Mesothelioma Lump Sum Payments (Conditions and Amounts) (Amendment) Regulations 2017

Lord James of Blackheath Excerpts

Tuesday 28th February 2017 Grand Committee

[Lord James of Blackheath (Con)]

My Lords, I am sorry to interfere again but when I read this I got a nasty jangle in the back of my head which said that this does not necessarily fit with what we discussed before, in the days when my noble friend Lord Freud was bringing the Bill through. I remind your Lordships that at that time, I initiated direct discussions with the Royal British Legion on exactly this subject because it is the expert on what is happening, who is suffering and what their state is.

Sadly, the Royal Navy is the principal biggest culprit. Worst affected of all are those who served on the Royal Yacht “Britannia”, which is a terrible scandal. Nearly everybody who served or did anything in the engine room of the Royal Yacht “Britannia” is now either dead or dying from diffuse mesothelioma. The Royal British Legion set up a special department to deal with this, because the tragedy is that people’s wives and children have got it, too, because you have only to wash the coat of somebody who has this to be a condemned person from that moment on. The Royal British Legion has gone to great lengths to make sure that it is monitoring and looking after the wives, families and dependants of these dreadfully stricken people.

At the end of that debate, my noble friend Lord Freud gave an undertaking that he would not do anything that initiated payment structures which interfered with or were diminished by the presence of the Royal British Legion payments, so that people would get the maximum benefits for their hugely distressed situations; that he would look after things to ensure that nothing we did cut across the Royal British Legion’s process, and vice versa; and that it would be wholly co-ordinated. The jangle I got in my head was because I have never heard whether that has happened, and that is why I am asking for some assurance that my noble friend’s undertaking was fulfilled. What is its status today, please? It really matters.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Henley, for his introduction and explanation of the regulations. I am sorry that the noble Lord, Lord James, has had a nasty jangle in the back of his head. Clearly, he is concerned about undertakings made in respect of the Royal British Legion. I worked on this—not alongside the noble Lord, Lord Freud, but on the opposite side—and I do not think that anything has arisen in the course of lots of changes to these provisions over a number of years which would be in breach of the undertaking he gave the noble Lord, but it is not for me to defend a former Minister.

[Lord James of Blackheath]

My Lords, I will put the noble Lord’s assertion to the test with one simple question: can we say with absolute certainty that not one penny from the Royal British Legion has been withheld or interfered with by us through the conflict between its initiatives and ours, and that everybody has gone ahead with the full funding under both arrangements?

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

No, I cannot possibly say that. It is not my role as a shadow Minister. If anybody is going to give those undertakings, it is the noble Lord, Lord Henley, and I wish him well.

As we have heard, the regulations cover various compensation schemes, including the ones for pneumoconiosis and other dust-related diseases covered by the Pneumoconiosis etc. (Workers’ Compensation) Act 1979, and, separately, mesothelioma. The payments are uprated by 1%, which is the September 2016 CPI rate of inflation. One might say that this is a meagre sum, just missing the surge in inflation generated by the decline in the rate of sterling post the referendum, although we acknowledge that there is no statutory obligation to uprate the compensation schedules and that the 1% aligns with the uprating of industrial injuries benefits, as we have heard. Obviously, we support the regulations but I have some questions.

We have no impact assessment for the instruments, although the Explanatory Notes indicate that in the year to March 2016 some 3,520 people made a claim under the 1979 Act, including 310 claims for dependants. I think my question may already have been answered. Can the Minister tell us how many of these claims were successful and can we have an analysis of the various categories of dust-related diseases? I think the noble Lord referred to 3,592 payments. The explanatory memorandum talks about claims. Maybe it is a question of nuances of terminology, but it would good to know the actual number of successful claims. Can we also be provided with an analysis of the amounts of the various claims, how these were funded and the extent to which there has been or will be clawback of social security benefits?

So that we can get the overall picture of the numbers suffering from these dust-related diseases—other than mesothelioma—can we have some detail on what has been covered by employer liability insurance? The ELTO 2015 annual report—when will we get an updated one?—shows an improvement in successful inquiries but apart from mesothelioma itemises only asbestosis and asbestosis-related illnesses. Further, the ELTO report does not cover successful claims which might be made directly to insurers outside of ELTO. Can we be provided with a complete picture of the number of workers entitled to lump-sum compensation arising from the 1979 Act for the latest period available? Can we also be provided with details of how many are missing out on compensation?

The position concerning mesothelioma is different, as we have heard. Diffuse mesothelioma is a fatal cancer of the lining of the lungs or abdomen caused almost exclusively as a result of exposure to asbestos. Symptoms and diagnosis may not emerge until 30 or 40 years following exposure—it is a long-tail disease—and this obviously exacerbates difficulties in identifying relevant employers and employer liability insurers. A number of steps have been taken in recent times to improve access to compensation for sufferers of this terrible condition. In 2008 the previous Labour Government introduced the scheme which is the subject of the regulations before us today. It is a no-fault scheme, so does not require a work-related nexus or proof of negligent exposure to asbestos. It has tended to be illustrated, as the noble Lord, Lord James, said, by exposure caused by washing somebody’s work clothes.

After an initial differential, the rates of compensation under the 2008 Act—for sufferers and dependants—have been separately aligned with the 1979 Act amounts for those with 100% disability, although, as the noble Lord said, there is still the differential between payments in respect of dependants and sufferers. Again, we have no impact assessment, although the Explanatory Note tells us that some 400 people made a claim in the period ended March 2016, including 10 dependants. How many of these claims were successful? How were they were funded? I seem to recall that the original concept was for funding to come from civil claim recoveries. What is the current position? If we are to see the overall picture here, albeit not strictly covered by these regulations, we should consider the further important developments led by the noble Lord, Lord Freud, with the co-operation of the insurance industry. These include the Employers’ Liability Tracing Office, which focuses on assisting claimants to identify an appropriate employer liability insurer. While the 2015 report shows the inquiry success rate improving, it is far from 100%. For mesothelioma, it is just below 77%.

So onward to the diffuse mesothelioma payment scheme—a scheme of last resort—which started making payments from July 2014. It seeks to compensate those negligently exposed to asbestos while at work but who cannot trace the responsible employer or insurer. The scheme is funded by a levy on the gross written premiums of those insurers writing employer liability insurance. It was acknowledged that the insurers could not commit to a levy level above 3% of gross written premiums. In its first year, net payments of £24 million were made, with an average amount of £122,000. The tariff payments, originally at 75% of average civil claims, have risen from 80% to 100%. There is an oversight committee, which my noble friend Lady Donaghy chairs.

In respect of mesothelioma entitlements with an employment nexus, can the Minister let us know for the most recent period available the total number of successful compensation claims and the amounts achieved via employers or insurers, either directly or using the tracing office, and the total number of tariff payments made under the payment scheme? Has the DWP made an assessment for the most recent period of the number of mesothelioma sufferers who have not been able to access either compensation or a tariff payment? What do we understand the reason to be for the shortfall between the expected claims to the payment scheme and outturn for the most recent period? The Minister did give us an updated forward projection of the incidence of mesothelioma: 2,500 cases for the rest of the decade. The Minister is probably aware of the extensive debates we have had on this issue and of the focus on funding for research for sufferers. That has been a positive development.

As a final point, ELTO has made good progress in tracing policies. It is suggested that better access to the employer reference number from HMRC would assist in this. There was an attempt to amend a recent Bill to try to secure that, but it was unsuccessful. Will the Minister tell us what is happening on this issue?

Diffuse Mesothelioma Payment Scheme Regulations 2014

Lord James of Blackheath Excerpts

Monday 17th March 2014 Grand Committee

[Lord Howarth of Newport (Lab)]

My Lords, I add my thanks to the Minister and congratulate him on achieving this legislation and bringing in these regulations. I thank him for his compassion, for the collaborative way in which he worked with noble Lords on all sides of the House, and for his strong determination to get to where we have now reached. It is a very significant achievement and he deserves our admiration and gratitude. Like other noble Lords, I am grateful to him for raising the level of compensation to 80% of average compensation awards. That is a significant improvement that will make a lot of difference to families when they find themselves in such dire need.

I want to ask the Minister just one question. Will he clarify that it is his intention that the overall value of the scheme should continue to be set at 3% of gross written premiums after the peak year for claims? He has told us that we are to anticipate perhaps 2,500 claims in 2018, after which the numbers may reduce—although the noble Lord, Lord Alton, told the Committee that it is projected that there will be another 60,000 cases over the next 30 years. There will continue to be a significant volume, and I put it to the Minister that it is important that that 3% of gross written premiums is not reduced in the years after 2018. We all hope that after a long period of Labour Government, starting in 2015, the Minister may still have an opportunity to play some part in these affairs. I appreciate that it is difficult for him to bind his successors but it would be helpful if he would say on the record that he, as the architect of this scheme, envisages that the employers’ liability insurers should continue for the whole future life of the diffuse mesothelioma scheme to have to provide 3% of gross written premiums. If that was the case while the numbers of claimants or beneficiaries of the scheme were falling, it would make it possible to move the level of compensation up from 80% towards, or perhaps to reach, 100%. That would be one very important possibility.

