Mesothelioma Lump Sum Payments (Conditions and Amounts) (Amendment) Regulations 2023

Lord Jones Excerpts

Monday 6th March 2023 Grand Committee

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, I am delighted to follow the noble Lord, Lord Alton. The figures he just quoted bring home the reality of this to us, and I pay tribute to the work that he has undertaken over so many years in this area. I am delighted to support both the uprating regulations and welcome the 10.1% increase. I am sure the nurses and the teachers would be delighted to have a similar increase if it was in the Government’s ability to do so, but it is good that the value of these payments should be maintained.

Noble Lords will be aware of the provenance of the Pneumoconiosis etc. (Workers’ Compensation) Act 1979. It was driven on to the statute book in the dying days of the Callaghan Labour Government, propelled at that time by the needs of slate quarrymen in north-west Wales. Coal miners suffering from pneumoconiosis had of course been compensated as a result of the tripartite agreement between the NUM, the NCB and the Government in 1975, but no provision was made at that time for workers from other industries suffering similar lung diseases. Slate quarrymen were one such case but there are many other industries where it was relevant.

It was in the few days after losing a vote of confidence by just one vote that Michael Foot, to his eternal credit, ensured that the promise given to Plaid Cymru MPs at that time was delivered in all stages. The legislation went through both Houses in just two days, which was remarkable and very much to his credit. I also pay tribute to the work done by the Transport and General Workers’ Union regional secretary, the late Idwal Edwards, who campaigned vigorously on these matters.

Several thousand ex-quarrymen, who had no remaining employer against whom to take legal action, and their widows have benefited from the legislation and still do. But by now, many more workers in other dust-generating industries are also able to benefit from it, so it would be very helpful if the Minister could indicate how many pneumoconiosis sufferers, by industrial group, receive compensation under the Act over whatever recent period is available. If those figures are not available to him but they are in the department, perhaps he can write as they would, I am sure, be of interest to Members on all sides of the Committee.

By now, the major group of sufferers from lung diseases is that of mesothelioma victims, as outlined by the noble Lord, Lord Alton. Their condition arises from asbestos dust, so it is right that we should debate both these instruments together. Mesothelioma was covered partially in a 1979 order but, rightly, sufferers have demanded specific legislation dealing with the particular nature of that disease. There have been several such steps over the years. It is a vicious condition, as has been described, which can be dormant for many years, without anybody realising it is there, then attack the victim with a ferocity that can kill within months. I have seen that for myself; it happened in the last few months of the life of a very good friend of mine, Peter Wolfe, whom I remember as a teenager playing snowballs with asbestos flakes when our school gym was taken down and rebuilt. That is similar to the story the noble Lord, Lord Alton, recalled being recounted to a previous Committee. Peter died six decades later but only five months after his condition became apparent. That shows the speed with which it can attack.

It is right that asbestos sufferers are covered by legislation specific to their condition, and it is right that it should be uprated and that new ways of helping the victims and families should be developed. Equally important are the steps that the Government are taking to avoid exposure to asbestos dust. The Minister mentioned this; it is so important that publicly owned buildings—schools, colleges and other buildings, even hospitals—are monitored for the dangers in this direction. Perhaps I should mention very gently that there are parts of the Parliamentary Estate where asbestos has been used, and that too should be a matter of some concern to us in all parts of this Committee.

The Minister has told the Committee what is being done to eliminate or at least partly curtail such exposure. Can he give any indication of what the target dates will be for this being finally overcome? That may be too much to hope for, but it should still be the intention, target and aspiration of whoever is in government to take away the cause of the suffering, as well as compensating those who are suffering. Can the Minister give any indication of the anticipated time period until the demand for such compensation, on the present trajectory, would be finally eliminated?

Finally, I return to the slate industry. The demand for slate has increased in the recent past and now the employment profile is on an upward trajectory, interestingly, for the first time in decades. I am glad to say that employment is now being secured for more people, but greater care is being taken to minimise exposure to the dust—and that is to the credit of employers and unions alike. The slate industry landscape of north-west Wales was awarded world heritage designation 18 months ago, which pleased me and other noble Lords, I know, very much. It is worth noting that part of that story was the social dimension, not least the fact that the industrial hospitals provided in three major quarries, starting around 1820, were among the first such hospitals in any industry in the UK.

Today’s uprating regulations should be seen in the context of the social battles to get fair play for those working in particularly dirty and dangerous industries, and the recognition by government that compensation is appropriate. In any way that government can undertake such action, the cause of compensation should be eliminated.

