Health: Electronic Patient Records

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Thursday 27th April 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

My noble friend makes an important point about the use of data. There is a balance to be struck. The first point to be made about the use of data is that patients need to be part of any decision about sharing them. In 2012, the NHS Future Forum published an independent report on this issue and used the phrase,

“No decision about me without me”,


to describe the role of patients. There is of course a need to share data among clinicians, particularly when they treat a patient themselves. There can also be wider concerns: for example, in a public health pandemic or some such incident data would need to be shared more widely. But that can be done only with patients being informed and offering their consent.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, is there not a problem here? If all the focus is at national level, that usually takes a long time and it inhibits local progress. Does the Minister agree that one of the great challenges is being able to share information between the health service and social care if integrated care, particularly for older people who are discharged from hospital, is to be delivered? Is any progress being made in getting full integration at local level, which is clearly a challenging area?

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

The truth is that there is patchy use of data within the health service. Practically all GPs now offer electronic patient records and something like 9 million people have registered to make appointments online. But it is not at the same level in acute trusts, mental health trusts and so on; there is still paper usage. The intention has been to have a paperless NHS by 2020. This means that with patient consent based around clinical need we would have the ability to share data around the patient pathway, whatever part of the health service they were in.

Health Service Medical Supplies (Costs) Bill

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Ping Pong (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 26th April 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, I look forward to the Minister’s answer to that last question. From the opposition Benches, I very much welcome the agreed amendment that has come forward from the Government today. It is good to see how wash-up can concentrate minds no end, and we have reached a very satisfactory outcome. I am very grateful to the Minister and his officials for their co-operation on this.

The Opposition have been in no doubt whatever that it is absolutely right to take action against those companies that have clearly been abusing the system. We should also pay tribute to the Times newspaper for its campaign, which has opened up some transparency in a pretty murky area.

There are two key issues that need to be taken forward. First, the key message of debates in your Lordships’ House is that, in seeking to deal with this particular problem, we must not underestimate the contribution of the pharmaceutical industry to this country, to the economy and to the life sciences sector. We have a problem in that we are incredibly innovative in the number of new drugs that are developed in this country, but the NHS is finding it increasingly difficult to invest in them and patients are not getting the benefit.

The second is the whole question of balance between the statutory and voluntary schemes—the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, referred to this. I have reached the conclusion that the current arrangements are simply not up to scratch in relation to how government should negotiate with the industry in the future. The patent lack of transparency about the real price paid by the NHS for individual drugs means, in my view, that the arrangements are no longer fit for purpose. I hope that the Government—whichever Government are in power post election—will look afresh at the need for new arrangements in negotiation which get a fair price and also lead to the adoption of innovative new drugs for NHS patients.

Can the Minister say when he thinks the Government will be in a position to implement the key provisions in this Bill in relation to prices?

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords for their warm words and I reciprocate those feelings: it has been a very interesting, challenging and enjoyable experience working with noble Lords on this Bill on what is—as the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, has pointed out—a critical matter. It is critical not just that we get the best possible prices for drugs and that we crack down on those who are trying to rip off the system, but that we make sure we are also supporting the life sciences industry and are improving access for patients.

I am particularly grateful for the work done by the noble Lord, Lord Warner, and I appreciate his support for this amendment. My noble friend Lord Lansley and the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, made the point about the equivalence between the voluntary schemes and statutory schemes. There is equivalence in law and equivalence in spirit. It is in the nature of voluntary schemes that they take into account issues around access and life sciences, because that is, in a way, why they come about. You would not have one if you could not have some agreement on that. By making this amendment today we have provided something that was taken into account by the voluntary schemes by moving it into the statutory schemes and providing that equivalence.

My noble friend is quite right about the need to work in a constructive manner. It is possible to create a system in which the interests of patients, industry and the NHS align. There is no necessary reason for them to be in conflict and, indeed, we all want a system where we have improved access and keen prices that raise the standard of care available on the NHS.

I join the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, in congratulating the Times on its investigations, which continue. Indeed, I think that there was a story at the beginning of the week or the end of last week about that. It has put a turbo boost under this, but clearly there is more to do. This Bill will allow us to get up stream and not have to wait until things get to the Competition and Markets Authority many years down the track; it will allow us to improve things up front.

