have had in place. We are still very unclear about what will be the protection for UK consumers when they are working, living or holidaying in Europe, or what will be the position of businesses.

It is a sad experience to have to consider a report of this kind, when we are seeing so much of something which is so central to life and the well-being and smooth operation of society as this area is being jeopardised without yet any clear indication of what we will have. I find it exasperating that there is no clear evidence of how we can begin to think we will better serve the British people outside Europe than within it.

Draft National Policy Statement for Geological Disposal Infrastructure

Lord Judd Excerpts

Thursday 6th September 2018 Grand Committee

[Lord Judd (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that introduction. Perhaps I may say at the outset how grateful I am to his officials for being so ready to talk to me and discuss the issues at stake. That has been very helpful. I think that we should also put on the record our thanks to the staff of the Library who have produced, even by their own standards, which are very high, the most clear and concise briefing on these matters. It really is a very good summary of the situation. I should declare my interests as I am a resident of the Lake District National Park in west Cumbria, a former president of the Friends of the Lake District and currently a patron, a vice-president of the Campaign for National Parks, and indeed a supporter of the Cumbria Trust.

What we are discussing in the debate is an immensely significant issue and there is urgency in it. Speaking only of west Cumbria, the waste facilities at Sellafield are in a seriously deteriorating condition. The exposed five-metre storage ponds are in a disturbing state of disrepair. I sometimes wonder how much radioactive wildlife and radioactive birds are flying around in Cumbria and beyond because, of course, the ponds are open and accessible. This all has implications over the long term, indeed for many thousands of years, not only across Cumbria but for the UK as a whole, as well as for Ireland and Europe. We are now to have a new generation of nuclear power stations. If we go ahead with these, and I can certainly see the need for them, we must ensure that we are meeting the challenges.

It is important to emphasise that the waste about which we are talking is not local waste, it is national waste and therefore a national responsibility. It probably has international implications as well, which underlines the importance of facing up to the national responsibilities.

Voluntarism, which seems pretty essential to the way forward as seen by the Government, is not a concept that, so far, is recognised in planning law. Obviously, local consent and involvement are essential, but we have not been helped by what I could describe, if I was being a little unfriendly, which I do not want to be, as the ducks and drakes that have been played with this issue in the past.

Last time we had a shot at finding a way forward, the views of Copeland and Whitehaven were involved, as were those of Allerdale and of the county. It was stipulated that if any one of those bodies, let alone more, failed to endorse the project it would not go ahead. The county did not do so, so it did not go ahead and the Government honoured their undertaking.

Now, of course, the indications are that, with new arrangements, the county council may not formally be consulted as a body, whereas it might be that Copeland and Allerdale are. I simply cannot understand this, because I keep saying that it is a national responsibility and that if anything goes seriously wrong with the project it will have implications way beyond those local authorities—certainly to Cumbria as a whole but also way beyond Cumbria. Therefore, it would be helpful if the Minister could more specifically clarify what is in mind. The formal views of those with elected responsibility cannot but be crucial, but just how widely is another issue. To repeat: exactly what do the Government have in mind?

Then we come to what is said in the recommendations before us about the national parks and areas of outstanding natural beauty. As a long-standing supporter of the national parks, I think that they and the areas of outstanding natural beauty are more important today than they have ever been because of the stress, strains and pressures in modern society. It is essential to have places of quietness and of spiritual and physical renewal, in contrast to all the hurly-burly of life elsewhere. They are a precious asset in our society.

In this context, Section 62 of the Environment Act 1995 is highly relevant and the Sandford principle crucial, stating that enjoyment of the national parks,

“shall be in a manner and by such means as will leave their natural beauty unimpaired for the enjoyment of this and future generations”.

That of course refers to any proposed developments around the national parks.

It is also highly relevant that world heritage site status has been granted to the Lake District; that the Lake District has adopted a statement of outstanding universal value; and that its inclusion in a search area will undoubtedly threaten the very special status that has been conferred. Again, in this context, it is so important to hear clearly from the Minister what is proposed in detail. It cannot be overemphasised that if such developments are being proposed, there has to be a convincing survey of non-designated alternatives—and that, of course, is some 91% of the United Kingdom. Is that, or is it not, convincingly happening? It seems to me that the tendency to go ahead with developments at any national park, such as the Lake District, must depend on our being convinced that there are no alternatives elsewhere.

I have the feeling that there are others here today who can speak with more authority on such matters, but since the 1940s, west Cumbria has been seduced and groomed to a nuclear dependency, and there has been a cynical disregard of the development of a balanced economy. If, for example, west Cumbria were to be transparently and convincingly found to be the best place to have this facility—or at least the least-bad place to have it—I would unhesitatingly throw myself into doing everything possible to make sure that it was absolutely safe as can be, and protected aesthetically, environmentally and in every other way. But that just has not happened: we have not had a convincing survey. There is plenty of evidence that this is exactly the wrong place. The mountains of Cumbria are the heirs to the collision of tectonic plates 450 million years ago. With the lapse of time, it is hardly surprising that there are extensive faults and a great deal of fracturing. Combine that with high rainfall leading to fast-flowing groundwater driven by high hydrologic gradients, and that is precisely opposite to the stable environment with low groundwater flow required for burying nuclear waste.