There are other good things that it would be possible to do were funds to remain available while the total number of claims fell. It would become possible to backdate the eligibility for the scheme beyond July 2012 to February 2010 or even further. It would also be possible—I tabled an amendment to this effect in Committee on the Bill—provided that the legislation allows it, which of course is questionable, to adapt the regulations to cover family members who themselves contract mesothelioma even if the person who was exposed to asbestos in the workplace did not personally contract the disease. We talked about the case of a member of the family—most likely the wife—who washes the overalls of the person who has been exposed to asbestos fibre in the work-wear and she contracts the disease. As I understand it, the Minister has still not been able to bring those people into eligibility. However, if we had a slightly less tight financial envelope, then, through keeping the 3% of gross written premiums to fund the scheme, it would be possible to help those people.

Of course, it would also be possible to mitigate benefits recovery. I know that the Minister’s department, for theological reasons, will set its face against that, but, as the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, said, it seems very hard and unreasonable to claw back 100% of benefits from people who are receiving only 80% of average compensation. So there would be further latitude there. There would of course be further latitude to provide additional funding for research, the case for which has been so consistently and eloquently made by the noble Lord, Lord Alton. Among the range of options, it would also be possible to extend the benefits of the scheme, or perhaps a newly created parallel scheme, to victims of other long-latency industrial diseases whom we want to help.

I do not know what sorts of permutations might be possible but one could envisage this range of possibilities, and I hope very much that this afternoon the Minister will at least be able to tell us that there will not be a tapering of the overall value of the fund. The industry having treated mesothelioma sufferers so very badly over many decades, it seems to me that it should not be let off the hook. I appreciate that the current generation of employers’ liability insurers are not the worst culprits, and perhaps not the culprits at all in individual cases, of the failure to honour the policies that were written. However, I think that the industry as a whole has to continue to bear its share of responsibility and—I know that this is the spirit in which the Minister has always approached this whole issue—we should do the very best that we can for people who at the moment the scheme is not intended to help but who it would become possible to help if we maintained the value of the fund past 2018.

[Lord James of Blackheath (Con)]

My Lords, I apologise for not having been present at the beginning of this debate but I should like to make two points, the first arising directly from what the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, has just said. Three per cent of premiums seems to be the wrong way to come to this issue. Three per cent of the total reinsurance value backing asbestosis would be a nice round sum. It is about £6 billion of my money that I put in from Lloyd’s of London, and it is much nicer to get 3% on that. That coming in each year would give a lot of leg-room.

My other point is that I have been keeping in close contact with the Royal British Legion on this. At present, it has 42 cases—although, rather ominously, it has said that it expects that number to fall very quickly to 38—where it is providing care at its own expense and at considerable cost. Will the Minister explain what the crossover would be between this scheme coming in and either taking out or supporting the British Legion? I am concerned that when this comes in, it does not result in a hiatus, out of which the poor sufferers get nothing at all, whereas now they get support from the Royal British Legion. We need to know with some clarity what will happen in that respect. Those are the only two points I would like to make on what I have heard so far.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Freud]

Yes, that is one of the moving features here. We are moving the tariff up. We have committed to moving it up by CPI in this interim period. That is a sensible enough period after which to take a new look at where civil compensation has moved, if indeed it has, and to reset. However, at that stage other factors could also be looked at. Although the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, is enticing me in his skilful way, that is all I can say on the review. I am deeply impressed.

[Lord James of Blackheath (Con)]

The noble Lord, Lord Howarth, was enticing the Minister into a quicksand. We need to get this matter clearly understood. There is no such thing as a pot containing the premiums that were originally paid for this cover. All those moneys were taken by the companies who then went bankrupt. It is not there. The only pots that exist are the reinsurance pots. Basically, with our £6 billion liability, we took £3 billion to Zurich Re and £3 billion to Swiss Re, and that is where it stands today. If you go for those and can negotiate that they are allowed to reduce their balance sheet liability by the 3% you get each year, they will be very interested. However, you will not get the 3% and the reduction in their balance.

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, we are moving now into the arcana of the insurance industry, which the noble Lord, Lord James, knows better than anyone in the Room. When I first had discussions with the insurance industry, they centred around something that would have affected its balance sheets. It was a structure which went to the historic issues. However, for reasons that are too complicated to go into, they ended up with this scheme which, as the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, pointed out, affects the current writers of liability insurance, who may or may not be the villains of the piece. It is not perfect, but it is the best we can do. This is where we are.

To pick up on the point made by the noble Lord, Lord James, much as it would be attractive to go after reinsurers, we simply do not have the information to do so. Even the noble Lord, Lord James, I am sure, could not find that information.

[Lord James of Blackheath]

Do you want phone numbers, my Lords? They are there. They have the money and, in the case of the Swiss Re, it is backed by the Swiss Government, who have not yet gone bankrupt. They are working on it, but not yet.

[Lord Freud]

Noble Lords could go on about this, but I cannot.

On the other point made by the noble Lord, Lord James, about the crossover between the schemes supporting the Royal British Legion, I am not aware of the issue he raises, but I shall look into it for him.

On the point made by the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, on the oversight committee, we are not legislating for that, but we have discussed the matter with the AVSG, the TUC, insurers, personal injury lawyers and accident insurance lawyers. We are agreeing with those groups how the committee could operate. We intend that it will look at various aspects of the running of the scheme, particularly in the early period. We envisage it considering complaints against the scheme, redacted claims and decisions. It will then send a report to the Secretary of State, who will include the issues raised by the committee in his published annual report. It will be quite transparent.

On the point made by the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, about HMRC, we continue to work with other departments to seek a resolution to this issue. Regrettably, that is still ongoing work. We have encouraged the ABI to continue to engage with the MoJ as they look to improve the process for mesothelioma cases in regard to the portal.

In response to the question asked by the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, the reason we can increase the payments to 80% is because the scheme administrators have now been selected and the costs have been finalised. Those costs fall well below projected costs, and this allows us to increase the payments while keeping the levy the same.

In the November impact assessment the net benefit to lawyers was expected to be £2.69 million over 10 years. That has reduced to £1.6 million. The reason for this difference is that the original scheme administration costs used in all previous versions of the impact assessment assumed that some legal administration costs would benefit lawyers working on the scheme. These costs were estimated to be £23 million from successful cases, £1.7 million from unsuccessful cases and £1.2 million from ad hoc legal administration costs. Due to further understanding of the way in which the scheme will be administered, it is now recognised that these legal administration costs are not necessary, meaning that overall it is expected that lawyers will benefit by less. I can confirm that applicants will still receive the difference between the £7,000 and the legal costs, if there is a positive difference.

Mesothelioma Bill [HL]

Lord James of Blackheath Excerpts

Monday 22nd July 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Howarth of Newport]

My Lords, if it is in order to make some brief remarks in the debate on these amendments which go a little wide of them, as the Minister has just done, I will do so now rather than on the Motion that this Bill do now pass. In the absence of the noble Countess, Lady Mar, I will take a chance and hope to have the indulgence of the House. In our proceedings on the Bill, we have considered very closely the predicament of people who have suffered the tragic misfortune of contracting mesothelioma. This predicament has elicited strong feelings of sympathy all around your Lordships’ House. It is the role of your Lordships’ House to advise our elected colleagues in another place and I would like to reflect for just a moment on what the essence of that advice should be.

In the Bill, we are attempting to deal with the consequences of what should certainly be regarded as a major scandal. Of course, among employer’s liability insurers there are many honourable and conscientious people, but in their ranks there have also been, I regret to say, a significant number who have been deeply dishonourable and reckless. Some of the employer’s liability insurers have behaved as badly as the worst of the bankers and the worst of the touts of mortgage loans did in the run-up to the crisis of 2008.

Because of the long latency of mesothelioma and the three to four decades that the disease takes to incubate, there was scope for genuine administrative confusion, but a significant proportion of insurers have managed to lose the documentation that would have enabled mesothelioma sufferers to make a claim against their employer, or their employer’s successor, and perhaps to make their case in the civil courts. Within that number, it is very clear that there were also significant numbers of insurers who wilfully destroyed that documentation. Such negligence and criminality in relation to people who are doomed to suffer from this most horrible illness and to die of it seems peculiarly cynical and, I would say, depraved. There has been the inhumanity of that but there is also another fundamental issue at stake; the proper administration of contracts is fundamental to the functioning of a free-enterprise economy and to the maintenance of trust in society.

We have all admired and applauded the Minister who, building on the initiative of my noble friend Lord McKenzie of Luton, negotiated with employer’s liability insurers the scheme that this Bill would legislate. The Minister and his officials have invariably been helpful to us, and he was most generous in his remarks just now about noble Lords who have participated in these proceedings. As he said, it has been a collaborative process. We recognise and thank him for the improvements that he has made to this scheme during the passage of the Bill—the raising of the rate of payment to 75%; his agreement that details of the scheme should be brought in by regulation; his acceptance of the principle of an oversight committee; and his decision that the scheme should go out to open tender. I am sure that he will continue to give attention to the significant issues raised just now by my noble friend Lord Browne. The noble Earl, Lord Howe, made a very constructive set of proposals in response to the noble Lord, Lord Alton, on how to facilitate and fund further research into mesothelioma.