As to whether the current arrangements are up to scratch and what might happen in the future, noble Lords will understand if I resist making a comment on what might happen in the future, or what a future Government might do. My own observation—this is my way of answering the question from the noble Baroness, Lady Masham, which I will avoid slightly—is that any new system ought to be trying to rebalance spending towards innovative drugs, which can of course be done in any fiscal envelope; it is not necessarily a point about spending per se but about the balance of spending. Any system would probably benefit from being both simpler and quicker. I am sure that is something that Ministers in the Department of Health, whoever they may be after the next election, will want to grapple with.

I thank my officials who have done a fantastic job and have worked very hard with noble Lords across the House on the Bill and on amendments. I am very grateful to them. I think that 24 government amendments have now improved the Bill.

On a personal note, I have very much enjoyed taking my first piece of legislation through your Lordships’ House. Pending the election result, it may be my last, but I hope it will not be. Others may disagree.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, I will not comment on that last remark. The key clause is Clause 5. Can I take it that once the Bill receives Royal Assent the Government can implement that straightaway?

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

I believe that would be the case. Of course, there is a difference between what officials can do and what Ministers can give instructions to do in a period of purdah. However, as soon as the measure is in law, it is enforceable.

NHS and Adult Social Care

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Wednesday 5th April 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

I thank the noble Lord for that. I did not want to get ahead of myself but I thank him and all members of the committee for their work in putting together this document. I appreciate that it is an incredibly thorough and important piece of work, and I am also grateful to have received an embargoed copy of it yesterday. I will of course look carefully at all the recommendations and respond properly in due course. I am sure that we will also have an opportunity for a longer debate.

The noble Lord specifically asked about social care, and I completely agree with the priority attached to it in the report. He will know that the Government have committed more money in the short term to support social care, with £2 billion more having been announced at the Budget. But I know that his emphasis and the emphasis of his committee was on long-term reform. He is quite right to point out that the Green Paper is a very important opportunity to take a broad perspective and to put the system on a sustainable long-term footing.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, I too commend the noble Lord and his committee for a thorough report, which I endorse and on which I hope we can have a full debate in due course. On the future of long-term care, the noble Lord will know that before the 2010 election Andy Burnham, as Secretary of State for Health, made some very striking proposals for its funding. I wonder whether the Minister regrets that David Cameron and other Conservative leaders at the time condemned this as a “death tax” and put back the search for consensus on the funding of social care for many, many years.

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

The so-called “death tax”, to use the noble Lord’s words—

Hospitals: Patient Transport

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Tuesday 4th April 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

There are challenges in patient transport, particularly in rural areas. That was one of the reasons for the Department for Transport creating the Total Transport pilots in an attempt to deal with the problem. In Devon, the local authority and CCG are now working together to provide better transport. As I said, it is in the clinical commissioning standard contract to provide that kind of transport and NHS England is responsible for making sure that it is provided.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister said that there are no national targets in relation to patient transport services, but there are targets in relation to ambulance services. Can he tell the House when those targets were last met by the ambulance services in England? Can he also tell me why, in the mandate for 2017-18 to NHS England, no guarantee is given that the NHS will come back to meeting those ambulance targets? Can I take it that, just as the Government have now decided to drop the 18-week target for surgery, they are also dropping the idea of a target for ambulance services to be met?

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

I am afraid the noble Lord is wrong on the 18-week target—it has not been dropped. It is within the mandate. The 18-week target is being fulfilled in the vast majority of cases. Performance is much better than it was 10 years ago in terms of both median waits and the number of people who are waiting. I do not have the precise figure for ambulance services. However, they are in the mandate and local trusts are expected to deliver against the targets in the mandate.

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

I am sorry to hear about the case of this young man and offer my sympathies to both him and his family. I appreciate the urgency and I understand that this person may not have long to live. I shall certainly speak to colleagues as soon as humanly possible and come back to the noble Lord with information on the situation.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, the noble Lord said the Government have not dropped the 18-week target. What on earth, then, did the chief executive of the NHS mean when he said on Friday that the NHS would not achieve that target and that it would take less priority than other targets?

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

The chief executive of the NHS was talking about the relative priority and importance of achieving A&E waiting times in particular to the targets that it is not hitting at the moment. The five-year forward view delivery plan refers to the fact that elective operations will continue to increase and that the median wait may move marginally. However, it is worth pointing out that 10 years ago the median wait for an in-patient for an elective procedure was 15.6 weeks—under a Labour Government, of course—and in January this year it was 10.6 weeks. The median may increase but it is still within the 18-week target.

Alcohol: Children’s Health

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Monday 3rd April 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

Now that we can see the end of the light-touch European regulations on alcohol labelling, can I take it that the Minister’s department is looking to 2019 to produce a much tougher labelling regime, for which we have called for many years?

