Renters’ Rights Bill

Lord Hunt of Wirral Excerpts

Monday 12th May 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Scott of Bybrook (Con)]

My Lords, I want to make it very clear that we will not have had six days in Committee. I quite agree with the noble Lord, Lord Shipley.

I do not feel that I can open this group without paying tribute to the late noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton. His amendments are why we are debating this important issue tonight. We will miss his insightful contribution to this Bill and to the House more broadly. We are a poorer place without him, and I send my heartfelt sympathies to his partner, his friends and his family for their loss. May his memory be a blessing.

This group follows on from a group on the previous day in Committee, but it focuses more specifically on the burden of proof applied in the determination of penalties. I will be brief, as on these Benches we simply have two questions for the Minister. I draw your Lordships’ attention to probing Amendments 145 and 152. We are concerned about the Government’s proposal to grant local housing authorities the power to determine whether a person is guilty of an offence under Section 16 without proper due process. Can the Minister kindly set out for the Committee how this provision is intended to operate in practice, and whether it will be subject to any appeal or review process?

I wish to draw attention to the principal reason for these probing amendments—the selected standard of proof. We are seeking to understand why there appears to be a lack of consistency in the standard of proof applied across different parts of the Bill. I have no doubt that many distinguished lawyers in your Lordships’ Committee will address this matter with far greater clarity and precision than I can. However, the question remains: why should different standards of proof apply within the same piece of legislation?

I appreciate that the Minister is herself not a lawyer and may wish to take some time to reflect and return to the Committee with a considered response, but can she kindly set out, either today or at a later stage, the rationale behind this apparent inconsistency? I beg to move.

[Lord Hunt of Wirral (Con)]

My Lords, I will speak to Amendments 148, 197, 200 and 242 on behalf of the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull.

First, I join my noble friend Lady Scott of Bybrook by expressing my sincere condolences to the family and friends of the late noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton. His reputation as an exceptional legal mind represents the very best that this House has to offer.

Secondly, I remind noble Lords of my own interest as a practicing solicitor.

These four amendments seek to make two substantive changes to the Bill. First, the removal of “reckless” would ensure that a landlord is guilty of an offence only if it can be proven that they wrongly relied on a ground for possession with actual knowledge of the offence. Secondly, the replacement of

“on the balance of probabilities”

with “beyond reasonable doubt” raises the standard of proof for these offences when the local authority is determining a case.

I expect that the Minister will oppose these amendments on the grounds that they will make it less easy for a local authority to find a landlord guilty of an offence. But surely the crucial point is that they would put a proper check on the incorrect prosecution of landlords that may arise from the new system of penalties that will be imposed by local authorities.

There is also a legitimate question about how we can be certain that local authorities will have the resources they need fairly to assess cases in which landlords are accused of an offence. We need a system that ensures that landlords are held to high standards, but surely that system has to be seen to be fair. Any system that makes landlords feel that they are perennially at risk of being found guilty of an offence, even without their knowledge, will only add to the chilling effect of the Bill on our rental market.

I also agree that the standard of proof where a local authority is making a decision on a case without recourse to the courts should be high. Local authority officers should be absolutely sure when making these decisions.

I have two questions for the Minister. First, will she take this opportunity to explain how a landlord who has been found guilty of an offence by a local authority will be able to appeal that decision? Secondly, will she please answer the question about appropriate local authority resources to enable them to administer these offences?

Renters’ Rights Bill

Lord Hunt of Wirral Excerpts

Tuesday 6th May 2025 Lords Chamber

For the interest of the Committee, Amendments 137, 141, 149 to 151, 156 to 164, 293 and 294 are consequential amendments to the five main amendments in this group. I hope that the Minister, if she is unable to provide clear answers today, will return to the House in due course with an explanation of the Government’s reasoning. At present, it is difficult to see how she can stand behind figures that appear arbitrary. I beg to move.

[Lord Hunt of Wirral (Con)]

My Lords, I rise to speak to Amendments 153, 201, 217 and 241, in the name of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton, who cannot attend the Committee today. I know the whole Committee will join me in wishing him well. These amendments seek to limit the financial penalty that local authorities can impose for offences under these clauses. In the absence of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton, I will briefly set out my reasons for supporting his amendments in this group.