The difficulty that the Minister has had, and one that we entirely understand, is that having conducted his negotiation with the industry and reached an agreement with it, he has found it very difficult to budge from the exact terms of that agreement. I do not think that Parliament is bound by the terms of an agreement negotiated between the Government and the industry. Indeed, it is the responsibility of Parliament to improve the scheme further if we can in the public interest. There is therefore a small number of issues which we should commend to our colleagues in the House of Commons for their further consideration. I hope that they will want to look again at the rate of payment and the date for eligibility. I very much hope that they will want to look at the plight of people who are at the moment excluded from the scope of the scheme, such as members of the households of people who were employed and exposed to asbestos, where the employee has not so far contracted the disease but the household member, perhaps someone who did the household laundry and washed the contaminated overalls brought back from the workplace, has contracted it. People in that situation are not covered by the scheme. The self-employed too, even if self-employment was something of a technicality, will not be eligible to benefit. I hope also that the Government will after all agree that there should be an annual report on the progress of the scheme to assist Parliament in its necessary further vigilance in the interests of mesothelioma victims.

I know the Minister has been fearful that if such refinements to the scheme were to be brought in by way of amendments to the Bill, the insurance industry would take away its bat and ball and revert to its customary position of taking legal action to prevent the Government from requiring it to do what in decency and justice it ought to do. Of course, we do not want to see any delays to the implementation of the Bill. I hope that Members of the House of Commons will take the view that a legal case by the employers against minor improvements of this kind to the Bill would be very weak indeed, given that they have accepted the principle that there ought to be a scheme of this kind which they should fund. My noble friend Lord McKenzie of Luton has demonstrated that the costs of such improvements would be affordable, and I do not believe that the employer’s liability insurers would be so shameless as to go to court to try to prevent these modest further improvements and further advance of justice for mesothelioma victims.

In the course of our proceedings on this Bill in your Lordships’ House we have defined the issues and laid out arguments and I very much hope that our colleagues in the elected House will wish to pursue these issues.

[Lord James of Blackheath]

My Lords, I had not expected to rise at this stage of the debate but, having listened to the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, I feel compelled to do so on behalf of the insurance industry, as he has made a serious allegation of fundamental dishonesty within it. I remind the House that I myself have stood trial in the USA on a charge that would have got me 24 years in the slammer, and was acquitted. At issue was the integrity and honesty of the British insurance industry, for which I signed the audit certificate that led to the ultimate creation of Equitas. The noble Lord should remember that we are a very public arena, and that there are many in the world with other motives who will look to get any crumb of comfort that they can to mount an action that would lead to a financial advantage for them.

The issue on which I was arraigned in the Justice Courts in New York was that, with the fundamental insolvency of Lloyd’s of London totally at issue, I had signed an audit certificate that said it was solvent when it was not. I had seven days’ non-stop interrogation on the subject, but I won. I would like to go on the record to this gathering, for the outside world as well, about why I won so that we may not find that we are undermining the integrity and financial security of the insurance industry on which this scheme will depend. There is no point in us busting the world of the insurance industry for the sake of the Bill and getting nothing.

The point was that I had signed an audit certificate to say that Lloyd’s of London was solvent and could meet all its liabilities, at a time when most people believed that it could not. I relied upon Section 18(1) of the Insolvency Act, which by the greatest irony I wrote when I was assistant to Sir Kenneth Cork in drafting it. The Act makes very specific statements about what justifies a claim for solvency, and I claimed that those conditions were met in the case of Lloyd’s. The ultimate proof that it was is the fact that Equitas, whose creation by Lloyd’s of London I chaired, has been sold to Warren Buffett for an enormous amount of money, with a guarantee that he will fulfil Equitas’s entire liabilities. In the process, he will pick up about £3 billion in pocket money for himself, and good luck to him.

The events of those days cast a very long shadow. The noble Lord, Lord Howarth, may be right in his comment that there was dishonesty in the loss of documentation and the avoidance of liability by those devious means, but there is no question of integrity in the industry with which we are dealing. It is adequately funded and has adequate backing, and it is completely solvent for the discharge of all the liabilities that we want to meet, including those that we are discussing in the Bill. It would be an outrageous act of complete disregard for the facts of history and the integrity of the industry if we were to cast any doubts on its ability to stand behind its liabilities. The issue is that there are these liabilities but there are the reserves in the world for them—you just have to find the key to unlock them, and the Bill is a wonderful part of the process of doing that. There is no question of the integrity of the industry regarding its solvency.

[Lord Howarth of Newport]

I hope that the noble Lord will accept that I did not in any way impugn the general integrity of the industry, let alone cast doubt on its solvency or its capacity to meet its obligations. I asserted, and I believe this to be correct, that there were within that industry at one time people who behaved dishonestly and, because it was convenient to them, allowed that documentation to go missing.

[Lord James of Blackheath]

I thank the noble Lord for that. I hope that he will appreciate that my concern was that I did not want to start the forthcoming Session by doing the perp walk down the middle of a 747 on an extradition order back to the USA.

[Baroness Masham of Ilton]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for what he has done for these unfortunate people, but I very much hope that there will be an increase in research. If there is a will, I am sure that there will be a way of finding a cure.

Mesothelioma Bill [HL]

Lord James of Blackheath Excerpts

Wednesday 17th July 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord James of Blackheath]

My Lords, before the Minister replies, I should like to return to a point that came up in Committee and to try to set the industry context in which these misunderstandings, particularly those of the noble Lord, Lord Browne, are occurring. I should declare my interests. I was an elected member of the Council of Lloyd’s throughout the whole six years of its rescue; I was in the somewhat unhappy position of being chairman of its audit committee for those six years; and, finally, I was chairman of the committee that created Equitas. I have twice stood trial in America for the fraudulent signing of the audit certificate of Lloyd’s, of which I was fortunately acquitted each time, as it was a 25-year mandatory sentence. I therefore have some perspective on these affairs.

The noble Lord, Lord Browne, has a fundamental misunderstanding. There is no such thing as an insurance industry in the context in which all these liabilities were first conceived. Insurance companies do not exist. They have morphed into what is now, effectively, a vast international reinsurance market, where all these liabilities have been swept up and eventually reinsured with each other until they are all divided up against the entire global insurance market. Lloyd’s itself is now wholly owned by Berkshire Hathaway and the negotiations will, therefore, have to be entirely with Berkshire Hathaway and its chairman—good luck in getting charity from him.

The context, therefore, is not that there are a lot of companies waiting to have separate negotiations. You have to hold negotiations with something like Swiss Re, as it will represent the entire financial community which has come together to provide a collective bond to underwrite, first of all, Lloyd’s, and then everywhere else. The negotiation is very difficult for the Minister to undertake and it is in that context that I know he will now answer us.

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords for tabling these amendments. I will start with those relating to the rate of payment and then I will turn to the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, on the recovery of payments over £110,000. The amendments tabled by the noble Lords, Lord McKenzie and Lord Wigley, and the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, seek to ensure a minimum level of scheme payment at either 100% or 80% of the value of an average mesothelioma civil damages claim. I completely understand and appreciate that noble Lords would like to see payment levels that are closer to, if not equal to or above, those of average civil damages. Equally, I take from our debates that I have noble Lords’ full support in wanting to guarantee that we get the maximum possible payment for people who, through no fault of their own, clearly cannot bring a case against an employer or their employer’s insurers. As we have often discussed, the funds to provide these payments are to be raised through a levy imposed on the active insurance market. The amount of levy to be imposed, and consequently the amount we can pay eligible people, has been determined following considerable work and negotiation.

Perhaps I may pick up the point about incentives made by the noble Lord, Lord Howarth. We have not made that argument. To the extent that it has appeared in some of the earlier texts on this Bill, I think it reflects a shape that was somewhat different when that argument might have applied. We have not made it. It is not relevant to this particular scheme. The noble Lord, Lord Browne, made the point in reverse. I actually give the credit for the 130% to the noble Baroness, Lady Donaghy, who proposed it originally. I have taken that point in a somewhat different way. That is what has driven the discussions with the FCA and led to its much tighter determination to have an effective incentive for insurance companies to do the tracing that they should do and to ramp up the tracing effect.

We have a duty here to do our best to ensure that costs are not passed on willy-nilly to British industry and that the levy works in that way. At that time, many of the insurers were not necessarily in the business on the same scale that they are today. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Browne, has asked for a full analysis. My noble friend Lord James gave him a picture of the kind of capital pools we are talking about. That is what insurance essentially is, with companies acting as agents. It is extraordinarily hard, but there is already a big split—I do not have reliable figures: I thought I had, but they are not reliable enough to quote in public—between a large number of run-off companies that are not active anymore, many of which are in run-off, which is the polite way of saying they have given up administration, because of some of the liabilities that they took. That needs to be monitored, which is difficult to do. There is also the matter of the market share of these companies. They may have been active for 50 years, but their market share may have changed dramatically. There is also the fact that some may have kept very good records while others have not, leading to a double whammy effect. Those that have paid up, because they have really good records, are probably those from which we are trying to take more money through this levy. I do not have a market analysis of the kind that the noble Lord, Lord Browne, wants, but I am confident in saying that nobody else has either.

Let us move on to where we have got to. Thanks to the combined and consistent pressure on the insurance industry from both the Government and noble Lords, we have secured what I could call a reluctant agreement from insurers that the scheme payments will now be set at 75% of average civil compensation. I emphasise again the important role played by noble Lords in getting that outcome. I am grateful for that. I have already talked about the different assumptions of the Government and the industry regarding the volume of applications. The insurers have based their calculations on their own figures, which they think will require a levy of close to 3% of their gross written premium.