[Lord O’Shaughnessy]

We are obviously looking at all aspects of alcohol control, and this has nothing to do with Brexit per se. It is worth pointing out that successive Governments’ alcohol policies have had a very positive impact on the activities of young people. Fewer young people than ever are drinking—it is fair to say that they set an example to older cohorts. However, there is more to do. Around 400 11 to 15 year-olds drink weekly. That is clearly not acceptable and we need to do more.

Nursing and Midwifery (Amendment) Order 2017

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Tuesday 28th February 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

I thank noble Lords for an extremely high-quality and very well-informed debate on both this order and the amendment. I will do my best to deal with the many questions and important issues that were raised by noble Lords.

First, I welcome the welcome that this order has broadly received. As the noble Lord, Lord Willis, pointed out, the separation of the professional interest and regulatory functions is best practice; that is how we expect regulation to take place these days. Unfortunately, in Morecambe Bay that lack of separation was one of the contributing factors, and that obviously has been a spur to change. I also welcome the words of support for the fitness-to-practise changes, which I think will bring in a quicker, more flexible and more proportionate system.

I turn to some of the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Hunt. There is undoubtedly an issue about the workforce, as he pointed out. There has been an increase in the number of births, and more is being done both to recruit existing staff and to retain them. But at the heart of this are three issues. The first is the point about silos versus integrated care. Of course we all want integrated care; that is the direction of travel. At the same time, necessary changes are taking place to the regulatory structure to deliver the kind of separation and clarity that we also want to happen. The concern being raised is whether, in doing so, we will in some way change the status of the profession, if you like—not intentionally, but by virtue of the removal of various statutory arrangements and so on. I can understand why some might draw that conclusion, but it is clearly not the intention of what is happening here, and I hope to set out a few reasons why that is the case.

The proposed changes do not alter the status of midwifery as a distinct profession with its own standards. There will be no change to the protected title of midwife, and delivering a baby remains a protected function for a midwife or medical practitioner; it is incredibly important to set that out at the beginning. As the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, pointed out, there are various tiers of representation, if you like, below Chief Nursing Officer: head of maternity, NHS England regional heads, deputy heads and so on. I do not know the specific reason why that is called maternity, not midwifery. I imagine that it might be because of integrated care and because, although it might have midwifery as the major focus of it, it might also involve other aspects of the birthing arrangements. I shall certainly endeavour to find out and write to the noble Lord about it.

The other issues were around whether the profession is getting the attention and respect that it deserves and indeed is properly represented at the right levels and in the right bodies. There is a midwife on the NMC. That is not a statutory requirement but the council ensures that it happens. It is also fair to say that we have a Secretary of State who is taking the issue of maternity safety incredibly seriously. I mentioned the national ambition, but we also had the publication of Safer Maternity Care in October and I will come on to some of the issues raised by my noble friend Lady Cumberlege as well. A lot is going on to support the profession.

One important part of that is making sure that this new supervisory function takes place properly and replaces statutory supervision. I quite understand why noble Lords will be concerned that that should take place. While on the one hand we have all agreed that the separation of regulation and supervision needs to happen and that the order creates greater clarity, there must be something to replace the supervisory arrangements that we agree need to change.

I reassure noble Lords that the four countries in the UK have been working together since 2015 to take account of the new employer-led models of supervision. In England, the NHS has evaluated the model in seven pilot sites to inform the model and its implementation, and there has been an education programme. Those pilots began last November and will complete in March, so they are informing the arrangements that go on in England. In the other countries, systemic reviews of the new system are taking place, on slightly different timeframes in different countries. But I reassure noble Lords that that will be happening. Not only is there preparation for the new system, there will be reviews into its effectiveness. Given all the points noble Lords have made about our experiences in Morecambe Bay and elsewhere, it is clearly essential that that happens.

A reasonable question was asked by the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, and my noble friend Lady Cumberlege about whether midwifery issues would be properly dealt with by the NMC and whether it has the capacity to do so, given its past problems. It received a much more positive performance review from the Professional Standards Authority, which found improvements down the line. Clearly, there is still one outstanding issue resulting from Morecambe Bay, but it is now an improved regulator and we can have confidence that it will do the kind of job that we now ask it to do.