[Lord Jones (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his thoughtful and succinct introduction. It is always instructive to hear the noble Lords, Lord Alton and Lord Wigley, with their committed and highly informed references to the lump sum payments. On page 4 of the first item on our Order Paper, in lines 4 and 5, I see the magic words that refer to

“increasing the amounts payable under the 2008 Regulations by 10.1 per cent”.

That is really good news. The Minister can be proud of proposing these regulations, which represent a humane approach by a great, undervalued department. Perhaps we can blink at the detail of tables 1 and 2 and contrast those sad figures with the Explanatory Memorandum, which posits words at paragraph 2.1 that must be music to the ear of the recipients or their families. Let us put into Hansard for the record the names of Lewis Dixon of the department and Louise Everett, the deputy director for ESA.

Bereavement Benefits (Remedial) Order 2022

Lord Jones Excerpts

Tuesday 17th January 2023 Grand Committee

[Lord Jones (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for the context in which he placed the order, which was so persuasively itemised, and the department for the detail given in the Explanatory Memorandum. It is a warm-hearted and welcome measure, and it is good to see the Committee populated by caring colleagues.

In relation to paragraph 7.10 of the Explanatory Memorandum, is it possible to give an estimate of the number of retrospective payments now available to our fellow citizens through the measure? Has work been done on such figures? Is there a global figure? Is there any information on the likely typical average amount of retrospective money that might be paid out? Does the department know that sort of figure for that sort of person? Indeed, are there any statistics that might be given to make this welcome measure easier to assess by number and amount?

[Baroness Brinton (LD)]

My Lords, I too start by thanking the Minister for his helpful explanation. I apologise for not being able to attend the briefing, but Monday mornings are a problem.

On balance, we on these Benches are as pleased as other speakers that this has now come to fruition. We are grateful for the work that the previous Minister, the noble Baroness, Lady Stedman-Scott, did on this. The example given by the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, was extremely helpful, and the points raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Altmann, and the noble Lords, Lord Jones and Lord Davies, on some of the other implications, such as tax, are very interesting.

I am sorry that I will now get into some really difficult areas; I hope the Minister will bear with me. I appreciate that I am creating a scenario to which there may not be a speedy response, and I am more than happy to have a written reply. I am particularly interested in paragraphs 7.23 to 7.25 of the Explanatory Memorandum, which set out the determining hierarchy should there appear to be more than one claimant. It is very helpful.

In his introduction, the Minister talked about polyamory, but there are other circumstances as well, such as where people with caring responsibilities live under the same roof, which might include familial members who are not actually spouses but, in the event of the death of the parent—for this purpose I am assuming it is a sole parent who is dying—there are others who will take over responsibility for the children. I know that there has been some concern over multiple claims, and paragraphs 7.23 to 7.25 helpfully set out the priority order.

For me, the issue is much more about the JCHR’s proposal that this benefit should be identified as belonging to children. I am not sure it said it should be paid directly to the children, but because much of it is determined on the age of the children it is clearly designed to support extra costs for somebody with children who has lost a partner. For me, that is important, because I want to raise the issue of kinship carers.

I make a full declaration: I think that my husband and I counted as kinship carers 20 years ago when we became foster parents and then guardians, approved by the family courts, for our best friend. When she died, her children joined us. We had to navigate all the systems in place at that time, which included going to the family court and getting the residency order. That enabled us to claim child benefit for the children. I know that is now means tested, but I am talking about eligibility for child benefit.

The organisation Kinship consistently reports that family members who take on responsibility for children after a partner either has been unable to look after them or has died, as in this circumstance, have ended up having to leave their jobs, not being entitled to benefits and finding every barrier put in their way because they are not typical family carers. Even though they may have had to go through the fostering approval process, as we did, because the courts need to be satisfied that they are capable of looking after and taking responsibility for the children, they are not entitled to foster payments because they are regarded as kinship carers.

The “Emmerdale” actor Jay Kontzle, who was raised by his grandparents after his mother died when he was four, recently said he saw at first hand the way it affected their lives. His grandmother had to stop work and they both had to take on the very difficult task of looking after their orphaned grandchild. It is helpful that he has done that. Kinship surveys have shown that 45% of carers give up jobs and have found repeatedly that they were not eligible for support.