This has been a tough negotiation and even those with whom the Government were negotiating have had a tough job persuading others in that industry that there is an affordable package here. We want more, but this is a significant move from the insurance industry. If we could pay people more, we would, but this is a balancing act. If we were to go up to 80% or 100%, we would be very concerned about the costs being passed straight on to British industry. Indeed, a key concern that I have had about the structure of the scheme is that that should not happen, or that the risks of it happening should be minimised, and that is what the smoothing mechanism for the first four years is about. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Browne, will not like me saying this but there could be delay and delay and a full renegotiation is quite a painful process, as I know he will understand better than virtually anyone else.

On the point about the 3% made by the noble Lord, Lord Wills, I have been fully on the record since the beginning of the afternoon about the two points relating to the CPI and, more importantly, about our intention to review the matter at the end of the smoothing period. I hope that he appreciates how far that goes towards meeting his concerns.

Your Lordships have been very generous in what they have said about this matter but I think that a real expression of gratitude here would be if the noble Lord did not call a vote on this. That is the kind of gratitude that I understand and appreciate.

Before I close, I shall turn quickly to the amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, which would allow the scheme to recover a scheme payment already paid only if the amount of the payment was above £110,000. Clause 4 is intended to allow the scheme to recover any payment, or part payment, in specified circumstances. Those specified circumstances will form part of the regulations setting up the scheme and will be debated in due course. However, the intention is that a payment that has been made in error will be subject to repayment. This amendment would allow the scheme to recover a payment made in error only if that payment was above £110,000. Payments of £110,000 or less could never be recovered.

If someone receives a payment and it is subsequently established that the payment was made in error or obtained as a result of some fraud or misrepresentation—it does not happen very often but there are one or two examples—it is right that the person who received that sort of payment should be asked to repay it, regardless of the level of the payment. It would not be appropriate to allow someone to keep any payment if it had been established that they were not eligible for it. It would clearly be unfair to allow one person to keep a payment of £110,000 but to recover a payment of £110,000 and a penny paid to someone else.

It may be that the noble Lord’s amendment is intended to address the recovery of social security benefits and government lump sums from scheme payments, but the amendment as drafted does not achieve that. Provision for compensation recovery is dealt with in Clause 11 and Part 1 of Schedule 1, although I acknowledge that, like one or two other bits of the Bill, they are somewhat impenetrable.

The noble Lord’s intention may be to prevent the scheme administrator reducing scheme payments in order to offset the cost of repaying recoverable benefits and lump sums to the Secretary of State of £110,000 or less. Recovery of benefits legislation applies where a person makes any payment to or in respect of another person in consequence of an accident, injury or disease and specified social security benefits or lump-sum payments have been paid in respect of the same incident. This is the basic principle of not receiving money or being compensated twice—the use of the word “compensation” here is more casual than legal—and we believe that that principle should apply here.

The other effect is that a person could receive a scheme payment plus benefits and a lump sum. That would mean that some people could well end up in a more advantageous position than someone receiving the full amount of compensation directly from an employer or traced insurer, which clearly cannot be right. I appreciate the noble Lord’s intention to maximise the amount that people with mesothelioma can receive but this is simply not the way to achieve that end. Therefore, I urge him not to press the amendment.

Mesothelioma Bill [HL]

Lord James of Blackheath Excerpts

Wednesday 17th July 2013 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord James of Blackheath]

28: After Clause 16, insert the following new Clause—
“Establishing additional schemes
The Secretary of State shall by regulation establish another scheme in relation to long-latency asbestos-related diseases in current and retired members of the Armed Forces.”

[Lord James of Blackheath]

My Lords, the sole purpose of this amendment is to make sure that we do not lose track of the very important but parallel issue of asbestosis that affects members of the fighting services. I remind noble Lords of the amendments made some six years ago by the former Government that were very much against the interests of former officers and servicemen, particularly in the Royal Navy. There was a very bad record of asbestos-related illness, particularly on ships such as HMS “Furious”, HMS “Albion” and, above all, the Royal Yacht “Britannia”, which was a floating death-trap.

The unfortunate consequences of the amendments made six years ago were that the amount of compensation one was entitled to was reduced very drastically; in addition, the period of claim was limited so severely that it could not possibly allow for the inevitable eventual development of the disease and the justification for a claim. Armed Forces people have been very poorly treated in this and although we are talking here of a different branch of asbestosis, I remind your Lordships that in the insurance world they would not make that distinction. Nobody ever wrote a policy for mesothelioma on its own any more than they wrote one for asbestosis without embracing the generality of it. This is an important factor that has sometimes been forgotten in this debate.

In the matter of the Armed Forces, these people have been left exposed—to a greater or lesser degree—to all the consequences we have been talking about that are associated with this disease. They are going to be somewhat perplexed when they find out that the Government have gone out of their way to pass this splendid Bill to help sufferers of a different form of asbestosis while doing nothing whatever to amend the drastic reductions made six years ago to the terms available to servicemen.

I was very grateful for a joint meeting between the Minister’s department and the MoD, from which I came away with the great expectation that there would be a thorough analysis of data of the actual exposure and the number of cases concerned, and that this would open the way for some sort of parallel accommodation to be agreed. There was no question of dipping into this Bill’s pot to pass money over but there was the suggestion of perhaps a separate pot being arrived at by the Ministry of Defence, which could help to close the gap between the have-nots of the Armed Forces and the haves who will benefit from this Bill.

The reason for this amendment is that, unfortunately, the MoD has not provided the expected data. I talked to the noble Lord, Lord West, about this matter earlier and he showed a keen interest. He was an officer on one of the ships that was greatly affected and had the responsibility of overseeing the engine room replenishment of one. He therefore regards himself as a prime candidate for the condition in time. We have not had those data and it looks as if it is the Navy that has been remiss; yet it is the Navy about which we are most concerned.

May I please send a message via the Minister to ask the Navy to stir its stumps a bit and do something about getting those data to us? We need them. The idea would then be to see what can be done to put together a programme that will not result in a Daily Mail headline such as, “Callous Government plan for the many and abandon their heroes of the seas”. We do not want that, and it would be unfair anyway. We need a commitment to do something for Armed Forces people who have had a very bad deal for the past six years. We need to do something to put it right.

I have tabled this amendment in order to keep people interested in the possibility of having that debate, which we cannot do until we know the data and what can be done. I do not wish to press this amendment tonight but I certainly wish to roll it over to Third Reading, in exactly the same wording, in the hope that by then we will have a more positive approach to how we can arrive at a solution to give some parallel improvement to the terms available to former members of the fighting services. On that basis, I urge the Minister to do whatever he can to stimulate that dialogue. I would be happy to participate in any stage of it.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord James, raised this issue with passion and commitment in Committee and, doubtless, previously. I am not sure that I understand all the detail of the proposition he is advancing and the background case but I certainly encourage him to continue with his campaign. I think that the noble Lord was seeking to advance the argument that some people are being dealt with under this Bill but that there are members of our Armed Forces who are not being dealt with on an equivalent basis. He keeps referring to asbestosis. This Bill relates to diffuse mesothelioma, which is different from asbestosis. In fact, we have just set our face against developing a scheme that has broader implications for people with asbestosis.

[Lord James of Blackheath]

I thank the noble Lord for that. I hope I made clear the distinction that I am looking at this matter from an insurance industry point of view; namely, that asbestosis covered everything and that six years ago we inadvertently disadvantaged the Armed Forces so severely that we have put them way below the benchmark that we are seeking in this Bill for sufferers of mesothelioma. A comparison is bound to be struck. Veterans’ groups are bound to pick it up and there will be people who are very unhappy to see this deficiency on their part.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for that clarification, and I accept the point. If he is comparing people with diffuse mesothelioma who are not being treated on an equivalent basis, it seems that there is a case. I think that I would hang on to my point that asbestosis is different and that we have not sought to address that in this Bill.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord James of Blackheath]

I am talking about the sufferers and the industry.

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for his amendment and assure him that I am sympathetic to his desire to provide support for current and retired members of the Armed Forces. As he would expect, however, I must reject the amendment.

This Bill’s remit is strictly mesothelioma, which was a point made by the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie. Nevertheless, I hope that it will continue to draw into the spotlight the issues highlighted by the amendment and that the momentum from this Bill will assist my noble friend as he continues to advocate on behalf of service personnel.

I remind my noble friend of the distinctive characteristics of mesothelioma that allow for a relatively straightforward and quick scheme to be established, such as its undeniable link to asbestos exposure, the lack of co-causality with other factors such as smoking, and the very short time between diagnosis of the symptoms and death. These unique elements of diffuse mesothelioma allow us to establish a scheme that will make payments quickly and efficiently.

It is important to note, too, that the mesothelioma payment scheme proposed in the Bill addresses a market failure related to employer’s liability insurance. Armed Forces personnel are not normally covered by employer’s liability insurance due to the Government self-indemnifying. It is therefore not appropriate for insurers to be required to fund payments for individuals for whom they have never received premiums. My noble friend has already indicated that he will withdraw the amendment, and I urge him to do so.

[Lord James of Blackheath]

I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 28 withdrawn.

