Detainee Issues

Debate between Lord Janvrin and Lord Young of Cookham

Thursday 18th July 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Cookham]

The noble Lord may be right. If it were an offence under the law just referred to, as Ministers are obliged by the Ministerial Code to abide by national and international law, they would be precluded from taking action that ran the risk of that breach.

[Lord Janvrin (CB)]

I draw attention to my membership of the Intelligence and Security Committee. I take the forward-looking element of the Statement and welcome the publication of The Principles, which take into account the comments of Sir Adrian Fulford and many of the important changes that the ISC recommended. One point of interest is the reference to new principles coming into effect when the necessary training and guidance are in place. That implies, as I think is the case, that further guidance will be produced by agencies and the various departments. Will that guidance be made available to Sir Adrian or his successor and to the ISC?

[Lord Young of Cookham]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for his work on the ISC. He is absolutely right: The Principles, published today, will lead to internal guidance being produced by the MoD, for example, which will take the overarching principles and turn them into more specific guidance relevant to the context in which people in the MoD will work. That internal guidance will be available to the IPCO. I will take advice on whether it will also be available to the ISC; I see no reason why it would not. Sir Adrian is minded to encourage, where possible, this internal guidance being made public.

I have discovered the right paragraph for my noble friend Lord Deben. I refer him to the section called “Reporting non-compliance” in Sir Adrian’s report. On not reporting any non-compliance, it says:

“Non-compliance for these purposes is a failure to comply with these Principles. An instance where a sustainable assessment, made in good faith, subsequently proves to be incorrect will not count as an incident of non-compliance”.


That is the serious section of The Principles that addresses my noble friend’s point, which I have now located.