I am remembering my schoolgirl Latin. There is a word, “num”, which notoriously requires a negative answer. I think I expect a negative answer, but there is a real injustice here for this group of kinship carers, whose identification is confirmed by the courts and other benefits but who would not be eligible under these arrangements unless they were living in the same house. How long do they need to live in the house? I wonder whether the Minister can look at this. It may be that this is one of those special cases where there is nobody else who would obviously qualify but where it is needed, for the children and the life changes they will face, for the kinship carers to be considered eligible.

Pensions Dashboards Regulations 2022

Lord Jones Excerpts

Tuesday 15th November 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Bowles of Berkhamsted (LD)]

My Lords, I was not expecting to have to do the dashboards but, as the Minister will know, I intervened during the passage of the Pension Schemes Act. I was there for the money and finance bits and discovered that I had a bit of a love/hate relationship with the dashboard. At first sight I love the idea, but then—as has been relatively eloquently explained, and I will not delve further—there are all kinds of problems, ranging from operational ones to the ones that interested me most. I think I am in exactly the same space here as the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, as usual. What happens if it becomes a platform for advertising?

A good starting point is to look at paragraph 14 on page 9 of the impact assessment, which is about the rationale for the intervention and the pensions dashboard. It quite clearly mentions

“potential benefits/efficiency gains to pension providers if consumers are encouraged to keep track of their pensions, save more, potentially consolidate pots, and shop around for decumulation products”,

but those are benefits to the providers, as it says there. We need to be very clear: we want to make sure that the benefits to the providers do not leave out benefits to those with pensions.

Talking about consolidation, I understand that if there are a lot of really small pots, there is probably something to be said for sweeping those together. But having been self-employed for my entire working life, when I set up my own pension schemes I wanted a bit of diversity. I had several because I did not like the notion that one of the funds might go bust and I would be in trouble—if I had loaded it all into Equitable Life or something. Much to my disappointment, they all got consolidated into Aviva through the consolidation of the industry. Actually, that is not quite true; I still have some others. I carefully selected a completely different batch for my husband, but they also ended up all in Aviva.

Some diversity is a very good thing, because you get performance differences. You might want to phase how you take your retirement and it might prove to be more flexible. So the notion that you should force everybody to have one pot is bad news, to my mind, because you are cutting out diversity and the opportunity that that brings.

Like the noble Lord, Lord Vaux, I latch on to the comments made by the Minister about commercial exploitation. That is a very important point. These pensions dashboards will not be cheap to make. If you do one, with all the wonderful data there, you will be very tempted to exploit it in some way; yet we do not have the information in front of us because that kind of thing comes presumably through the FCA route. I apologise that my information is not as full as it should be, as I too was unable to go to the meeting that was arranged. As there are several regulators involved and several parts of this puzzle to be brought together, it would be nice to have that bigger overview instead of having it in bite-sized chunks where you cannot fully see how they inter-fit.

Most of my other points have already been raised by others and I will not go back to them. However, I was slightly curious about delegated access. Again, it was indicated that, essentially, a financial adviser could have the delegated access. When I speak to a financial adviser, I do not necessarily want them to know what I have got everywhere. Again, as I have several different pots, I can get advice about one pot and not another. Assuming that everybody should have the full view is perhaps not the way to go. I do not know whether it would be possible, but it would be good if you could somehow choose which part is visible to somebody and which is not. I would like to have seen that, but it might be rather difficult.

I also wonder what the provisions will be for others, such as family members who may become involved in trying to help some of their older people sort out their pensions. Some people want that, some do not. They will not be regulated. Will they have to have some kind of formal or legally signed document to be able to take that position? Obviously, they can be sitting at your shoulder when you access, but there will be people who are incapacitated. How will their dashboard be accessed and what will be the safeguards?

I think just about everything else has been mentioned. I will just say that I agree with a lot of the questions. In general, I accept that we need this statutory instrument because it paves the way for everything else to come, but it would have been quite nice to see more of the parallel tracks coming to the same discussion. We will have a statutory instrument or something from the FCA, which will be separate from this. It would have been nice to have them as a package, perhaps debated together, so that we could cross-compare for whether there are gaps, how the different responsibilities will be bridged and how the information will be shared. All these things are yet to come.

[Lord Jones (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for her introduction—a heroic introduction in the circumstances—and for the department’s lengthy Explanatory Memorandum. The department is clearly trying to help and has put in a lot of hard work to try to throw more light on a complicated subject. My noble friend Lady Sherlock is always up to the mark on complexity, and there is plenty of complexity in these regulations. The pensions paper is 41 pages long, which is not a criticism by any means. Surely these dashboards are positive, helpful and welcome.