I should declare an interest that, as a practising solicitor for over 50 years, I am always concerned about penalties that are outside the judicial process, but my concern increases when the level of financial penalty is as high as is proposed. I agree with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton, that the level of financial penalty set by the Bill is extremely high. A financial penalty of £40,000 would be ruinous for most landlords. According to the Government’s own Property Rental Income Statistics: 2024, the

“average income from UK property remained relatively stable at around £17,000 between 2018 to 2019 and 2022 to 2023”.

Therefore, a £40,000 penalty would, in effect, represent more than double the rental income of an average property.

In certain egregious cases, a penalty of that severity may seem appropriate, but those cases can be dealt with by the courts. We must ask ourselves what effect this new level of financial penalty that can be imposed by local authorities will have on landlords today. We have serious concerns that the risk of a large financial penalty being imposed may encourage existing landlords to leave the sector and discourage new landlords from entering it. A more reasonable level of financial penalty would prevent that chilling effect.

I have carefully heard the words of my noble friend Lord Jamieson on the Front Bench, and I know that my noble friend Lady Scott of Bybrook, also on the Front Bench, will surely agree with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton, on this and consider the warning that we have given. Of course we accept that the Government will have their Bill, which should be effective in delivering its objectives, but we are seriously concerned and worried about the impact that these excessive financial penalties will have on the rental market.

[The Earl of Kinnoull (CB)]

My Lords, I am deeply grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, for introducing the amendments of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton, so well. I spoke to the noble and learned Lord about these amendments before his illness, and I was going to pass on only two or three comments that I recall he made to me.

The £40,000 is a life-changing amount of money—I think that was the way he put it. The reason I have my iPad here is that he referred to the civil penalties under the Housing and Planning Act 2016, on which the MHCLG has issued a very helpful note. It is so complex that local authorities needed a 20-page note to tell them how to implement this. The maximum under that Act is £30,000, and I do not see why we have suddenly gone to a £40,000 world. The £30,000 was reserved for a relatively small number of offences, and each involved knowingly doing something truly evil and wrong. I feel that that, as a principle, is conceded, as it were, even though £30,000 is a bit rich. Therefore, I agree on the £40,000; I do not understand why we have had to go up from £30,000. With the next group, we will come to the issue of knowing and recklessness, which is deeply serious as well.

I will pause briefly on some of the amendments. Amendment 153 refers to a schedule. This is one of the ones where it is up to £40,000 currently. It refers to a very complex schedule—yet there is a recklessness trigger for a fine of up to £40,000. It seemed to me that that was not as serious as some of the things that are a £30,000 offence under the Housing and Planning Act 2016. So I was dubious about whether that was truly worthy of a £30,000 lump. I therefore agree very much with the £7,000, which is where the noble and learned Lord, Lord Etherton, had come to.

On Amendment 241, there are a couple of things here that trigger the £40,000. Again, recklessness is for mistakes made in giving data to the new database. When people give data to databases, it is inevitably quite boring, and things can go wrong. Recklessness is an incredibly difficult thing to cope with, as we will discuss next, no doubt. So I felt, again, that this was very different from the £30,000 triggers under the Housing and Planning Act 2016. I felt that there was a strong case for moving the maximum down to £7,000. I am going to stop there in the analysis, because it was better done by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, but that line of thinking—bringing it down to £7,000 from £40,000—was intended to improve standards of justice because, if people have been truly evil and truly wrong, the courts are there for that. They are made for that, and they can be a lot heavier with people. But, for local authorities, roughly £7,000 per offence—it could be multiple offences, of course—or 50% of an average year’s rental income, would be proportionate.

Social Care Strategy

Lord Hunt of Wirral Excerpts

Thursday 10th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hunt of Wirral (Con)]

My Lords, I first declare my interests as set out in the register, in particular as a partner at DAC Beachcroft. Last week I attended an excellent event with leaders in social care. What an impressive group they were, full of ideas and so very open to greater engagement and innovation. They easily persuaded me that innovation is the key to reforming the social care sector—and innovation must be enabled, not stifled.

Leaders in the sector are already championing a wealth of innovative solutions, from everyday innovations such as the decaffeination principle, which helps to reduce falls, to whole-system changes in approach. These should be encouraged and supported through financial support and regulatory understanding.

The new chief executive of the Care Quality Commission, Sir Julian Hartley, supported by an excellent chair, will have a testing challenge on his hands to persuade people that the CQC can indeed be fit for purpose. The sector urgently needs more effective and outcomes-focused regulation, and transparent, consistent and partnership-based commissioning. I hear encouraging things about Care Inspectorate Wales, where a spirit of partnership has been cultivated to positive effect. That may be a useful example for England to follow.