I do not apologise for having gone on for so long, but there are a couple of other things that I must mention. We must take into account the impact on traffic. Is there strategic planning to meet the impact of the traffic that will be involved? What would that do to the special character of the national park? There will also have to be boreholes—deep and shallow boreholes, with dynamite and explosives. How will that meet the stipulations of quietness and quiet enjoyment of the national parks? I would be grateful if the Minister could clarify how long they expect it to last.

There has been a lot of talk about jobs. Of course there will be jobs if this goes ahead, but I am cynical, if I may be forgiven for saying this, about how many of these jobs will really be for west Cumbrians and how far high-tech, experienced industry will be brought in to do the job. As for the talk about a labour-intensive future for north Cumbria, that is rubbish. It might be labour-intensive while it is happening, but once it is functioning it will be a highly capital-intensive job, with very specialist people in a team looking after it. What will the benefits be for the Cumbrian economy as a whole?

I am also sometimes a bit sceptical about everything that is going on with United Utilities at the moment, with its new pipeline to divert water supply from Ennerdale to Thirlmere. Is it just coincidence, or something to do with the granite that comes available within the Ennerdale context and the thought that not many park visitors and local people would be very happy about having a nuclear storage facility under Ennerdale lake?

We have a huge national responsibility. Future generations will be watching us acutely. If anything goes wrong, we cannot escape that it is our generation making the decision. I believe that applies to all of us in Parliament, in both Houses. It certainly is the responsibility of government and shadow government. In my view, it is also the responsibility of this generation of civil servants. Can we live with whatever happens? Do we recognise that long, heavy responsibility into which we are entering?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Liddle]

I am sorry, that is right. It was the noble Baroness, Lady Verma, who was the Minister. As a result of that involvement at the time, several things were brought home to me. It is clear that the problem of nuclear waste has to be addressed, but that the most urgent national problem we face is the one that my noble friend described at Sellafield. It is, I have to say, to the credit of the Government since 2010, and the coalition Government, that at a time of great austerity the amount of public money being spent on the clean-up of Sellafield has increased very considerably. As a result, it is hoped that progress is being made.

But, of course, with the clean-up, what is happening to that nuclear waste? First, it is basically being stored for decades to come, either above ground or just below ground, before there is any question of what happens to it then. Given that, dealing with the immediate problems at Sellafield is the most important priority. Secondly, what is always said about this is something that I think is true: we have not invested enough in research into how to deal with the problem of nuclear waste over the long run. I would have thought that, given the vast amounts of money we are spending at Sellafield—it is possible that I am getting the figures wrong, but it is something like £1.7 billion a year of public money; an enormous amount—alongside that we ought to be spending tens of millions on research into how to deal with the long-term problem of waste. Are we absolutely certain that if we invest during this interim period in a 10-year research programme, at the end of it we would still consider the only solution to be that of burying the waste in the ground? We might see advances in dealing with nuclear waste which would enable Britain to be at the forefront of nuclear clean-up activities.

Thirdly, there are very considerable geological questions as to whether burying the waste close to the Sellafield site in Cumbria is a sensible thing to do. It was said to me at the time that in fact the most suitable site is in the Thames valley under London because it has the best kind of geology to suit this development. We must not get ourselves into a situation where the only reason for locating the site in Cumbria is that part of the west Cumbria community would accept it because of the economic benefits.

Fourthly, on that point, I hope that the Government are not being cynical with west Cumbria about this. I know that for local authorities like Copeland, £1 million a year is a lot of money given that its budget is £8 million or £9 million—something like that, so that is the promise of a lot of money. However, the truth is that if we are to create a diversified economic base for this part of the world in the future, it has to be based on the Sellafield supply chain. If we are to build a Sellafield supply claim which is based locally and in Lancashire around Warrington and make that an internationally competitive cluster of activity that will bring great economic benefit in the future, the important thing we have to do with Cumbria is to invest in infrastructure and interconnectivity between the county and the rest of Britain and the rest of the world. That is the urgent priority for our part of the world.

What we cannot have is a situation where a terrible choice is forced on people between the future of the national park and our responsibilities to future generations—which my noble friend Lord Judd spoke of so eloquently, and which I support—and the economic future of the Sellafield area. This is a difficult subject. We have learned in the past few weeks that it seems that the Government are withdrawing their support for a new nuclear power station in Cumbria. This is the recommendation of the National Infrastructure Commission. This is a huge blow to jobs in the area. We also know that because of the huge investment at Sellafield the number of jobs there will decline over the next 10 years or so. There has been talk of 3,000 fewer jobs. There are huge economic pressures in west Cumbria. The Government must address them in a serious way. I hope that the new nuclear power station is not dead, but it would be wrong to try to bribe this local community into accepting something that is not right in the national interest for the sake of its economic future. That is my fear.

[Lord Judd]

My noble friend has emphasised the vital significance of geology. There are some who argue that, in a less-than-perfect geological setting, engineered geology would be possible. Does my noble friend agree that that is not a convincing comment because while geological possibilities are there for all to see and experience, alternatives have not yet been proved? I was interested to see that even Sweden has been questioning a copper engineering solution because there are fears that the copper corrodes quite fast.