Mesothelioma Bill [HL]

Lord James of Blackheath Excerpts

Monday 10th June 2013 Grand Committee

[Lord Freud]

I apologise to the noble Lord for cutting him off in full flow. I understand that the level of independence of the scheme administrator is of some concern and clearly it is one of the things that have prompted the amendment. I can reassure the noble Lord that whoever the Secretary of State makes arrangements with to administer the scheme will be bound by agreements to comply with the scheme rules and departmental standards of implementation and administration. However, I am attracted to the idea of having some oversight of the scheme set out more formally. We could, for example, put something about reviewing and monitoring the scheme in the scheme rules and set this out in more detail in the arrangements for the scheme administration. I am minded to do more work on this to consider further whether we should bring forward an amendment on oversight of the scheme. I am not able to agree to the amendment today because I need to do the work first, but I would be grateful if I could consult the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, and get his wisdom on this. I shall then come back to noble Lords at a later stage. On that basis, I urge him to withdraw the amendment.

[Lord James of Blackheath]

I will make one small comment about subsection (2) of the new clause proposed by Amendment 32: there are no longer any active insurers for asbestosis. You are really talking about the reinsurers. They are the people you should seek to have represented.

[Lord Freud]

I am most grateful for that point. We shall bear it in mind.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Howarth of Newport]

My Lords, Amendments 40 and 45 in this group relate to the possibility of additional schemes being established. They would introduce that possibility into the Bill; perhaps I should say that they would clarify what has already been hinted at and may already be in the Bill. Amendment 40 would empower the Secretary of State to levy employers’ liability insurers in order to fund additional schemes comparable to the diffuse mesothelioma payment scheme. Amendment 45 would empower the Secretary of State to establish by regulation other schemes in relation to long-latency, asbestos-related diseases.

The difficulties of establishing entitlement to insurance payments after many years, when the employer has gone and the documentation is missing, are not confined to the circumstances of mesothelioma. If sufferers from asbestos-related cancer or asbestosis face the same barriers to securing compensation, if we call it that—perhaps we had better say “financial relief”—is it not right that they should be supported by analogous schemes?

I spoke at Second Reading about those two particular diseases as well as diffuse pleural thickening, pleural plaques, pleural effusion and rounded atelectasis. All of these are diseases of the lung and the pleura caused by inhalation of asbestos fibres. The Minister spoke encouragingly in that debate, saying:

“The issue of individuals who have developed other asbestos-related diseases through negligence or breach of statutory duty and are unable to bring a civil claim for damages of course needs to be addressed”.—[Official Report, 20/5/13; col. 690.]

Indeed, justice requires that where people have contracted one or another of these terrible diseases as a result of the negligence of their employer causing them to be exposed to asbestos fibres, surely they ought to be supported on a comparable basis.

Interestingly, the department has just produced a document entitled, Estimates of the Impact of Extending the Scope of the Payment Scheme in the Mesothelioma Bill to Include Other Asbestos-Related Diseases and Other Non-Asbestos Work Related Diseases. It expects that there will be some 2,000 asbestos-related lung cancer deaths yearly, 725 newly assessed cases of asbestosis and 821 cases of non-malignant pleural disease—around 3,500 cases a year of one sort or another. The department acknowledges that it may be more difficult to establish a causal occupational link where these other diseases are concerned and estimates that the levy on insurers to fund a scheme for asbestos-related diseases other than mesothelioma, if the new scheme were to be constituted on the same principle as the DMPS, would amount to £478 million compared with the £322 million cost of the levy for the mesothelioma scheme. That is a significantly larger cost than that of the mesothelioma scheme, but I think it is not impossible to contemplate at some point in the future. I certainly do not think that new schemes should be funded via the DMPS itself, nor do I think that anybody is in a position to create a new scheme immediately. However, it should be done in the fullness of time—indeed, as soon as possible. Therefore, while we are legislating to provide the basis for the diffuse mesothelioma payment scheme, it seems sensible that we should also be clear that we are legislating to make provision for further analogous schemes to be established on future occasions. I beg to move.

[Lord James of Blackheath]

My Lords, the problems of the Navy in this regard persist for that service. An MoD meeting has been called for 10 o’clock tomorrow morning. Will the Minister be present at that meeting? It would be helpful to know that.

[Lord Freud]

I regret that I am not invited.

[Lord James of Blackheath]

I think it will be harder to make progress without the Minister. It seems to me that three very significant problems are emerging in any dialogue with the MoD at present, and they will not go away very easily. Each of them has been shadowed in the discussions this afternoon. For a start, of course, this is a compensation payment for a dying sailor. There is no argument about it. There is no way you can call it anything else. We are here talking of it not being a compensation payment and this gives rise to a total misunderstanding in the minds of the MoD people to whom I have been talking because they seem to think that what we have here is a great big government-funded handout that they can dip their hands in and have a share for their sailors.

Of course, the downside is that in saying no to them, we run the risk that this clever and inspired programme to force the compensation programme through for non-compensation payments will invite the dreadful comparison that the Government, who are concerned to prepare catch-up payments to all the sufferers of this disease for whom they can, should include responsibility for the Navy, which has deliberately discarded any responsibility for payments for people who are suffering similarly. I cannot imagine a more unfortunate juxtaposition.

The MoD has to understand that if it wants a solution to this problem, that must come out of its own resources. It cannot come from this scheme. When I first realised this, simply on the grounds that I did not know the answer I tabled my strange Amendment 47, which says that we have a problem for which we need an answer, and that we must find it when we get a sensible dialogue going with the MoD—which may or may not start tomorrow morning.

There are two other big problems with the MoD. First, it will have a hugely high percentage of what I call the household contamination problem. The sailors and workers will have gone home at night to their wives with their dirty washing from working in the boiler rooms of the intensely asbestos-lagged warships. We are going to have a huge problem of a different nature there.

Secondly, the MoD cannot run an insurance industry-based solution because it cannot insure its ships or people; that has to come from a different pot and a different source. It is absolutely unacceptable that we do not have a solution for the sailors in parallel with this, but it is not going to be compatible with this Bill. Forgive me for having put the clause in, which is completely wrong and irrelevant, but it really is a desperate call: we have got to have something instead. I want to put a marker down that the whole House must work towards this.

We must be totally intolerant of any fudge that does not give the Navy a fair deal. There are far too many affected persons out there. The way to get the MoD really interested in this is to threaten to write to the Queen and tell her how many of her crew of Royal Yacht “Britannia” have been killed by it. That will get the MoD’s undivided attention. I will continue to run that one.

I will withdraw my amendment as it stands, quite clearly, because I cannot run it here. I just wanted to leave it there for the moment. It is a hole into which I have got to get something put before we are through with this.

[Lord Alton of Liverpool]

My Lords, briefly, I support the two speeches which have just been made, not least because I agree with the noble Lord, Lord James, that there are other groups of people outside the scope of this Bill who are clearly looking to the Minister, who has done such a good job for this group of people: the 300 or so of the 2,200 who have unmet claims. He has done such a good job in dealing with this that there is the raised hope and expectation that other groups, whether they are in our Armed Forces or other groups entirely—such as those who have suffered from asbestos-related diseases of the kind to which the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, referred in his remarks—who will also be hoping that the noble Lord will in due course be able to come forward with other measures that might to meet some of those hopes and expectations.

I feel some sympathy with the Minister in this situation. I think it was William Wilberforce who was criticised by William Hazlitt for not dealing with problems of children who were being sent down into the mines; it would take Lord Shaftesbury to do that in due course. One of those who was defending Wilberforce, I think it was Henry Thornton, said it was rather like criticising Christopher Columbus for discovering the United States but also for not going on to discover Australia and New Zealand as well. The Minister is in that slightly invidious position at the moment. People will unfairly criticise him for not solving all the problems of the whole of mankind. What he is doing in the context of this Bill is incredibly noteworthy and all of us pay tribute to him for that. However, he should not neglect the points made by the two noble Lords, because they were well made and these amendments raise the point that there will be unfinished business even once this Bill has passed into law.

[Lord James of Blackheath]

Perhaps I may ask the Minister if he will have a meeting with me after I have been to the MoD so that I can get his advice and guidance on what to do next?

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, our Amendment 46 is in this group. I will say at the start that I thoroughly support the amendments of my noble friend Lord Howarth. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Alton, that the Minister has almost made a rod for his own back in raising hopes and expectations. Those are challenges that he will have to face, and I am sure he is well up to the task. The noble Lord, Lord James, should not apologise for having brought forward his amendment. He is right to say that what he seeks is not an insurance-based solution, but there are issues around inviting comparisons with the progress that has been made.

As we have discussed, the payments scheme relates to those diagnosed with diffuse mesothelioma. It therefore excludes other asbestos-related diseases such as asbestos-related lung cancer and asbestosis. It also excludes other work-related, non-asbestos diseases such as pneuomoconiosis. The DWP’s June 2013 analysis quotes the HSE data on industrial diseases, which has an annual estimate of sufferers of asbestos-related diseases of some 3,500—that excludes those suffering from mesothelioma—and of non-asbestos-related industrial diseases of some 4,200. Many of these will face the same problem in identifying a negligent employer, or an employer liability insurer. The DWP’s June note acknowledges that many of the diseases covered do not share the same characteristics as mesothelioma, and that their severity and progression may vary, depending on the heaviness of exposure to asbestos.

