Succession to the Crown Bill

Debate between Lord James of Blackheath and Lord Lang of Monkton

Thursday 28th February 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord James of Blackheath]

My Lords, my noble friend Lord Deben has been singing from the same song sheet as my noble friend Lord Trefgarne. In effect, he is saying that this is too complicated to rush and we need more time on much more detail. We are on only the third amendment and already we are looking at a series of complexities which have not so far been considered. This Bill is riddled with the potential for unintended consequences of the type we are talking about. We need much more thought and much more time. In the two weeks since Second Reading I have had a great many communications from your Lordships, mostly disagreeing with something I said on that occasion. I have a shortlist of what the principle points are and they are not really addressed in the process today.

First is the point that no Parliament may bind its successors. One of my contentions is that the deed of rights does effectively bind its successors, as does the Act of Settlement. The question of entrenchment was not considered at all, yet it is fundamental to that issue. There is the issue of the sovereignty of Parliament and of the Crown. The Crown in Parliament is a special factor and an expression which needs to be redefined in that context. There is also the question of the limitations that the Bill seeks to avoid and thus whether the constraints which normally apply do not apply to the limitations of power. Amazingly, one of your Lordships accused me of committing “desuetude”. I do not have a clue what desuetude is, but I assure you that it has nothing to do with what has been going on in the Liberal Democrat party.

If the tabloids think they have a new story, I wish to make the point that this Tory Peer has never done desuetude in his life as far as he is aware and if he did, it was an accident and he was lured into it unawares. I found that desuetude is not recognised under British law and does not apply, so we can kick it into touch. On all the other issues, particularly the right of this House to accept the delegation of the royal prerogative, I stand firmly in my belief that we do not have the right to act accordingly and we have been ill advised and inadequately advised about our proper role and authority.

We do not have time available for all these great issues. My concern is that although we could go into them individually now or at some other time, at the rate we can process with this, we do not have enough days or months available to consider this important Bill. I am not opposed to it, but I will leave your Lordships with two thoughts. There are two awful, unintended consequences which we have not thought of. First, if we pass this Bill we have effectively done away with the need for a Scottish referendum because we have driven a coach and horses through the 1707 Act of Union. It no longer exists because you cannot pass this Bill compatibly with the separate proclamation and coronation oaths required by the 1707 Act.

Secondly—and I hate to say this—I fear that if we pass this Bill we have in effect created what will amount to the accidental and unintended abdication Bill. I cannot see how this Bill can be given Royal Assent, and without it, it cannot pass. In those circumstances, the only way it could ever be passed is during an interregnum, which can happen only with the death of a monarch or an abdication. There would then have to be an interval of several days before the proclamation of the new monarch in which this Bill could be passed. I cannot see that it could be done in any other way. We are in an area of total ignorance and floundering. We need more time and more guidance.

[Lord Lang of Monkton]

My Lords, I support the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Northbrook. In particular I endorse everything said by my noble friends Lord Lexden and Lord Mancroft. One point to make by way of modest qualification is that I understand there are a number of other dukedoms and titles held by the Prince of Wales which might also need to be changed and modified to bring them into the needs of this Bill. As long as this does not delay action on the Duchy of Cornwall, I hope that the Duchy of Lancaster and any other such duchies should be looked at quickly as well. It would be better to have one composite solution to the problem rather than a piecemeal one.

[Lord Berkeley]

My Lords, I have a question for the noble Lord, Lord James. As far as I recall, he spoke at Second Reading about the House committing collective treason. Why has he not put down some amendments in Committee to take these arguments forward, so we do not all commit treason?

Succession to the Crown Bill

Debate between Lord James of Blackheath and Lord Lang of Monkton

Thursday 14th February 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord James of Blackheath]

I am grateful for that intervention. The fact that that would apply in this case should be read into the record of Hansard before we are asked to vote. It should come from the Leader of the House. We need that on authority.

There are other reasons why this might be. It might be that the Majesty of the Crown is concerned that this is already seen to be in breach of the coronation oath and it is wondering whether it can avoid that problem by having us give an assent that overrides that breach of the coronation oath.