[Lord Liddle]

I am no expert on these questions, but I am interested in what my noble friend has to say.

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[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords for their contributions to the debate. In particular I start by thanking the noble Lord, Lord Judd, for acknowledging my officials in the department. He made it clear how useful he found the meeting. I offer something similar to all other noble Lords should they find it useful to come and talk to officials and hear more about this matter—just to get the issues better into their heads than might be the case as a result of the responses from me. I should also make it clear that despite my origins and those of the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, being in Cumbria, despite the noble Lord, Lord Judd, being a resident and despite the noble Lord, Campbell-Savours, being in his place, this debate is not about Cumbria and we are not making any decisions that the GDF that we are seeking should be in Cumbria or in any other part of the country. We are not targeting any areas or communities. It is very important to remember that all the way through the debate. Similarly, nor are we targeting development in national parks. No decisions have been made.

The important point to remember is that we believe that GDF is a suitable way ahead, but I accept the point that other noble Lords, in particular the noble Lord, Lord Fox, have made that further technological developments always come along and bring with them new answers that we cannot imagine. They might make it unnecessary, or in 100 years’ time they might provide a better solution, in which case we can extract what has gone down before it is finally sealed and do something else. There is the possibility that technology will provide the answer to the problems, as it often does. However, there can be no guarantee of that, so it is vital that we look to what things we can do at the moment. Again, no decisions have been made. I want to make it quite clear that we want to find a site that is suitable geologically and is where the community wants it. It is those two items that we must continue to address the whole way through these arguments.

Despite the interventions that have been made about Cumbria, the earlier debate and the various briefings that many of us, particularly those of us from Cumbria, have received from the national park and the Cumbria Trust, this is not about Cumbria. This is about finding the right site that people want, in the right place, and going ahead from that. From that point of view, I think that it was the noble Lord, Lord Judd, who complained that the county was being ignored and that we were listening to Allerdale and Copeland, the two districts that could be affected or were affected previously, and that the county, which made the decision on the previous occasion, was being ignored. This is not about taking away any democratic influence. The planning process we are looking at ensures that local communities, local authorities and statutory organisations will all be consulted before any geological disposal facility can be built. The consent-based siting process provides that further layer of protection, as the project will not go ahead without consent from the local community through a test of public support.

The noble Lord, Lord Liddle, made it clear, as did the noble Lord, Lord Fox—or the noble Lord, Lord Teverson—that this is a national issue. That is why we feel it has to be dealt with nationally. The Government are, after all, democratically accountable. On some occasions, things have to go beyond the county and be dealt with at a national level. I repeat that the county is not being ignored, but the decision has to be made at a national level. The process will give local authorities a key role while maintaining flexibility on the extent to which they choose to get involved. We consider that the role of local authorities will be critical in the process. They will give democratic legitimacy to that community partnership when making decisions that affect the local community.

There was a desire that we should automatically exclude all national parks. I understand that. I am not a resident of the Lake District National Park, but national parks are a national matter and we all have an interest whether we live in Cumbria or elsewhere. With the current legislation we already provide a very high degree of protection to national parks and permission for development will be granted in those areas only in exceptional circumstances and if it is in the public interest to do so. That is entirely in line with the Sandford principle, which was mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Judd. I assure the Committee that this matter was looked at very carefully by the BEIS Select Committee in another place, which made it quite clear that sufficient safeguards are in place to protect our national parks.

I move on to the question of geology. I do not want to go into detail of the geology of the Lake District and I am not going to speculate, as did, I think, the noble Lord, Lord Liddle, that the best possible geology is in the Thames valley. We will leave other bodies to consider that matter. Nor do I want to speculate on the geology of other parts of the country. All noble Lords were right to say that it is important that we look at geology because we are not going to look at or put forward a site, whether in Cumbria, the Thames valley or wherever, unless the geology is right. I hope that all those who are more expert than me—all other noble Lords—will bear in mind what the noble Lord, Lord Fox, said about geology not always necessarily being the most exact science when he spoke about his experience of the evaluation of projects relating to lakes. Obviously, it is difficult and we will continue to look at it.

[Lord Judd]

I thank the Minister for the way in which he is summing up. Will he say specifically that when he says the geology must be right, he means the geology must be right and not that some engineered containment area within imperfect geology will be acceptable?

[Lord Henley]

I am not going to speculate on what exactly will be found to be suitable—I will give way in a minute if the noble Lord, Lord Fox, will let me answer the question. As the noble Lord made clear, it is not the most exact science. We have to find a suitable area and it might be that it can be adapted in some ways. I cannot speculate on that; it must be a matter for future processes. It is not only the community involvement that we are looking for; it is also getting the geology right. Then we can move ahead.

Nuclear Safeguards Bill

Lord Judd Excerpts

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Thursday 22nd February 2018 Lords Chamber

I welcome the Government’s commitment to undertake three-monthly reports to Parliament on the critical pathway to put all the necessary provisions in place. Your Lordships’ House will then be in a position to monitor progress, and we have already discussed amendments to give effect to that this morning. This amendment would make sure that there was no drop in standards and that the UK safeguards regime will be to the high standard set by Euratom. The amendment would enable the Government and Minister to fulfil their commitments. I beg to move.