It also highlights the fact that, for example, only a small proportion of asbestos-related lung cancers are compensated through government schemes, because of the range of different causes of lung cancer that mask an asbestos cause. Notwithstanding this, and perhaps somewhat strangely, in computing the effect of extending the scheme, it has been assumed in the data that the same proportion of those with diffuse mesothelioma who can access the scheme proposed by the Bill will be able to access an extended scheme, that the same level of scheme payment will be received, and that the same amount of benefit will be recovered. Those are fairly broad-brush assumptions, to say the least. In resisting the amendment, the Minister will doubtless point to the costs of bringing forward an extension of the scheme. On the basis of their estimates over a 10-year period, they suggest that there will be 5,100 successful applicants for other asbestos-related diseases, and 6,100 non-asbestos work-related diseases. There will be an additional levy on insurers of £478 million and £564 million respectively.

At face value, the figures are shocking. It is not so much the amounts as the suggestion that over 10 years, some 11,200 people will miss out. By how much will depend on benefit recovery arrangements, but they could miss out to the tune of £1 billion. If the concentration were just on the other asbestos-related diseases, not expanding the scheme will deny 5,100 people, who will miss out just because an employer has gone out of business or cannot be located and a relevant insurer cannot be established.

The amendment requires the Secretary of State to bring forward proposals within a year to establish other schemes to cover these other diseases. On reflection, limiting this to diseases covered by the 1979 Act may not be the most appropriate approach, and we might seek a different definition on Report. We have been clear that we do not want the pursuit of broader coverage to hold up the scheme of diffuse mesothelioma, and there is no reason why acceptance of the amendment, or my noble friend’s variations, should cause this to happen. It is accepted that it will be difficult to graft on to the mesothelioma scheme the tariff approach, given the varying degrees of suffering that some of the other diseases entail, and that there may be convoluted issues around causation. Therefore, while continuing to acknowledge the merits of the mesothelioma scheme, we should no longer look aside from those people—many thousands on the Government’s own figures—who face terrible suffering because of the negligence or breach of statutory duty of an employer. This is all the more important where access to the state lump sum and social security support is more difficult, as it is for some.

The Minister has come thus far and we have supported and congratulated him on doing so. Indeed, he has expressed sympathy for a broader scheme. Accepting the thrust of these amendments would add to that journey, which I beg him to undertake.

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for these amendments, and clearly I am sympathetic to the desire to provide for as many people as possible. Let me deal with the amendments tabled by the noble Lords, Lord Howarth and Lord McKenzie, and the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock, in the first instance, and then perhaps I may turn to the amendment tabled by my noble friend Lord James regarding members of the Armed Forces.

I recognise the wish to provide for other groups of people who fall foul of poor record-keeping by the insurance industry and so cannot bring a claim for civil damages. There could be another scheme for these people in the future, but as the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, has just acknowledged, it cannot and will not be this particular scheme. It is neither possible nor realistic to extend it in this way, and that is the reason I must reject these amendments.

The remit of the Bill is strictly related to mesothelioma. However, like many noble Lords, I hope that the momentum generated by this legislation will not dissipate and that further work will be done in the future. Perhaps I may explain why we cannot be flexible on this. I should start by reminding noble Lords about the distinctive characteristics of mesothelioma. The Bill allows for a relatively straightforward and quick scheme to be established. The key points are mesothelioma’s undeniable link to asbestos exposure and lack of co-causality with other factors such as smoking. The unique elements of diffuse mesothelioma allow us to establish a tariff payment scheme of this nature. A streamlined scheme like this would not work for other long-tail diseases. The law of causation is favourable to mesothelioma victims in the sense that it is an indivisible injury. It does not matter who exposed the victim or how many people exposed him, they will all be jointly and severally liable for the same damage. This allows for simplicity when assessing whether someone is eligible for a payment. Assessing liability for other diseases where the causation rules are not the same would involve a degree of complexity that this scheme has not been designed to allow for.

I join noble Lords in their hope that, in the future, other people will be provided for. Until such time, there remain state payments that sufferers of other long-tail diseases can apply for, such as payments made under the 1979 and 2008 Acts. I hope that I have explained and made it clear why this scheme will succeed only if it deals exclusively with mesothelioma, and I urge the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.

Let me now turn my attention to the amendment tabled by my noble friend Lord James of Blackheath regarding the creation of a scheme to cover retired or current members of the Armed Forces who were exposed to asbestos and have since developed a related disease. I should clarify that, when I denied the 10 o’clock meeting, one of my representatives sitting behind me today will be at that meeting, and so I will be given good intelligence on what happens.

[Lord James of Blackheath]

Can we have an indication by paw of who will be attending the meeting?

[Lord Freud]

The paw has been raised. I am more than happy to hold a meeting with the noble Lord after that meeting if he so desires.

[Lord James of Blackheath]

The noble Lord is taking a big risk in sending the best looking member of his staff to the Navy.

[Lord Freud]

The noble Lord must be very careful about making remarks like that. I think that we should strike them from the record.

The noble Lord was clearly referring in particular to those working in the boiler rooms of those three ships—HMS “Britannia”, HMS “Furious” and HMS “Albion”—a great many of whom would have been exposed to asbestos during the course of their service. We all in this Committee, I know, are deeply sympathetic to a tragic situation. However, as the noble Lord acknowledges, it is not possible for this Bill to be the solution for that, mainly because the MoD was not and is not covered by employer liability insurance. It would not be appropriate to raise finds for such a scheme from the employer liability insurance markets; they are entirely different issues. I know that the noble Lord has particular issues with the arrangements which the MoD has in place for compensation, so I will not go into those. They are dealt with by the MoD and I suspect that they will be the subject of conversation tomorrow.

[Lord Freud]

My intelligence on this comes from my noble friend Lord James, who told me that the estimate was 300 people. However, I stand to be corrected by him.

[Lord James of Blackheath]

The provisional estimate is up to 300 dead already and 180 contaminated. However, the figure we need to be concerned about is the number of wives who have got it, too.

[Lord Freud]

The noble Lord has put that on the record. Clearly, there is a difference in the sense that the MoD as a public authority does not use employer liability; it effectively self-insures. The noble Lord is concerned about the terms of when it pays compensation; I know that he is looking to address that issue with the MoD.

I share the concern of noble Lords in the Committee to help to provide for as many people as possible who have a terrible disease through absolutely no fault of their own. However, this scheme is addressed precisely at one part of that. It is not stretchable in that way.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Freud]

Regrettably, I am not in a position to make any kind of commitment along those lines. We responded to the consultation document which the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, launched, and our considered view was that this was the most urgent thing to tackle. That is the only commitment that I am in a position to make today. Having urged other noble Lords to withdraw or not to press their amendments, I ask the noble Lord, Lord James, not to press his amendment either.

[Lord James of Blackheath]

For the sake of accuracy, I will just correct the figures to this extent. The Navy’s figures include subcontracted staff in naval ports.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord James of Blackheath]

I might be able to ease the noble Lord’s concern on this. I believe that when the major reinsurances were written, they were limited as to the dates when an infection was identified and the reinsurance applied only to the names of those who had a registered claim at that time. That was all that was relevant for a claim; there is no question about that. Lloyd’s of London did not buy its first computer until 1986. It has nothing that goes back to this period.

[Lord Howarth of Newport]

I am always disposed to defer to the noble Lord as he has a depth of knowledge on this matter that I do not think is matched by the rest of the Committee. However, if Lloyd’s of London did not get a computer until a rather late date in the history of that august market, it none the less had brown cardboard files. It seems to me that strong procedural safeguards and impeccable record-keeping are always central to the upholding of property rights and the protection of people who enter into contracts. I cannot see how employer’s liability insurers at any phase of their history could ever have been justified in allowing the documents to disappear. There might have been a fire in the warehouse but we have not been told that there has been such a fire at any of these insurers. Other than in an extraordinary circumstance of that kind, it must be normal and basic practice to keep the documentation and to pass it on to the successor insurers and reinsurers. I cannot see how anything else could have been appropriate.

We are looking here at a spectrum of wrongdoing that runs from inefficiency and muddle through negligence to, very possibly, deliberate criminality in some places. Indeed, the scale on which the documentation has gone missing suggests that there could have been widespread criminal intention on the part of some people in an earlier generation of insurers. I say “an earlier generation”; they may no longer be active in the market but many of them may still be extant as individuals.

Another recent major scandal has occurred in terms of record-keeping. I refer to the sub-prime lenders in their Gadarene rush towards 2008. The banks, in issuing huge numbers of mortgages and eagerly selling them on, took to neglecting procedural safeguards. The combination of disregard for procedural safeguards with fraudulence led to the catastrophe of 2008 and in the years following, from which we continue to suffer. It reached a point where, with millions of mortgages in default, the banks abandoned the attempt to examine individual documentation to certify that a particular person owed a certain amount of money on a mortgage, which was the asset being sold on, and took to what was known in the trade as “robo-signing”. Instead of examining the individual records, they hired a person simply to sign masses of these documents without even examining the records.