Mesothelioma Lump Sum Payments (Conditions and Amounts) (Amendment) Regulations 2020

Lord Jones Excerpts

Tuesday 3rd March 2020 Grand Committee

[Lord Alton of Liverpool (CB)]

My Lords, it is a great pleasure to follow the noble Baroness, Lady Thomas of Winchester, and I will echo some of her remarks about resources, research and automatic uprating. Along with many other noble Lords in Grand Committee today, I have been involved in the fight against mesothelioma for many years. I am pleased to see this important issue before us again because it is important that we keep it in the public eye and keep talking about the questions that the noble Baroness has just raised.

This is not an abstract, theoretical issue for many Members of your Lordships’ House. I have been surprised over the years by the numbers of colleagues from both Houses of Parliament who have told me about the loss of loved ones—people within their own families—who were affected by this killer disease. I fully support the uprating of the lump sum payments in line with inflation. We must do everything possible to support people who have been exposed to asbestos and other hazardous substances at work and who now face these terrible consequences.

In previous years, when these regulations have been discussed, as they have been annually since the introduction of the compensation scheme, noble Lords have asked whether future increases could be made automatically rather than being at the discretion of Parliament—a point that the noble Baroness touched on a few moments ago. It is important that the Government give careful consideration to this argument, and I look forward to hearing from the noble Baroness, Lady Stedman-Scott, when she comes to reply, about how the Government intend to take forward the question of automaticity. Doing so would send a powerful message that we are committed to supporting people and their families affected by these awful diseases.

Why do we need to keep raising our voices about mesothelioma and pneumoconiosis? There is a misconception that occupational lung disease is a historical problem that has been solved. However, there are still many occupations and high-risk work activities that present risks to lung health, from construction and cleaning to artisan baking and much more. The Health and Safety Executive estimates that occupational lung disease results in around 12,000 deaths a year.

Mesothelioma is an invasive type of cancer caused by prior exposure to asbestos. It grows in the pleural membrane that lines the outside of the lung and the inside of the chest. Less commonly, it can also affect a similar lining around the abdomen or the heart. There is currently no cure. Mesothelioma patients often have a short life expectancy and experience complex, debilitating symptoms. Around only 5% to 10% of people diagnosed with mesothelioma survive for five years or more.

As the noble Baroness reminded us, I made the point last year that, tragically, we have the highest rate of the disease anywhere in the world. Mortality rates have more than quadrupled over the past 30 years. It is estimated that around 2,500 people die of the disease every year, and that over the next 30 years around 60,000 people will die of mesothelioma in this country unless new treatments are found.

Mesothelioma is more common in certain parts of the country, such as Liverpool, where people are 18% more likely to die of this disease. Indeed, it was as the Liverpool Member of Parliament in another place that I first encountered the tragic and always fatal consequences of this disease. In Liverpool, mesothelioma has its roots in the historic industrial shipbuilding legacy, as asbestos was used extensively in shipbuilding. Later we will hear more about pneumoconiosis from my noble friend—and friend in every respect—Lord Wigley, but I can see that the noble Lord, Lord Jones, wants to intervene. I would not dream of holding back from allowing an intervention from him.

[Lord Jones (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord. I rise simply to say that I recollect the strong campaigns in another place made over the years by the noble Lord, Lord Alton, with sincerity and indeed to some effect.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool]

I am grateful to the noble Lord. For me, it has been a great pleasure to co-operate with him in both Houses of Parliament on issues of this kind. As he knows from his experiences in north Wales, many lung diseases are caused by inhaling dust. The common types include coal workers’ pneumoconiosis, which is caused by breathing in coal mine dust, and silicosis, which is caused by breathing in crystalline silica dust and typically affects workers in industries such as quarrying, foundries and potteries. Like mesothelioma, there is a long delay between exposure and onset of the disease. In 2012, 374 people in the UK died because of pneumoconiosis.