[Lord Judd (Lab)]

My Lords, I strongly support my noble friend and the amendment that he has moved. As I said in our deliberations last night, we must never forget that the issues with which we are dealing have implications not just for us, our children and immediate future generations, but for hundreds and perhaps thousands of years ahead. We have to get it right. There can be no confusion or compromise; there has to be fool-proof action right through, with continuity. There can be no gaps. We must have from the Minister categorical assurances that the Government have in place arrangements that will ensure that continuity when we leave. If we cannot have those assurances, the situation is impossibly grave, because anything can happen in even a short time if the adequate provisions are not there.

One very specific issue on this is that we know, from the Government’s own statements, that for our next generation of nuclear energy we are highly dependent upon expertise from outside the UK, because we do not have the expertise ourselves. What I do not understand is how we can have adequate—indeed, fool-proof—inspection teams working, and how we can have the quality and experience necessary for those teams, if we do not have that quality and experience available to develop our own energy. There seems to be an illogicality here. This is why it is crucial that the Government again have absolutely watertight arrangements about which they can tell the House to cover what happens if we foolishly come out of Euratom.

I have not heard those absolute, categorical assurances, or even begun to hear what the real arrangements will be. This matter is deeply grave. I have great respect for the Minister; I know he is a thoughtful man who will take on board the point being made. It is therefore crucial that this afternoon we have cast-iron evidence that the Government really have the situation under control.

[Lord Warner (CB)]

My Lords, I rise to support this amendment and congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, on his drafting skill in producing words that will not inflame the Government or, in particular, the—misnamed—European Research Group and its red lines. The amendment in no way implies that we, the UK, will go back into Euratom, however much most people in this Chamber wish we would. The noble Lord has kept clear of that dangerous territory and I congratulate him on that.

Indeed, there is nothing in the amendment that goes against government policy. The Government say that they aspire to achieving the safeguarding standards of Euratom but by another method than the current set of arrangements. That is all that the amendment tries to do. Indeed, it may help the Government in securing accreditation by the IAEA when it comes to the ONR being recognised as up to snuff in its standards. That accreditation is essential, as many people have said today, for us as a country to secure nuclear co-operation agreements. This is a helpful and well-constructed amendment, which the Government would be well advised to accept.

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[Lord Judd]

My Lords—

[Lord Henley]

Can I just complete a sentence before the noble Lord intervenes? The important point is that it will be able to deliver the standards that are broadly equivalent to the Euratom regime as quickly and effectively as possible. I give way now.

[Lord Judd]

I am very grateful. The Minister used the word “broadly”, which is very significant. Can he tell us a little more about what he means by that?

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[Lord Henley]

I will try to get it right. We will meet those without any problem at all. Those are the same as the commitments that the United States and other weapon states—an expression that the noble Lord probably does not like—have to meet, and we will meet them. Euratom’s commitments are slightly different, and so that applies to ourselves and the French as the two weapon states within Euratom. They are marginally different. We will get to those in due course, but we will meet the appropriate standards under the IAEA by next year, just as we do now.

[Lord Judd]

Again, I am grateful to the Minister for giving way. Can he clarify one point? He said that he is not sure that I have grasped the difference between safety and safeguards. He is quite correct because I simply do not understand how there is a dividing line between the two. I just do not accept that that is the situation—the two are intimately related.

[Lord Henley]

My Lords, I could go back but I think that I would try the patience of the Committee if I repeated a great deal of what I said at Second Reading and at other points about safety. The ONR has been dealing with safety for many years and it will continue to do so. Safeguards are another matter. In effect, they relate to the transference of certain things, ensuring that they cannot be used for nuclear warheads or whatever. Safeguards are different from safety. This Bill relates to safeguards and that is what we are trying to get over to the noble Lord. We will meet our IAEA standards on safeguards under this Bill once we have the powers so to do.

I hope that that provides noble Lords—with the possible exception of the noble Lord, Lord Judd—with the appropriate assurances. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, will feel that the information I have provided is sufficient in stressing that we will have a domestic nuclear safeguards regime equivalent in effectiveness and coverage to that currently provided by Euratom. That is what the Bill is intended to do. We are leaving Euratom. We have to make sure that we have the appropriate safeguards regime in place, and that is what the Bill tries to do.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Henley]

I know that Liberal Democrats live and die for Excel spreadsheets. They find them enormously exciting, although I do not understand that. However, the noble Lord makes a very good and serious point. This is not just about the appropriate individuals to be trained; it is also about equipment. Yes, again, the ONR is happy that it will have the appropriate equipment and IT systems in place for 29 March. The ONR has given a commitment that it will be ready to provide the right service, so that we can meet those IAEA commitments next year. It is very easy just to talk in shorthand about the number of people on the ground, but as the noble Lord, Lord Teverson, says, spreadsheets, which Liberals find very exciting, and other equipment are probably also involved. Yes, all of that will be ready—I can give those commitments.