The temptation for businesses not to keep full, accurate and proper records when it is convenient to do so clearly can be very great. We do not suppose—I do not think we do; I certainly do not—that the banks which were guilty of that systematic failure of proper record-keeping should be able to walk away from the scene of what they did and just get away with funding a token scheme. Equally, it seems to me that in the interests of justice and for exemplary purposes, there should be a proper investigation of what went wrong with the employer’s liability insurers. Of course, ELTO has been created and that improves the methodology of tracing claims and liability. However, a disastrous failure has occurred in this regard for a great many people. As I say, it seems to me that this is a major scandal. That is the reason why I have tabled Amendment 43—to require the Secretary of State to establish a commission to investigate and report on what happened in this history of inadequate record-keeping, which I do not think anything can possibly have justified. I beg to move.

Mesothelioma Bill [HL]

Lord James of Blackheath Excerpts

Wednesday 5th June 2013 Grand Committee

[Lord Howarth of Newport]

My Lords, the two amendments in this group, Amendments 7 and 8, would extend eligibility under the scheme to two classes of people who, as I understand it, are not eligible under the Bill as drafted and the scheme as proposed. The two classes of people are those who are self-employed and were exposed to asbestos and in the course of time contracted mesothelioma, and family members who have contracted this appalling and fatal disease as a result of doing the laundry of an employed person who came back home with asbestos fibres on his workwear. There will have been many people who were self-employed in the building trades and the construction industry over the years. I do not know whether the department has any information as to the numbers. It would be helpful to the Committee if the Minister were in due course able to give us an idea of the scale of this problem.

The Minister may take a severe view of the case of a self-employed person who did not insure. He may argue that it is unfair to insurers that they should pay a levy into a scheme to compensate someone who failed to insure when it was his own responsibility as a self-employed person to do so. To that, I would say that the whole Bill is based on rough justice; competent, respectable insurers are required to pay for the dereliction of their colleagues in the insurance industry who lost or even wilfully destroyed documents. There is also rough justice for the recipients, who are invited to be content with 70% of the amount that they might receive in an award from a court. On the other hand, the self-employed and their dependants suffer exactly the same as employed people and their dependants. There seems to me to be a strong moral case for treating them alike.

The Minister may pleasantly surprise me, but if he does take that severe view of the case of those who did not insure on their own behalf, what of self-employed people who died insured but whose documents have gone missing? The insurance company no longer has them and, although there is tentative evidence that a self-employed person was insured, it is not substantial and the case cannot be proved. Why should not a person in that predicament be covered by the scheme? They and their dependants are in exactly the same boat in terms of suffering and loss as employed people.

Let us also consider the predicament of wives, partners, daughters—family members, people in the same household—who contracted the disease because they were doing the washing. I am personally aware of the cases of three people where that has occurred. It is entirely possible that someone could catch mesothelioma through washing the workwear of their partner or parent where the employed person has not, although they may contract it later. The dependant, the family member, the person caught in that situation, is equally the victim of an employer’s neglect. It seems morally wrong not to include such people in the scheme on the technicality that the person who was the employee has himself not been diagnosed. Insurers ought to be willing to embrace those people within the scheme.

People in that predicament are eligible for compensation under the 2008 statutory scheme, I believe, but the difficulty is that payments under the scheme are very small by comparison with payments that would be made under the scheme that we are now considering. Again, it would be helpful if the Minister or his officials could give us any idea of the number of people in that second category to which Amendment 8 is addressed.

If the Minister says that the insurers should not be obliged to extend the scheme to support people in either of those groups, I should be grateful if he will tell us what the Government will do to create justice for them. I beg to move.

[Lord James of Blackheath]

My Lords, before I comment on what the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, said, I declare my interests. I was an elected member of the council of Lloyd’s throughout its entire rescue period; I was chairman of the audit committee of Lloyd’s of London; and I was chairman of the committee that created Equitas, which effectively brought about a solution. I am afraid that I have lived and slept with this thing for rather too long in my life.

The noble Lord, Lord Howarth, is quite correct, but he opens up a much bigger issue, which I do not think that he has spotted. That is that in the realm of self-employed people, the Navy did not necessarily re-equip its own boiler rooms on the three vessels which have had the biggest ever death rates: HMS “Britannia”, HMS “Albion” and HMS “Furious”. Therefore, all those people who were self-employed and contracted in would come entirely within the compass of the noble Lord’s concern, and I support that.

I pre-warned the Minister that I have now set the Admiralty on the issue of the effects of the Bill for it and its former members. The noble Lord, Lord West, who was here just now, asked me to pass on the message that he is going to be very upset if he is allowed to die without being given his handout. He was one of only two commanding officers ever to be given a permit to sit in the boiler room during a major reconstruction, so he is almost certainly at high risk. The other one, who was the commander of the “Britannia”, has already died.

There is a very serious concern here regarding the naval forces. As the Minister knows as a result of our meeting the other day, there was a discussion in the House on 24 November 2008 led by the noble Baroness, Lady Taylor of Bolton, on behalf of the armed services at that time. She responded to my concern about the repeal of Section 10 of the Crown Proceedings Act 1947 and its replacement by the Crown Proceedings (Armed Forces) Act 1987, which had the effect of precluding any claim for asbestosis against any single person of the Armed Forces from anyone who had failed to put in a claim for an identifiable disease at that time. There were only 10 years in which such a disease could be identified, but we are talking here of a 30-year incubation period. In the region of 200 members of the Armed Forces are currently still at huge risk—it is virtually an inevitability—of suffering from this terrible disease and absolutely nil provision or obligation rests on the armed services to look after them or their dependants. I think that somewhere down the line we need to alter this Bill to allow a once-and-for-all, final opportunity for justice on their behalf. I shall return with an amendment to this effect once I have had my discussions with the Admiralty, but for the moment I just want to put down a marker.

[Lord Wills]

My Lords, I support my noble friend’s amendments on this issue. I first became aware of this terrible disease shortly after I was elected as the Member of Parliament for Swindon North. A man came to my surgery in the exact circumstances that my noble friend has described. He was absolutely distraught because his wife had just died from this terrible disease, which she had contracted from washing his clothes. Every day, he came back from the railway works in Swindon and gave his work clothes to his wife. She washed them and, as a result, she died from this disease. It seems completely wrong, as a matter of natural justice, that people in these circumstances should be denied any access to justice under the terms of this Bill.

Like my noble friend, I hope that the Minister will surprise us pleasantly by accepting these amendments, although I fear that we may be disappointed. If we are disappointed and the Minister relies—as I understand he may well be advised to do—on the dangers of creating a precedent by accepting these amendments, I hope that he will be able to say in exactly what circumstances he thinks such a precedent will be created. Given the very particular nature of this disease, its particular virulence and the very particular way in which it is contracted, can he say precisely what precedents he thinks will be created by accepting my noble friend’s amendments?

In the mean time, I hope that the Minister will at least agree to look again at these amendments, which seem to be absolutely consistent with the basic principles of natural justice, and I very much hope that they will find their way into this Bill in one way or another.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Freud]

That is a very important point. As the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, was querying, some people will appear to be self-employed where the reality is that that was an artificial, tax-driven construct. In that case, if they can demonstrate that in practice they were acting like an employee, they would be eligible for a payment under the scheme. That is specifically allowed for.

The noble Lord, Lord Howarth, asked about estimates of exposure to people who have been washing laundry—secondary exposure in the household. We do not have those data, I fear. We have data on general environmental exposure, which would include that, and I can give that information to the noble Lord. Clearly, people who catch asbestos outside the employer liability framework can get payments under the 2008 Act. Various noble Lords thought that they were inadequate, but they are state payments established since then.

My noble friend Lord James asked about the MoD and the Admiralty in particular. The state does not have employer’s liability—

[Lord James of Blackheath]

If the noble Lord will forgive me, the state does not have a liability because it pulled the dirtiest trick of all time when it repealed the 1947 Act and effectively put people in a Catch-22 situation where they could only claim if they had already been identified with the disease at that time. It was only 10 years into the period. It was ridiculous.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Sherlock]

My Lords, I shall speak to Amendments 11 and 14 in my name and that of my noble friend Lord McKenzie of Luton, and to the other amendment in this group. Since we are in Grand Committee, I think that we may take all these amendments that have the same purpose to probe whether—and, if so, to what extent and why—it is reasonable to limit access to the scheme from the date of diagnosis.

I had intended to spend a bit of time trying to understand what the first point of diagnosis meant but, just before we came in, I glanced at the draft scheme rules and realise that this question is covered there in some detail. Where will we have the opportunity to discuss that in more detail? I would be happy to return to it at that point.

On the main issue underpinning these amendments, I, too, have had representations from those supporting people with mesothelioma concerned about their exclusion or potential exclusion from the scope of the scheme. Imposing a limitation to people diagnosed on or after 25 July 2012, which of course is more than two years after the close of the consultation, means that, as my noble friend Lord McKenzie noted at Second Reading, probably some 600 people will have died from mesothelioma during that time. As those representations have said, it seems very unfair that they should be excluded from the scheme. This is a point very well made by the noble Lord, Lord Alton, and others: the date of consultation would be a natural point. It falls to the Minister to persuade the Committee and then the House of any other date, which so far I do not think we have had.

The Minister said at Second Reading that the reason for not keeping the scheme totally open-ended is that the costs would be prohibitive. The reason for picking the particular date of 25 July, we learnt from a subsequent briefing, was that that was the point at which there would be a reasonable expectation that sufferers could get a payment and therefore relevant insurance companies could provide in their accounts for the liability that would ensue.