What about diagnosis, prevention and support for people with mesothelioma or pneumoconiosis? Here I pay tribute to the British Lung Foundation. This wonderful charity raises awareness of occupational lung disease and funds research into treatments and cures. It also provides the secretariat to the Taskforce for Lung Health. The task force is a coalition of more than 30 organisations from across the lung health sector, including royal colleges, patients, and the Health and Safety Executive, who came together to publish a five-year national plan to improve lung health in England. Included in the plan are recommendations to improve prevention and awareness of occupational lung diseases such as mesothelioma and pneumoconiosis. I should like the Minister to listen to two of the recommendations, which I will highlight, in order to ask her what more the Government could do to support their elevation in order to make sure that they are given real substance.

Under these recommendations, employers are responsible for ensuring that effective measures are in place to control exposure to hazardous substances in compliance with the Control of Substances Hazardous to Health Regulations 2002. They should also highlight risks at work to employees and encourage people to think about their own and others’ safety, including wearing the right protective clothing and masks. What are we doing to make sure that employers are honouring those recommendations?

Secondly, healthcare professionals should be trained to recognise and understand lung diseases which are caused at work. Asking questions about occupation when a patient presents with respiratory symptoms could improve early detection, allowing people to start treatment as soon as possible, as well as to access any compensation that they are owed. The number of occupations that present risks to lung health is surprisingly broad. Staff training should be included in undergraduate and postgraduate curricula and continuing professional development. Is that something that the noble Baroness would be prepared to take up with the relevant Ministers in other departments to ensure that it is acted upon? What will the Government do to take forward these recommendations?

What are the Government doing to increase funding for mesothelioma research? Research into lung disease is underfunded in comparison with the disease burden. Only 1.8% of the total UK health research spend went towards respiratory disease in 2018, despite it being one of the top three killers in the United Kingdom. As I have said, there is no cure for mesothelioma and it is poorly understood as a disease. That point was made earlier by the noble Baroness: the reasons people contract the disease are not sufficiently well understood.

In 2014, I tabled an amendment to the Mesothelioma Bill, and in 2015, I introduced a Private Member’s Bill in your Lordships’ House which would have put a small levy on participating insurance firms to help secure long-term research funding into mesothelioma. Unfortunately, the amendment and the Bill were defeated. At the time, it had the potential to raise about £1.5 million a year for research. That represents a small amount of money to each of the insurance companies but would have created a great number of research opportunities and given hope to people living with mesothelioma and, indeed, their families.

Since then, the Government have allocated £5 million for a national mesothelioma centre at Imperial College. I thank those Ministers who put in considerable effort to secure that and to look at voluntary funding from the insurance industry—I am thinking in particular of the noble Lord, Lord Freud, and the work that he did on that. I am pleased that the British Lung Foundation was also able to secure match funding for this £5 million and that two insurance companies, Aviva and Zurich, donated a combined £1 million to the British Lung Foundation’s mesothelioma research programme. Unfortunately, negotiations for a broader long-term funding commitment from the insurance industry came to a standstill. What are Ministers now doing to take that forward, building on the excellent work of the noble Lord, Lord Freud?

Overall, the British Lung Foundation has spent over £8.7 million on research into the disease. With this money, the BLF has been able to support further research and clinical trials, and has set up a mesothelioma research network. The network brings together researchers to share ideas and collaborate to help translate research more quickly into new diagnostics and treatments for people with mesothelioma. It now has 180 members worldwide and has led to 12 new or potential research collaborations. I pay special tribute to the efforts of the noble Lords, Lord Giddens and Lord Willis, and the noble Baroness, Lady Blackstone, who have worked, with me and others, to bring some of that about. Some of the research projects funded or co-funded by the British Lung Foundation have included exploring using the immune system to fight the disease and the development of a tissue and blood sample bank, MesobanK, which gives researchers quick access to samples and data to help accelerate research.

I would like to see more research into how we deal with asbestos in schools. This is a very real issue, about which far too little has been done. Again, I pay tribute to my noble friend Lady Finlay of Llandaff, who has taken a lead on this. It is also important to look at the effect of mesothelioma in the Armed Forces. We should recall the noble Lord, Lord West of Spithead, describing to us how young men played snowballs with asbestos at Dartmouth. The consequences of our past ignorance are still being lived out today.

While I fully support compensation for the victims of these diseases, it is surely in everyone’s interest—the victims, the Government and the insurers—to put investment into finding a cure. That would, long term, remove the need for lump sum payments or any insurance industry levies. Because this field is so underfunded, every pound of investment is likely to be worth while and to attract further funding. I am pleased that the British Lung Foundation continues its work to secure funding for vital mesothelioma research. It has recently secured £5 million over five years from Catalina Holdings, aimed at achieving early diagnosis and trials of high-potential drugs. But the Government must do more as well.