[Lord Judd]

There is one other matter. Of course, one of the results of what has been in place, very successfully, under Euratom is the international nature of the inspection. We have to recognise that the implications of something going seriously wrong are not confined to British frontiers; there are implications for people—men, women and children—beyond our frontiers. How are we going to ensure that in the arrangements we make, we retain international confidence that we are taking, and are seen to be taking, that responsibility seriously, and are not judges in our own courts?

[Lord Henley]

The noble Lord talks about international obligations. The important thing to remember about the initials IAEA is that the first letter stands for “International”. It is an international body, we have been signed up to it since 1957 and we continue to be so. It will offer those guarantees.

Nuclear Safeguards Bill

Lord Judd Excerpts

2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 7th February 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Judd (Lab)]

My Lords, I should declare a couple of interests. I am a member of the Cumbria Trust, which has considerable concerns about some of the issues being discussed today. I also live 12 miles north-east of Sellafield, which always reminds me that at school I was taught that the prevailing winds were south-west.

The Minister was very firm at the briefing meeting that he kindly arranged before the Bill was under consideration here—and that meeting really was very much appreciated—that the Bill was about safeguards, not safety. The Minister has a style about him, and he was at his firmest in saying that. I have a great affection and considerable regard for the Minister. I have more respect for him perhaps in the sphere of marmalade than in political matters.

It just will not wash. There are no dividing lines: civil, military, safeguards and safety all overlap. They all have implications for each other. To think that one can take part of this and put it in a watertight compartment is, if the Minister will forgive me, nonsense.

We are all pretty disturbed—that has come across clearly in the debate—that we are dealing with a situation that is apparently an incidental consequence of deciding to leave the European Union. We are dealing with the utmost grave issues here—issues which affect not only current society but will affect men, women and children for thousands of years to come. They are profoundly grave and significant issues. To think that we can somehow rush this thing through in legislation is a betrayal of future generations. We must put it under very firm scrutiny, and we must be satisfied.

As if that were not enough, the fact that we are a nuclear power with our own nuclear deterrent again puts a heavy responsibility on us. When the non-proliferation treaty was secured, we gave the most solemn undertakings about our responsibilities in these spheres. We therefore have a duty to fulfil them.

I share with those who have spoken deep anxiety about the belief that national arrangements for inspection can in any way be a convincing substitute for international arrangements. It is crucial for the world—and for our own people—to see the independent judgments and assessments that come from international arrangements. It will become a cosy, closed circle in which things may tend to slip. So we must do our best to ensure that whatever is put in place is not open to any kind of doubt. Personally, I do not see how we can do that, but we must try.

It is also clear from what has been said in the debate that, because of what I just said and for other reasons, we should remain as close to Euratom as possible. We should not be defeatist about associate membership of Euratom, and I would like to think that the best legal brains available to the Government are working on how we do this, as distinct from why we cannot. In my experience of responsibility in organisations, it is crucial to find the lawyers who can help you to do what you want to, as distinct from those who tell you why it cannot be done.

The time available is clearly ludicrous, and some special arrangements will have to be made. But, if we are to have special arrangements with IAEA and voluntary agreements, as has been mentioned, we need to be clear about how they will be effective in this transitional phase, because I do not believe that the deadlines we have been asked to accept are feasible.

At the moment, there are eight professional safeguarding staff employed by ONR, compared with 40 at Euratom, focused on UK issues. We are asking for this to be undertaken with our British arrangements at a time when there has been a 70% cut in government grants to ONR from 2015-16 to 2019-20. There is also the issue of whether we have the necessary expertise. I recall that, some time back, when we were considering new legislation on nuclear power, the Government’s argument was that one of the reasons we needed to have foreign interests coming into the process was that we simply did not have the expertise that was available to those foreign experts. If that is real—it is a very worrying thought—and if it applies to the generation of nuclear energy, how much more real does that argument become to monitor effectively what we are ourselves doing? Parliament simply has to be satisfied that arrangements involving the IAEA, voluntary agreements and the additional protocol are as fool-proof as they can be—although I remain sceptical as to whether that is possible.

The noble Lord, Lord Fox, spoke about the costs and consequences of taking over the ownership of Euratom facilities and the subsequent costs of decommissioning. We really will need very convincing arguments from the Minister on all that. I particularly appreciated the speech of my noble friend Lord O’Neill of Clackmannan. In this context, I am interested that the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy has itself produced a number of—intended to be, I think—helpful factsheets. They have been produced in the context of our deliberations. I see that one on transport and waste states:

“The UK will continue to uphold its responsibilities in respect of spent fuel and radioactive waste. Appropriate arrangements will need to be agreed between the UK and the EU in relation to the status of radioactive waste and spent fuel generated by the UK but currently situated on EU 27 territory and spent fuel and radioactive waste generated by the EU 27 but currently situated on UK territory. UK legislation and standards in this area will continue to be informed by recommendations of the International Commission on Radiological Protection, the Joint Convention on Spent Fuel and Radioactive Waste, and the safety standards of the International Atomic Energy Authority”.


These are vital considerations. But, in dealing with waste, let us please remember that there are two categories of waste at least. There is the existing waste, which is a time-bomb ticking away, and there is future waste, which has implications for thousands of years ahead. We are involved in a situation that is not only grave but is of immense, incalculable historical significance for the future. We cannot rush it or botch it, and it will need a great deal of careful scrutiny by this House.