I wonder if the Minister could help me to understand this a bit more. What is the regulatory or legal framework under which insurers either may or may not provide for a liability at a particular date? I would also be grateful if he could explain whether he actually means reserving for a liability. If so, how is this a liability? Unlike for people who claim under the courts in the normal way, for which there clearly is a liability for which an insurer will provide in the normal way, based on the premiums and the exposure that they have had for business written, is the payment that will be made in the levy not simply in fact an annual payment rather than a liability? If so, how is it in any way covered by rules on provisioning or reserving in the accounts? I would be grateful if the Minister could explain that to me. If not, maybe he could explain where it comes from.

Whether or not the industry has to reserve, it clearly would have to plan to face a change in its cost base as a result of any decision taken at the end of the Bill, so it is worth revisiting how we got here. The noble Lord, Lord Alton, has made reference to the Accessing Compensation document issued in February 2010. He quoted the most apposite point, where the Government of the day, in the person of my noble friend Lord McKenzie, made clear that their intention was to take some action in this area. In terms of funding for the ELIB to which he referred, though, the document was brief. It said:

“One option would be for the insurance industry to provide the funding. The argument for this is that the industry has, in most cases, taken the premiums for policies that are now not being traced. The industry should therefore fund the full costs of an ELIB, including the set up and running costs”.

Well put. No other funding source, at least that I have found, was proposed in that document. In other words, if I am right, there was no option two. An impact assessment produced with that document showed that there was an assumption of an implementation date of April 2011. The document also looked at the scope of the fund and therefore the potential scale of the cost that insurers could reasonably expect to have to face, having read that document.

The impact assessment assessed costs along two axes: whether or not to include all relevant diseases or just mesothelioma, and whether simply to take people from the start of the scheme or all claims brought in the past three years. It is clear that, whether or not the extent of the liability was certain, the Government’s intention was clear at the point of going out to consultation. Furthermore, the proposals in the Bill are very much at the modest end of the spectrum of options explored within that consultation document, so it does not seem unreasonable that the insurers might well have foreseen the liability, or the cost, that they are now going to face.

Given the speeches today from my noble friend Lord Howarth of Newport, who made a very persuasive case, as did the noble Lord, Lord Alton, and the questions from the noble Baroness, Lady Masham, and my noble friend Lord Wills, not to mention the widespread concern about this point right across the House at Second Reading, if the noble Lord wishes to persuade the Committee and ultimately the House that he is to have a cut-off date for people coming in, I think that he has his work cut out to make that anything later than 10 February.

Perhaps the Minister can try to clear up a few other questions for me. First, in letting us know the source of this constraint or requirement to reserve or not reserve, can he explain how that affects the date at which an insurer could reserve and, if so, whose decision is it? Secondly, do the Government have any evidence that insurers have in fact been reserving since July 2012, the point at which the Minister is confident they were clear as to the liabilities? Finally, if the Minister is not willing to share legal advice—and I may yet be surprised on that front—can he tell us if the Government have a concern that they could be exposed to legal action were they to impose a requirement other than a July 2012 date? That would be helpful.

I remain pleased that the Government are acting on this matter and I appreciate the Minister’s commitment to it. However, as my noble friend Lord Howarth of Newport said clearly, that does not take away our responsibility in this House to ensure that the legislation is the best it possibly can be.

[Lord James of Blackheath]

Perhaps the Minister will allow me to make one last entry into this debate. I believe that I can answer part of the question asked by the noble Baroness, Lady Sherlock. I am probably the only person in this Room who has ever made a financial provision for asbestosis. I did so on the last day of December in 1998 when I signed off the creation of Equitas; £12.8 billion of assets were locked in an investment fund put together by Warburg’s, with the countersignature of the Bank of England on it, so it was pretty good. The £12.8 billion has been sitting there and can be used only for each category of settlement of claim. One category is labelled asbestosis. I left £6 billion in there, but it is £6 billion with an annual growth rate of 6%.

When Equitas was sold for a knock-down price to Warren Buffett’s Berkshire Hathaway in 2009—I hasten to add, not with my approval—he took over all the asset reserves that were left. So even after Equitas had traded for 13 years, he got a residual balance of £8 billion of my original £12.8 billion—still growing at 6% per annum. My calculation at that time was that he was left with £5 billion for asbestosis. But the £5 billion effectively included a great deal of unidentified claims, because it was largely rolling up the reinsurance claims around the world. It is very incestuous, this claiming business: everybody insures each other and they come up with these collective figures.

At the moment, my estimate is that the global reserves for asbestosis of all the insurance companies in the world are £65 billion, including all the reinsurance markets around the world as well. But they do not expect that that £65 billion will be paid out. Let us suppose that you settled Turner & Newall for £1 billion—you will not, but let us suppose you did. You would take £1 billion out of the Lloyd’s of London reserve of £5 billion and you would have £4 billion left. But immediately you would have wiped out the consequential reinsurance demands down the chain, so the whole industry would write back as profit something in the region of £15 billion to £20 billion of released reserves.

We have a huge potential gift to the insurance industry here and we must not give it away too cheaply. We can screw this insurance industry into paying what it long since has deserved to pay. Why has it not settled so far? Right through the six years of the collapse and rescue of Lloyd’s of London, the great myth was that there was a massive amount of claims arising in the USA that we had insured and that those claims were largely spurious because they had used television advertising to get people to join up. You did not have to have any illness or even to have been in an asbestos building; you were just told, “Sign up, join in, it is a free lottery ticket”—that was the advertising in America.

We were expecting, having worked at government level and failed, to get the American President to impose strict standards on the American industry to force it to have only legitimate claims. If that had happened, we would have taken billions out of our liability and saved Lloyd’s of London without the need of Equitas. It never happened, but then up comes Warren Buffett and buys it for a knockdown couple of billion. I would put a very substantial sum of money on him having a letter in his back pocket from the President, agreeing to write off those claims or to curtail them. He is going to rip out the whole of that profit. We should not sell cheap on this; there is a huge amount out there, which we can get, and we need very much to play hardball.

[Lord Howarth of Newport]

Given the noble Lord’s deep knowledge of this, since Equitas was set up to rescue Lloyd’s from the chaos caused by its exposure to asbestosis claims, Equitas must presumably have a great deal of documentation in its files. The missing documents that would enable claimants to validate their claims before the courts might conceivably, in some cases, be within those files. Are they now in the custody of the “Sage of Omaha”?

[Lord James of Blackheath]

In the main, they are in the custody of what was the Department of Trade and Industry, because it oversaw and supervised this. It should be the port of first call for that.

Your Lordships must understand that, on Lloyd’s of London and its reserves, it still has not closed the file on the “Titanic” because it was not the “Titanic” that sank. Perhaps you know that story. It was the “Olympic”, which was substituted at the last minute because it was not finished and ready to sail. On those grounds alone, Lloyd’s of London has refused to settle most of the claims on the “Titanic” ever since, because the claims were all on the wrong ship.

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

[Lord James of Blackheath]

I am sorry, but that is a true story.

We are worrying about whether we have the files on these, but Turner & Newall, which is the great case—the biggest of them all in this country—did not keep the records. We just had a general claim from Turner & Newall for everything. It was a blanket cover, which ensured that we would take any claims that came against them and sort them out according to their own merit at that time. The records that the DTI had are the best that still exist and should be taken on as part of this review. Some of them will have gone to Warren Buffett and he will be using them as part of his negotiations, probably against us. The records are not as bad as your Lordships think. They are meticulous in going back, but they are mostly blanket covers, not specific to individuals. That is the problem.

[Lord Freud]

My Lords, we could spend a lot of time on this. I was at Warburg when it helped to sort out Equitas, although I was not on that particular transaction—and I am grateful for that.

Amendment 9 would have the effect of ensuring that the scheme paid not only everyone with diffuse mesothelioma but any living dependant of a person who had died with diffuse mesothelioma at any time. Amendments 11 and 14 would have the effect that, once the scheme came into force, all living people who were diagnosed with diffuse mesothelioma on or after 10 February 2010 would be eligible for a payment from the scheme. They also provide that any living dependant of a person with diffuse mesothelioma who had died on or after that date would be eligible.

I think that the February 2010 date mentioned in these amendments is meant to be closely linked to the date when the last Government published their consultation paper Accessing Compensation: Supporting People Who Need to Trace Employers’ Liability Insurance. That was 11 February 2010, as the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie, will vividly remember. I remind noble Lords that on that date the Government were consulting on the best way forward. They were not proposing a specific course of action, so no one had any expectation that they would be likely to get any sort of payment over and above those that the Government provide for people with diffuse mesothelioma.

I would have liked to have announced the Government’s intention on paying people with the disease much sooner than 25 July 2012, when we did announce it, but the issues involved were complex. To ensure that we have got it right, we have been working intensively with stakeholders, including the insurance industry, claimant groups and solicitors, since that consultation closed to get to this solution. This took longer than I had hoped. However, when we announced on 25 July of last year that a scheme would be set up, from that date people have had a reasonable expectation that, if they are diagnosed with the disease after that date, they will receive a payment.

In addition to creating an expectation among people with mesothelioma, the announcement put insurers on notice that we intended to bring forward the scheme, giving them legal certainty and allowing them to start to reserve against the liabilities that are created by the scheme and its associative levy that they will be responsible for paying.