My noble friend Lady Cumberlege raised the issue of the right level of insurance for independent midwives. I know that is incredibly important for maternal choice. Insurance is clearly a hot topic at the moment, but I will certainly write to her and find out exactly what the regulator is doing to give proper guidance, because that must happen. She is quite right to raise the example of Sweden. We know that there is a lot more to be done to improve maternity services in this country. Change is going on. My noble friend also mentioned the consultation going on with regard to regulatory redress. There needs to be a change of culture so that it is less adversarial and less litigious, and designed to increase learning and bring that to bear much more quickly on the process. We are undertaking that set of reforms and I pay huge tribute to her for her work in making that happen. My noble friend asked a set of other questions and I will certainly write to her so that I can answer her properly if I have not done so in the answers I have given already.

I end by paying tribute to the profession itself. The noble Lord, Lord Willis, made an excellent point, which goes beyond the scope of the order but is important. There is more that midwives can—indeed, must—do if we are to have a properly integrated system. We all want a healthcare system that, in the end, involves a personalised pathway. Whatever your experience, whether you are an older person, a young person, a mother or whatever, you can have someone by your side, leading you through that experience. Clearly, many pregnant women will want that to be a midwife, so I absolutely take the point about integrating with health visitors and many others besides. I hope changes are going on. That is perhaps not a subject for debate tonight but for another time. On that basis, I ask the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, I am very grateful to the Minister. I totally agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, about the importance of the midwife being an integral part of the team. The noble Lord, Lord Willis, is right, as is the Minister, that one of the lessons of Morecambe Bay is the problem of different professions being completely unable to relate and talk to each other. Frankly, this is an issue that the health service suffers from and the Minister is right that, in a sense, it could be argued that the NMC is putting forward a more integrated approach to regulation. The risk is that, because of the disparity between the number of nurses and midwives—and we have often seen this before—integration could mean the marginalisation of certain people. This is the risk that we need to guard against—the unintended consequence.

The Minister has given a very good assurance that this matter will be kept under clear review; he emphasised that this would be a proper review and I very much welcome that. However, I still believe that, in the end, the answer to the question that he posed—“Are midwives around the right table?”—is that the experience of the health service is that they are never around the table at all. This is the problem. Whether the meetings are at board level of an English NHS trust, at the top level of the senior management team of a regional office of NHS Executive, at the NHS Executive itself, or at the department, they are never there. The big problem of how we get midwifery input at those top levels is one that we are still struggling with.

It is ironic that, having debated only two weeks ago the need for an approach to health regulation that covers all professions, we are now debating one profession. The noble Baroness, Lady Cumberlege, is absolutely right about this. I am indebted to the barrister Kenneth Hamer from Henderson Chambers who wrote to me after our last debate to point out that the Supreme Court is now using the Law Commission’s work on regulation to inform its own judgments. If there is any argument for the Government to produce a Bill in relation to unified health regulation very quickly, that is it.

On the loss of the midwifery supervisor, everyone agrees that the regulatory function needs to be separated off, and it is absolutely right that that is what the NMC should be concerned with. But there is concern about the loss of the supervisor at the local level. For me, the issue is safety. We know that NHS trusts are coming under huge pressure in relation to staffing levels from NHS Improvement because of pressure to reduce the deficit. The question, which I pose rhetorically, is who, given this pressure and given that midwifery does not have a voice at the board table, is going to defend the safety of the profession in terms of numbers when it comes to kind of hard decisions that are going to be made? That is my concern and frankly it has not been answered.

On the NMC’s performance, I remain of the view that the current chief executive has done a very good job trying to deal with the huge problems that she inherited. I hope that, whatever review is undertaken, it will not destabilise the NMC and that she will be given the time she needs to continue to make improvements.

The Minister said that he would exchange letters on the issue of independent midwives. I hope he will agree to go a little bit further and discuss this matter with his noble friend and the NMC. This issue has now been around for years, but it could clearly be sorted. A number of people are involved—the department, NHS England, the NMC and, I suspect, the NHS Litigation Authority—but if Ministers banged their heads together this would be sorted; that needs to happen. Frankly, even post the calamity of the 2012 Act, which has created such a discordant structure, Ministers can, in the end, determine something to happen here. That is what we need.

There is no question about it: I am not interested in silo professional behaviour or in whether a statutory committee is the right way to go forward. But I am convinced that the voice of midwifery needs to be heard at the highest level. I hope that this excellent debate—I am grateful to the Minister, too, for his response—has been helpful in just making that point. I shall not press my amendment to the Motion.