Higher Education and Research Bill

Lord Judd Excerpts

Report: 4th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 15th March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Prior of Brampton]

My Lords, I start by expressing my gratitude to the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, and the noble Baroness, Lady Brown, who have worked so constructively with me and my colleagues over the past few weeks and months. I am also indebted to my noble friend Lord Willetts, whose written definition of the Haldane principle is, and will continue to be, a beacon for Ministers, setting out in detail this important principle and its practical applications.

The Government have been consistently clear in stating that the spirit of the Haldane principle, through various provisions, is already, to use the word of the noble Lord, Lord Mendelsohn, “hardwired” into the Bill. I am grateful to all noble Lords who spoke on this point at Second Reading and in Committee, many of whom asked for a firmer form of words that directly refer to the principle itself. I offered to reflect on this, and I am delighted to table Amendment 191. I hope noble Lords will be equally delighted to accept it. We have drawn from the first line of my noble friend Lord Willetts’s Written Statement to define the Haldane principle as the principle that decisions on individual research proposals are best taken following an evaluation of the quality and likely impact of the proposals, such as a peer review process. This amendment is hugely symbolic and an important protection for UK research by putting a reference to the Haldane principle in legislation for the first time.

Amendments 176 and 182 place a duty on the Secretary of State to consult formally before laying regulations to alter the names, number or fields of activity of the research councils. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, who asked for clarity on the point of prior consultation in Committee. I hope that these amendments overdeliver on my promise to address the noble Lord’s question. While this Government previously committed to consult before altering a council, these amendments will bind future Governments to this commitment.

Likewise, this Government have been consistent in their pledge to allocate separate budgets to each council of UKRI. I listened carefully in Committee to the calls from the noble Lords, Lord Patel and Lord Broers, and the noble Baroness, Lady Brown, for greater protections. I have reflected on their speeches, and in response the Government have tabled Amendment 188, which requires the Secretary of State, when making grants to UKRI, to publish the whole amount and the separate allocations that will go to each council. This will ensure complete transparency, from this Government and future Governments, on all funding allocations to UKRI and to the research councils, Innovate UK and Research England.

In Committee, my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay spoke passionately about the definition of “relevant specialist employees” in Clause 91. This provision is intended to ensure that the research councils may continue to recruit directly certain specialist staff who are employed in relation to a council’s field of activity. My noble and learned friend raised concerns that the current definition could lead to ambiguity for relevant staff who may not be considered by some to be researchers or scientists. I have reflected very carefully on the powerful case that he put forward, and I am very happy indeed to table Amendment 178 to address his points. This amendment draws on the language my noble and learned friend employed in his amendment in Committee and expands the definition to include any person with knowledge, experience or specialist skills that are relevant to the council’s field of activity who is employed by UKRI to work in that field of activity. I sincerely hope that this amendment alleviates the concerns of my noble and learned friend.

I look forward to hearing noble Lords speak on the other matters included in this group, and I will respond after they have had a chance to speak to these amendments.

[Lord Judd (Lab)]

My Lords, I rise simply to make two brief points. In doing so, I hope I will be forgiven for taking the opportunity to pay the warmest tribute to, and to express my admiration for, my noble friends Lord Stevenson and Lord Watson for the sterling work they have put in on the Bill on behalf of this side.

There is a great deal of feeling in the research community about the points covered by these amendments. I am sure there is a recognition that a tremendous amount of work has gone into trying to find an acceptable formula of words. It should be put on record that many of those who are involved in the most outstanding research in our universities remain mystified about why the phrase,

“(such as a peer review process)”

should be in brackets. They believe it should, if anything, be in capital letters because they see peer review as essential to the process.

There is some feeling that the word “excellent” should not have disappeared. Quality is, of course, important, but what ultimately matters in the research record of our universities and in its contribution to Britain’s noble standing in the world community for the quality of our research is its emphasis on excellence. As this goes forward it will be essential to keep those two important concerns of the research community in mind. In saying that, I should emphasise that I am involved with three universities and that I was a governor of the LSE for many years and am now an emeritus governor.

[Lord Krebs (CB)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his introduction of these amendments. I shall refer very briefly to Amendments 189, 190 and 191 which are related to the Haldane principle. I am delighted that it is in the Bill. During the passage of the Bill we heard many different views on what the Haldane principle is, whether there is more than one Haldane principle and, indeed, whether it should be called the Willetts principle because one of the key references is the paper by the noble Lord, Lord Willetts.

Cutting to the core of what is involved here, it is about peer review and deciding which individual projects are funded within broad areas. Of course, it is reasonable for Ministers to have broad priorities, just as when the noble Lord, Lord Willetts, was Minister for Universities and Science, he described the eight great technologies that he thought were priorities for this country. However, within those, it should be the peer review system, the practitioners and others who are close to the action, who decide which projects are funded. Although the wording says “quality”, if I were on a peer review committee I would interpret “quality” as including excellence, echoing the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Judd. Therefore I warmly support this amendment.