As the Darzi report forcefully points out, we must see a far greater recognition of the role that social care plays in supporting the NHS. A successful social care system is and always must be a core part of moving our cultural focus from cure to prevention and wellness, and to making the gradual shift from hospital care to community-based care. Sadly, while we tell people to stay in their homes for as long as possible, we do not then offer them the support they need.

Social care should be viewed much more positively, in this place and elsewhere, and not just as the service of last resort. It really needs to move out of the “too difficult” box, as stakeholders, including sector leaders, are brought into the discussion, to contribute to shaping the future in a more meaningful way. This includes those younger carers, instanced by my noble friend Lord Young of Cookham, and those key unpaid carers, as so clearly demonstrated by the noble Baroness, Lady Pitkeathley, and in the outstanding maiden speech by the noble Baroness, Lady Keeley.

While I welcome the new Government’s stated desire to build a consensus for reform, I find talk of a royal commission disheartening and evocative of the long-grass era. As the noble Baroness, Lady Tyler of Enfield, pointed out in her outstandingly good and wide-ranging opening speech, reform has been avoided for many years, and this cannot be allowed to continue. I hope that today’s debate will come to be seen as one of many landmarks on the route to sustainable reform of social care in England.

Leasehold Reform: Forfeiture Provisions

Lord Hunt of Wirral Excerpts

Monday 20th June 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for once again underlining that, when we reform landlord and tenant law, we need get the balance of interests right. As a Government, we have committed to a number of ways in which we try to get that balance right and, indeed, to move away from the idea of having leasehold as the tenure of choice to an era where we have full-throated commonhold, which I hope has the support of many Members of this House.

[Lord Hunt of Wirral (Con)]

Does my noble friend agree that there is great interest in leasehold reform? Would not this be an ideal opportunity to take advantage of a procedure which we have always had and greatly valued, pre-legislative scrutiny? If, indeed, there is to be a Bill in draft, perhaps this procedure could be used to let the House look at this in the round, which is urgently required.

[Lord Greenhalgh (Con)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for raising that. I am conscious of that way of starting the process; when you get the Bill written, pre-legislative scrutiny is a good way of getting broad support. In fact, that is how we started the process of scrutiny for what is now the Building Safety Act.

Business and Planning Bill

Lord Hunt of Wirral Excerpts

Committee stage & Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 14th July 2020 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Hunt of Wirral]

51: After Clause 15, insert the following new Clause—
“Outdoor entertainment
Local authorities in England may permit organised outdoor entertainment, including theatrical and musical performances, if the entertainment is organised in a manner that complies with—(a) relevant requirements under any enactment and(b) any guidance on social distancing that may be in place at the time of the performance.”Member’s explanatory statement
This new Clause would enable socially-distanced outdoor performances by actors and musicians.

[Lord Hunt of Wirral (Con) [V]]

My Lords, in moving Amendment 51 dealing with outdoor entertainment, I first draw attention to my interests in the register.

I profoundly appreciate and cherish the creative industries, not only for their ability to educate, entertain, provoke, stimulate and provide balm for the soul but because they are one of the most successful economic forces we possess here in the UK. Our film studios, orchestras, playwrights, theatres and video game designers all help to make us what we are as a nation. They are the envy of the world, and they all create employment and wealth.

Like many others, I warmly welcome the major announcements by the Government last week: the substantial financial support for the creative sector and the news that outdoor performances may now resume, with suitable measures taken to prevent risk of infection. Some of our most enterprising venues and companies are already forging ahead with plans for what remains of the summer: the Minack, Brighton Open Air Theatre, Glyndebourne, the Maltings in St Albans, This is My Theatre. I can confirm with pleasure that this happy list is substantial and growing.

Theatre and musicianship—indeed, all forms of creative endeavour—are crafts that require constant nourishment and nurture. It is vital that they should be financially supported during their enforced hibernation during this pandemic, but it is equally vital—far better, even—that they should come back to life as soon as it is safe for them to do so.

As it stands, this Bill deals with two major wealth-creating sectors that have been grievously hit by the pandemic: hospitality and construction. I strongly believe that the performing arts deserve similar recognition. Legislative underpinning for the avoidance of doubt is sensible for a significant shift in policy and law but, while joyously welcome, at the moment has the status only of phase 3 of a so-called road map.

