Energy Bill

Lord Judd Excerpts

Thursday 4th July 2013 Grand Committee

[Lord Judd]

My Lords, I ought to declare an interest in the sense that, unless climate change has made a difference, I live about 10 miles due north-east of Sellafield. I also regularly use the A66, which is used by vehicles carrying nuclear materials and waste, and I also use the M6. I am sure that other noble Lords and I have that in common.

I shall start by reflecting on what my noble friend Lord Whitty said. It is good to see that the department has taken these issues seriously in the Bill. His amendments are extremely constructive and helpful in strengthening what the department obviously takes seriously, and that is right.

Perhaps I may make a couple of observations. First, I should like to pick up on what the noble Lord, Lord Deben, said. The Minister knows about my preoccupations with the recycling and waste process. I believe it is essential always to remember that this is a national responsibility and that we have to be certain that the sites selected are the best—or, at any rate, the least worst—available in the United Kingdom. It is irresponsible to get this tangled up with localism, local responsibility and so on. It is quite unfair to place on a local authority and local representatives responsibility for strategic decisions on such an important national issue. This is a national responsibility and we must approach it in that context. Of course it would be appropriate, at the right time, to get involved with local authorities on the implications, but we have to be satisfied that we are acting responsibly as a nation.

Secondly, I have often reflected in life that one of the problems that we run into as legislators is that we are inclined to think that legislation provides the answer. Of course, it does not. Legislation at its best underpins what should be in society’s behaviour and enhances the opportunities for good, effective professionalism and so on. Inadequate arrangements work exactly in the opposite direction and inhibit good action. Although sometimes with imperfect structures wonderful things can happen, it is much better and more reassuring to have the best possible structures and arrangements.

My most important point is that what matters most is the culture. It has to be a culture shared by workers and management at all levels. It cannot be the responsibility of only the safety experts or those named with a safety responsibility or the inspectorate. That is a losing game; it is like a gamekeeper trying to catch poachers. The responsibility must be central to the professionalism and culture of all those involved in this work because the hazards are considerable. From that standpoint, I hope that in our deliberations we will look at this sense of shared cultural responsibility.

I do not want to be sensationalist—it is easy to be sensationalist in an area such as this—but for those of us who live in an area like Cumbria there are too many stories of one thing after another going wrong. We have just had another massive fine imposed in the past few weeks. We have had stories of lorries coming from the Midlands with waste dribbling from them all the way across to their destination in west Cumbria. It is important to make sure that this issue is properly seized and that there is an indispensable culture of commitment in the whole nuclear operation. I want nuclear to succeed but this is essential to its success and contribution to humanity.

My final point is simply this: there is probably room for us to explore a little more the relationship between what we are talking about now and health. There needs to be full co-operation between all those involved and those operating the health services in the vicinity. Sometimes in these areas matters come to light that need attention, and I hope that that point can be taken on board.

[Baroness Verma]

My Lords, I am extremely grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, for his careful consideration of this part of the Bill. I will start by commenting on questions that have been raised before going through my notes to be able to answer, I hope, each amendment that the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, has raised. The noble Lord mentioned the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee’s report. We are extremely grateful to the committee and are giving careful consideration to its recommendations and working closely with it to provide it with further documentation. I hope to get that to it very soon.

The noble Lord asked whether the Bill covered sites yet to be granted a licence. The definition of a relevant nuclear installation includes proposed installation sites, so the answer is yes. No safety critical work can ever happen unless a licence has been issued.

I start by congratulating my noble friend Lord Jenkin because next year he will be completing 50 years of continued service in Parliament and we are extremely grateful for that.