Higher Education and Research Bill

Lord Judd Excerpts

Committee: 7th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 30th January 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Liddle (Lab)]

My Lords, the amendments raise important issues. I would like to bring to them my own perspective as pro chancellor of Lancaster University, not speaking for the institution but talking about how it strikes me that these issues concern us, thinking about the strength of the university sector in the north of England.

The fundamental problem with UKRI—on the whole I support the idea of UKRI, I hasten to add—is that the research and innovation strategy concerns the whole of the UK but the HEFCE functions on research are purely for England and are to be exercised by Research England. My fear about a board that, like that of the BBC, had a governor for each of the nations would be that the interests of England in such a body might not be as strong as they should be, and, in particular, that Research England and its funding might over time be marginalised as a result of the emphasis on the UK.

The funding for Research England is absolutely crucial to institutions such as my own. We are a top research university but not part of the golden triangle. We are in the north of England and we are quite small. So, because of scale, the ability to land big grants from the research councils is limited. A lot of our research success comes from the ability to do well in the research assessment exercise and get QR funding. If there were any reduction in the total of QR funding, that would hurt universities such as my own quite considerably.

I am concerned about the tension—it is in the nature of the beast, really, and we have to find a way of resolving it—between Research England, its Englishness and the need for that to be protected on the one hand and, on the other, the need, which I fully support, for a coherent UK research and innovation strategy. I am not sure that the best way of achieving it is by having, as it were, a governor for each of the nations of the UK. Indeed, if that were the Government’s response to this question, I would come back and say, “Well, can we please have a north of England member of UKRI?”.

I know that this sounds sectional, but the truth is that one of the strategic objectives that the Government have just put forward, in the very good industrial strategy paper that Greg Clark has presented, is to try to prevent the ever-greater concentration of research funding within the golden triangle. If we are going to have an effective regional resurgence, which I think there is cross-party consensus that we need in this country, universities will be at the heart of it. We have to find a way of making sure that other parts of England, as well as Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, have the opportunity to benefit from this welcome increase in research and innovation funding. To be frank, the risk with UKRI is that it will be dominated by the great and good of the science world, who will continue to channel most of the money into the golden triangle. I hope that the Government will take action to make sure that this is prevented.

[Lord Judd (Lab)]

My Lords, as somebody involved in the governance of Newcastle and Lancaster universities, I must say that in Lancaster we regard ourselves as extremely fortunate to have as pro chancellor my noble friend Lord Liddle. I was present at the meeting on Saturday when he made a terrific contribution and people listened with real sincerity to what he said.

There is a lot of importance in the point that the noble Lord just made about the north of England. If there is to be a regeneration in the north of England, the universities will be crucial to this. It is therefore essential that we ensure that we stop talking about regeneration in general terms and start doing concrete, specific, identifiable things to support that regeneration. This area is one that will obviously be crucial.

What attracted me to this particular amendment is that, as someone who is both a Scot and an Englishman—my mother and my brother were both at Scottish universities—I am very conscious of the high-powered and distinguished contribution that has been made by universities in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. It seems to me quite extraordinary that we should not as a matter of course say that that tradition and wealth of experience should be represented in the governing councils—as of right and as essential. That is very important.

If what I have been saying about regeneration in England is true, we are also these days discussing the need and importance of a greater sense of cohesive community in the devolved parts of the United Kingdom. We need to show that we are serious about this where it matters. The amendments help in that respect. It is very difficult to look at the Scottish universities, for example, and not see the whole story of the British industrial revolutions of the future. They have made profoundly important contributions, and continue to do so.

I do not know intimately, or so well, the story in Wales or Northern Ireland, except that I know that it is powerful. There is an area that is not central to our immediate considerations, but perhaps it should be. One of the things that I have always been struck by in Wales is that Aberystwyth was the first university in the United Kingdom to make the study of international relations and international affairs a recognised, serious degree and postgraduate subject. That has been terrifically important in our history.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Patel, for introducing the amendment, and I hope that the Minister will take it very seriously.

[Lord Broers (CB)]

My Lords, I strongly support Amendment 502. Indeed, until I saw it I had been minded to submit a similar amendment myself. My desire is to ensure that Innovate UK receives appropriate funding and the amendment happens to fit that rather well.

I believe that while the distribution of money across the research councils should to a significant extent be determined by UKRI, the allocation to Innovate UK which, I remind noble Lords, is to benefit persons carrying on business in the United Kingdom and improving quality of life in the United Kingdom, as laid out in the Bill, should be determined by the Secretary of State, and then not interfered with. It is important to emphasise that this allocation cannot be altered by UKRI without the specific approval of Parliament, by means of a resolution of each House. The criteria used by Innovate UK to determine which projects to fund are of a completely different nature from those used by the research councils. The noble Earl, Lord Selborne, mentioned this, and I shall mention it with other amendments; they are different from those used by the research councils to determine excellence in research in science, the arts and the humanities. While it is important that UKRI ensures that there are strong links between the research councils and Innovate UK, the allocation to Innovate UK should not be balanced against that to the research councils. It should be determined as a separate matter of national concern in consultation with industry and others by the Secretary of State.