I am also eager to raise again, as several noble Lords did yesterday at Questions, the plight of freelance actors, musicians, technicians and other creatives who lack the sustenance and reassurance of a financial, contractual tie to any building or institution. They too should be numbered among our crown jewels. I want them to receive every possible reassurance that we, in this place, understand their current plight and want to help them back to work and to honing their remarkable crafts, just as soon as it is safe for them to do so. I beg to move.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Penn (Con)]

My Lords, the Government wholly support the intention behind the amendment to enable socially distanced outdoor performances. I assure the noble Baroness, Lady Jones, that, although I am not my noble friend Lord Greenhalgh, I have a great admiration for our cultural sector and for the performing arts.

I am delighted to refer my noble friend Lord Hunt to the Culture Secretary’s announcement last week that, from Saturday 11 July, theatres, dance and music have been able to restart as long as they are Covid secure, take place outside with a limited and socially distanced audience, and have the appropriate approvals from local authorities. To support our theatres and performance venues to get up and running safety, we have published new government guidance that provides detailed advice on how to keep all those working in the performing arts and audiences safe.

My noble friend Lady Anelay asked about that guidance. We have worked with the sector through the Cultural Renewal Taskforce and the entertainment and events working group to produce it. We will continue to engage with the sector on the basis. My noble friend raised advanced notice. So far we have published a five-stage road map, on which we are at stage 3, so venues and others can plan for future stages in advance of them being introduced. That guidance will evolve. We are working on some of the science behind safely reopening some of these venues. As that progresses, we will update the guidance in line with consultation with the sector.

Since outdoor performances are now allowed, local authorities can already issue licences where appropriate for such events under the provisions of the Licensing Act 2003 and existing authorisations will not have lapsed, the intention behind my noble friend’s amendment has been wholly achieved.

My noble friend made two further points in relation to his amendment. The first was that the inclusion of the amendment would signal the Government’s commitment to this vital sector. I completely agree with my noble friend that our creative arts are an intrinsic part of what makes us a nation. I hope noble Lords will agree that there are many routes by which the Government can demonstrate their support for the sector. The announcement of the £1.57 billion of support—the largest ever one-off funding package for the sector—demonstrates that commitment.

That funding will also be essential to address the points raised by my noble friend Lord Hunt and the noble Lords, Lord Kennedy and Lord Clement-Jones, among others, about support for freelance workers and others in the sector. It will enable organisations to resume cultural activity, albeit in a socially distanced manner, which will increase employment opportunities for freelancers. That is in addition to funding announced by Arts Council England in March of £140 million for artistic organisations and £20 million for individuals, including self-employed practitioners, to continue their craft. More than 10,000 individuals and organisations have been successful in applying for this emergency funding.

My noble friend also sought reassurance on the legislative underpinning for the reopening of outdoor performances, as did the noble Lord, Lord Clement-Jones, and the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty. This amendment is not needed to allow outdoor performances to take place, even in venues where they do not already take place. Local authorities can license outdoor performances already; this is underpinned by legislation in the Licensing Act 2003. I hope noble Lords will agree that it is not good legislative practice to duplicate this provision through additional legislation. It might also be worth noting that we are not planning to put in place underpinning legislation for the reopening of every sector of our economy, however significant the default is that those sectors should be open and that is what should be in place.

I hope that this addresses most of the points raised by noble Lords. I apologise to the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty, for being unable to hear part of his contribution, particularly about the role of local councils, due to technical difficulties. We will of course continue to engage, but on the point of legislative underpinning compared to this Bill, we are not aware of any representations, for the process of applying for temporary events notices for example, which in any case is a shorter timescale than pavement licences, which are dealt with in the Bill. For these reasons, I am unable to accept this amendment, and therefore I hope that my noble friend can withdraw it.

[Lord Hunt of Wirral [V]]

My Lords, I am very grateful to my noble friend Lady Anelay of St Johns, the noble Baronesses, Lady Jones of Moulsecoomb and Lady Bowles of Berkhamsted, the noble Lords, Lord Clement-Jones and Lord Kennedy of Southwark, and the noble Earl, Lord Clancarty. We have spoken with one voice, and I greatly welcome the Minister’s commitment to our intention. As she said, legislative underpinning is the key. We are providing the hospitality and construction sectors with that legislative underpinning. The performing arts deserve similar recognition. I will return to the subject, but in the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

Amendment 51 withdrawn.