The third possibility is that the Majesty of the Crown simply does not like this at all and is relying on our good sense and common sense to throw it out. The fourth possibility is that the Majesty of the Crown really does not mind and thinks that it should leave it up to us to decide. We need clarification about the reasons why we have the delegation of the prerogative in this case.

In all of that, I have been making the assumption that we are talking here about the coronation oath. But since I asked my questions, I have found that there is another oath that preceded the coronation oath, which applied to every monarch in the 20th century. It is only 54 words long and I would like to read it to the House. This was signed on the morning that Her Majesty returned from Kenya. She was rushed to Clarence House in order to sign a proclamation oath so that officials could get on with what was now overdue—to get the royal proclamation of the new monarch before darkness set in in London. It states:

“I, Elizabeth do solemnly and sincerely in the presence of God profess, testify, and declare that I am a faithful Protestant, and that I will, according to the true intent of the enactments which secure the Protestant succession to the throne, uphold and maintain the said enactments to the best of my powers according to law”.

That is 54 words. I wish noble Lords would tell me which part of the Bill does not shred that oath.

As I said, 325 years ago, William and Mary accepted the throne. The circumstances under which they did so have a direct bearing on where we are today. It is a vexed question for me. Are we concerned with the Act of Supremacy or the Declaration of Rights? I am convinced that it is the Declaration of Rights. Every aspect that is supported by that oath is provided for in the Declaration of Rights, not the Act of Supremacy. Therefore, we need to be sure that we are setting out to amend the right bit of legislation and the right Act. I think that we have the wrong one.

William arrived at Brixham on 5 November, 1688. He set off with his own personal army of 13,500 to London. We call it the glorious bloodless revolution, but it was not. Some 104 people were killed just getting past Reading alone. It was not a bloodless revolution at all. When he arrived here, he was welcomed by the Lords and rulers of the day. James was still in the country. He wanted to go. William wanted James to go as well, but unfortunately the Bishop of Rochester could not get the plot. They sent James to stay with him because it was the nearest place that he could get a boat to go to France. The Bishop of Rochester seemed to think that he was the jailer to James and kept bringing him back every time he went down to the boat. Eventually, the House of Lords had to send some gentlemen down to have dinner with the bishop sufficiently to get him intoxicated so that he would not notice when James slipped out to get the boat, which he did. After that, they were able to proceed with the final negotiations with William and Mary for the throne. They put the Marquess of—

[Lord Lang of Monkton]

I am grateful to my noble friend for giving way. I think he is mistaken. I think he is building a house of cards. Even the members of the convention on the Declaration of Rights did not believe that it was legally binding. That is why they brought forward in 1689 the Crown and Parliament Recognition Act. That shows that Parliament did not consider itself bound by the Bill of Rights, which in the first instance had enshrined the Declaration of Rights. It placed it on an unimpeachable legal footing. There can be no doubt that all the matters that were covered by the Declaration of Rights were subsequently properly enshrined first in the Bill of Rights and then in the Crown and Parliament Recognition Act 1689.

[Lord James of Blackheath]

I am grateful for all helpful contributions.

The Bill of Rights was read to William and Mary by Mr Joe Browne, who was then the Clerk of the Parliaments, or rather he should have been reading it to them but he had sent his footman down with a sicky in the morning to say that he was feeling too unwell and could not turn up. He subsequently said that it was because he felt an irritation at the back of his neck where an axe would come. Similarly, the Archbishop of Canterbury declined to come, and proceedings were handled by the Bishop of London.

On the day in question, when it had been read through, William stood up and said:

“This is certainly the greatest proof of trust that you have in us that can be given which is the thing that makest us value it the more and we thankfully accept what you have offered”.

At that point, the Marquess of Halifax knelt down and gave the crown to him. Thereafter, the sackbuts and cornets of Parliament went out with armed guards to take the Declaration of Rights around the city, where the proclamation was read in four places and the next day was announced as a public holiday.

It seems that we are seriously confused as to which bit of the past constitutional history of this country we are trying to alter and what our rights are in so doing. None of the constitutional papers or others that have been given to us even begins to approach definitive advice on that.

I return to my initial point. I believe that we are not doing as we are required to do, which is to support the Crown in the decisions that they have to make, if we pass something that may still be a breach of that oath that was signed by Her Majesty on her proclamation day back in 1962.