--- Later in debate ---

Finally, I would be very grateful if the Minister could take this opportunity to give us some clarification of how the Government see the role of UKRI in its function of overseeing postgraduate research students and part-time students. We have a tremendous group of institutions in this country, particularly Birkbeck, with which many noble Lords will be familiar, which is an outstanding institute that deals with part-time students. The Bill lacks clarity about the role of such institutions. I would be grateful if the Minister could make that clear. I beg to move.

[Lord Judd]

My Lords, Amendment 485C is in my name. I want to follow the theme developed by my noble friend Lord Mendelsohn in the latter part of his remarks. This country needs strong industry and strong technology, which are vital to our future survival. The universities are indispensable in this respect. But the standing of our universities in the world, particularly universities with unrivalled reputations—I am proud to be involved in one, LSE—have those reputations because of the quality of their research. What has sometimes been most important in building up that reputation is exactly what my noble friend was talking about: the independence of that research. Within the vital indispensability of the applied research we do there is also a danger: that we lose perspective and the independent ability to judge what it all adds up to for the future well-being of our country.

It is no good trying to disguise the great concern that exists that in placing heavy emphasis on applied research and its vital needs, which we have debated this afternoon, the social sciences get weaker. It is absolutely indispensable for us to have firm guarantees from the Government that whatever arrangements are made, the social sciences will be guarded and protected, because within them are the people who see the consequences of developments as they take place. They see the wider social implications of what is happening. If we are talking about the well-being and viability of our society, their significance cannot be underrated. My amendment would simply add to this by saying that pure research matters, and we must emphasise it. In doing that, we must not become so mesmerised by the battle to survive in the immediate economic sense that we lose the perspective which is the guarantee of our future well-being as a nation.

[Lord Willis of Knaresborough]

My Lords, while I strongly support the amendments in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Mendelsohn—the points he made were absolutely right and I hope the Minister will be able to address some of them—I would like to concentrate my remarks on Amendments 493, 494 and 495, which are in the names of my noble friend Lord Sharkey and I and the noble Lords, Lord Cameron of Dillington and Lord Stevenson of Balmacara.

In outlining the desirable functions of the research councils, Clause 89 is far too narrowly defined, particularly subsection (4)(a). Amendment 493 recognises the importance of resilience as a fundamental requirement for the UKRI landscape. While a significant amount of the research funded by research councils should rightly contribute to growth—and most certainly does—a significant amount of research council investment directly benefits the economy by avoiding cost, rather than increasing income. Both these funding objectives are important and contribute to the UK’s resilience. Equally, by retaining a broad scientific capability across the research councils, the UK retains the ability to be resilient when under threat or pressure.

In his earlier remarks on his amendments the noble Lord, Lord Mendelsohn, stressed the importance of the arts and social science in this respect but the impact of other areas of science is equally important. Successive Governments have cut back on our national capability to generate scientific advice, and thereby resilience, by privatising government laboratories such as the government chemist, which is within LGC, the National Physical Laboratory and the Forensic Science Service, which was the last to go into 2012. I am not making a negative comment about privatisation, but once the Government could no longer rely on them for advice, an element of national resilience went at the same time.

Particularly since the mid-1990s, right across government, departmental resource for in-house science research has dropped dramatically. Since 2010 it has virtually disappeared from some departments, so it is a rather academic exercise to say whether it should be included within UKRI or elsewhere, because most of it has gone. The only way the Government can get a great deal of that hard scientific advice is, yes, through their own advisory services, but from the research councils. The need for the research councils to maintain capacity to train a body of scientists to carry out research on all manner of possible events—from avian flu to erupting volcanoes, from BSE to the El Niño effect—and to support the efforts of organisations such as the Met Office, the Antarctic service, Rothamsted and the Diamond accelerator has never been greater. It is the research councils which generally develop the skills at PhD and postgraduate level to supply those cadres.

Amendment 494 follows in a similar vein. Clause 89(4)(b) clearly recognises that research councils should have regard to the desirability of “improving quality of life”. It would be odd if they did not want that, which is clearly an essential element of government. This amendment would go much further by adding that research councils should support research activity that seeks to improve quality of life by seeking to enhance,

“social inclusion and community cohesion”.

When I wrote these amendments, I did not know how appropriate they would become as the threats to social inclusion and community cohesion, both here and abroad, become even greater. Using scientific research to make our lives simply better, rather than wealthier, seems an objective well worth pursuing.

However, Amendment 495 is in many ways the most significant in this small group. I hope that when he responds, the Minister will either accept this in its entirety or, if not, find a suitable set of words to convey the same meaning. A huge, although I believe unintended, consequence of the Bill, along with the emergence of UKRI as a new accounting body for UK science, is that the future success of UK science will be judged by its economic rather than its societal impact. Each should have parity of esteem. The principal role of fundamental or discovery science is to improve the nation’s science and knowledge base. Everything else flows from that, which should be an objective in its own right. While research councils must guard against their presumed inability to draw to an end certain funding lines of inquiry, we should never be so risk-averse that we do not try to fund risky ventures but always try to fund winners. Some of the greatest fundamental science had absolutely no outcome at the time it was developed, yet has proved incredibly powerful across the world.