I come to my last point. The Merseyside Asbestos Victims Support Group—I pay tribute to John Flanagan and to Joanne Gordon, who chairs the Asbestos Victims Support Forum—has raised with me the particular case of equalising and upgrading posthumous payments. I hope that the Minister will reply to this point tonight—I know that it has been raised with the Government by the metro mayor of Merseyside and others. The payments are meant to provide some compensation for asbestos victims who cannot take legal cases. That is surely right. However, there is an inconsistency in the schemes. If applications are made after the patient has died, the payments, which can be claimed only by surviving partners or dependent children, are substantially lower. That cannot be right.

A victim aged 77 making a claim based on a 100% IIDB award will receive £14,334. The surviving partner of someone who passed away at the age of 77 will receive £7,949. In such a situation, many family members feel that the life of their loved one lost to this devastating disease is regarded as being of less value. This is surely morally wrong, especially as in a legal claim a surviving partner will suffer no such disadvantage. Furthermore, victims’ families could suffer a financial hardship, as people budget on the basis of two incomes and, through no fault of their own, are reduced to one income and are further disadvantaged by receiving a lower government compensation payment.

The victims who receive payments are not interested in the money for themselves. However, they are concerned about the financial security of their families. In this situation there is clearly a moral and financial case for raising the level of posthumous payments. I know that the noble Baroness will have been listening with care, and I hope she will be able to respond in a positive way.

There are also practical considerations. Of the 3,830 payments made in 2018, only 260 were posthumous claims. In 2010, the Government acknowledged that there was no justification for differential payments, further adding that such inequality in payments could put pressure on victims at a time when they are most vulnerable. The Government made a firm commitment to bridge the gap between in-life payments and posthumous payments. I hope the noble Baroness is able to say today that that commitment will be honoured.

Some 60,000 people will die over the next 30 years. We owe it to them not to merely go through an uprating ritual every year but to provide tangible support and world-class leadership in research.

[Lord Wigley (PC)]

My Lords, I am delighted to follow the noble Lord, Lord Alton, in this debate. We have campaigned together on many occasions, and I was glad to support his Bill in the past. I came to the mesothelioma question through the death of a very close friend, my school chum Peter Wolfe, who died four or five years ago, within a matter of four months of having been diagnosed as suffering from mesothelioma.

The figure quoted, of 60,000 possible deaths, may be more than the number of deaths in the UK arising from the present flu scare. That puts it into context and underlines the need for us to address it. I have spoken in several debates on this in the past and will not repeat the points I have made. I very much support what was said by the noble Baroness, Lady Thomas, and the noble Lord, Lord Alton, about the need for funding for research in order to minimise the extent of suffering due to mesothelioma and asbestosis. I reinforce the point made about schools. So many schools were built using asbestos, and in Wales, the National Assembly are facing this issue in a number of locations. This has to be tackled, otherwise there will be problems.

I will focus mainly on the pneumoconiosis order, although the two do of course blend into each other. From debates in earlier years on the uprating orders, noble Lords may recall the interest I have in these matters, arising from having represented for 27 years a slate quarrying area in the Caernarfon constituency. They may well also recall the significant involvement that my colleagues and I had in pressing for the Act to be completed in the dying days of the 1974-79 Labour Government—something that my noble friend Lord Jones will well recall.

[Lord Jones]

The noble Lord will recollect that I was a member of that Administration, which fell on a vote of no confidence.

[Lord Wigley]

Indeed. Our three votes were not enough to save that Government, but they were enough to help the pneumoconiosis Act find its way through, in two days flat, to the statute book. That that happened is a tribute to Michael Foot, among others. There had been delays all along in getting the Act on to the statute book, but Michael Foot made sure that it went through both Houses within 48 hours—quite a remarkable achievement.

It might interest noble Lords to know that considerable interest is now being taken in this legislation in the context of the bid for UNESCO to accord world heritage status to the slate industry in north-west Wales, in a similar manner to that given to the coal industry’s big pit at Blaenafon. One aspect of interest in the presentation of that case is the way in which the slate quarrying communities led the fight and campaign to secure compensation, not just for slate quarrymen, whose health was undermined by breathing in industrial dust, but for workers in so many other industries. That includes those working in cotton mills, pottery production, foundries and other metal industries, and even some working in the coal mining communities who were not covered by the coal mining scheme.

In recent years we have seen asbestosis and mesothelioma, both covered by the Act, become the predominant part of the payments made under the Act, which I will come on to now.

At the time of passing the 1979 Act, the Government estimated that it would cost £5 million in the first year and, thereafter, £75,000 per year—yes, £75,000 per year. In fact, more than £20 million was spent in the first five years and £30 million over the subsequent 10 years. In the five years from 1994 to 1999, the figure was £25 million. Since then, expenditure under the Act has mushroomed. From 1999 to 2009, £236 million was spent, and from 2010 to 2019, £415 million was spent. A large part of that was clearly associated with asbestos-related diseases, but I have tried by way of Written Questions to identify which payments were related to which industries that come under the purview of the Act—which is a reasonable question to ask—so that we might see how the issue relates to other industries.

I wanted also to establish that the total cost of asbestosis is not only the payments under the 2008 scheme but a large part of the payments being discussed here, which adds to the significance of the need to find a solution for those suffering from mesothelioma. We have a right to know. Certainly, it is not the slate quarrymen who have been the beneficiaries of the huge sums that I have referred to, but they will of course be glad that provision is there is to help others in need. The trigger is asbestosis. Can the Minister confirm that, if those figures are not available now, the Government will undertake to identify exactly what costs are attributable to what industries?

I do not deny for a moment the absolute right of those in any industry who have suffered loss of health and even life as a result of their work to be properly compensated, but questions need to be answered about whether the schemes still help those not affected by asbestosis and to what extent. Perhaps a focus can be put on that. It is also relevant to ask what the total for mesothelioma is between all the schemes and what research budget is needed. It is a large sum, but it needs to be even larger to help those most in need. I would be grateful for the Government’s response.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Jones]

I thank the Minister, the noble Baroness, Lady Stedman-Scott, for her caring introduction. The increase of 1.7% in respect of asbestosis must be welcome, but, whatever the lump sum paid and whatever the increase, none of us can quite comprehend the miserable impact on the sufferer or the dependant, but it is good that some recompense has now been made.

Is there a regional breakdown of where sufferers worked historically? Does the department have that information? Is there any indication of the number of survivors and the number of dependants in receipt of payments? Does the department have such a figure? What sum of money has been paid so far since enactment? Does the department have that information? If so, could it be given to the Minister?

There have been some recollections. The late Lord Harold Walker of this noble House described to me how in the late 1960s workers in a factory in Hebden Bridge played snowballs with the piles of asbestos. The real tragedy in this case is that the asbestos was blue, which is, in effect, a certain prescription for illness and death.

I recollect debating the subject of the second SI with the Minister on a previous occasion. I remember it well; it might have been her first appearance in this Committee—a very fine appearance, if I might say so. She was responsive, as she always is. Again, I thank her. I intervene on this SI on the matter of the slate quarrymen, particularly those in north Wales, on whom the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, gave us his own insights. How many claimants are there now? How many dependants are claiming? Is there a breakdown for that part of Wales? Is there a breakdown by county—or country—of claimants throughout England and Wales? Is such statistical information available to the department?

Should there be the time and inclination, I will briefly describe a quarry in Blaenau Ffestiniog called Llechwedd. It is underground, of course, cavernous, dark and damp. There were dangers and pitfalls. Of course, the quarrymen worked underground at the quarry face. There were no health and safety regulations whatever when that quarry was at work. In what we call the olden days the quarrymen had to pay for the candles that lit their place of work. That is the memory and heritage. That makes some humanity of the regulations that the Minister must necessarily bring to the Committee. I stress that the emphasis of regulations should be on their humanity—the consequence for the citizen.

Another quarry, Penrhyn, was arguably the biggest in the world. Ten miles away from that great quarry, which is not active now, is a great castle, Penrhyn Castle. It is now a National Trust property. Should Members ever visit it, there is a Rembrandt in the breakfast room. My point is that the castle is mighty; it was built in the 19th century on the profits from the slate quarries. The contrast between the humble quarryman, and the mighty potentate and the wealth and treasure he and his descendants had, is enormous. It puts our debate into further context.

In 1976 I sat alongside the late Michael Foot, when he was deputy leader of the British Labour Party, as a junior colleague throughout the passage of the legislation. He enacted the first Health and Safety at Work etc. Act. It is relevant to emphasise that historic legislation to place this important SI in context. The department would then be the keeper of that memory, and the memories which noble Lords have recalled and put forward for consideration today.