Tobacco Control Plan

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Thursday 23rd February 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord O’Shaughnessy]

My noble friend makes an excellent point. Indeed, the Royal College of Surgeons of Edinburgh has just started a campaign to encourage clinicians to help their patients to stop smoking, and making sure that that happens is clearly going to have benefits for the kind of major surgery that some of the people who are suffering severe effects of smoking will need to have.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, I noted that the Minister said the tobacco control plan will be published shortly and that it was in an advanced state of preparation. That was the same answer that his honourable friend the Public Health Minister gave in another place on 15 November 2016. The last tobacco control plan actually ran out at the end of 2015, so the new one is 14 months late. When exactly will it be published, and what has been the delay? Could the reason have been the decimation of the public health budget for local authorities, which has had a devastating effect, with reductions in preventive programmes at a local level?

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

I understand the frustration at the delay in publishing the plan. That does not mean that action has not been taking place: all the action set in train under the previous plan has been taking place throughout that period. As I said, the new plan will be published shortly. I look to my noble friend Lord Ahmad, who has given several master classes in the use of words to describe “shortly” in different ways. I will save a few of those for any future Questions and stick with “shortly” for now.

Health Service Medical Supplies (Costs) Bill

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Lord O'Shaughnessy

3rd reading (Minutes of Proceedings): House of Lords
Thursday 23rd February 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, I too welcome the amendments. Clearly, the Opposition will support them. I must remind the House of my presidency of the Health Care Supply Association and GS1 UK.

First, I thank the Minister and his officials for their warm co-operation. The ability to have a number of meetings has been much appreciated. This has been a very good example of cross-House co-operation. Various noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord Warner, and the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, worked very hard together on the core issue of ensuring that NHS patients get access to effective new medicines. I say to the Minister that I hope Clause 3 will remain in the Bill when it comes back to your Lordships’ House, if indeed it needs to come back—I take the point of the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, that this House has done the job it is here to do: it has revised and scrutinised the legislation. I would have thought that the other place should simply accept the Bill as it is, and I hope the Minister will be able to confirm that when he responds. I also thank my noble friend Lady Wheeler for her tremendous support, and Dan Stevens, our health researcher.

It seems to me that the Minister has shown himself adept at handling health legislation in your Lordships’ House, and so we look forward to the next health Bill. If he is looking for suggestions, we are going to have the great repeal Bill and perhaps we can look forward also to the repeal of the Health and Social Care Act 2012. That would bring great joy to many.

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

I am very grateful to noble Lords for their support for these amendments. I am also grateful to my noble friend Lord Lansley, one of the architects of this new approach to information notices; that was extremely useful and we have ended up in a good place. I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, who I have enjoyed getting to know through the process of this Bill. She is quite right to emphasise the vital role that this House plays through its proper constitutional role in revising legislation—I will not say anything more than that. I thank the noble Lords, Lord Warner and Lord Hunt, both of whom have been in my shoes in the past. Good will will certainly operate, and I hope that both noble Lords, and indeed the noble Baroness, Lady Wheeler, have found me to be open, open-minded and willing to work with them. Throughout the passage of the Bill I have been keen to ensure that it is a proportionate response to tackle this challenge, and I think we are all agreed on that.

To conclude, I am delighted that we have come this far on the scrutiny of the Bill and are now debating the final amendments to bring it to a close. As we end Third Reading I would like to take this opportunity to place on record my thanks to all noble Lords who have taken part in the debates, beyond those I mentioned just now, throughout all stages in this House. It is fair to say that the collected efforts of this House in bringing together different views have paid dividends in the improvements that we have seen. It has been a good example of the rigour and attention to detail that this House is known for.

I particularly thank the many officials involved in the Bill, who have worked not only to support me but to ensure that noble Lords are briefed and that any concerns are addressed, within what at times have been very tight timescales. They have done a tremendous job and I am sure the House will join me in paying tribute to them.

Although this may not be the final word on the Bill, I am convinced that the House is sending it back to the other place having been significantly improved in key respects.

National Health Service: Nurses

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Wednesday 22nd February 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

I thank my noble friend for that question. We should be looking at attrition rates in training and in the profession itself, and I would certainly be happy to work with him on that. I know he is particularly anxious about the turnover of nurses within certain training settings.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, what is the current deficit that NHS providers are running in the health service? Can the Minister assure me that the NHS will actually have the money to spend on more nurses next year?

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

I do not have to hand the figures the noble Lord asks for. He will know that the Government are putting in £10 billion over the five-year forward view period in order to support the world-class NHS that we all want to see.

National Health Service Commissioning Board (Additional Functions) Regulations 2017

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Tuesday 21st February 2017 Grand Committee

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, I am very grateful to the Minister for his comprehensive introduction to the regulations before us this afternoon. I was interested when in his opening remarks he referred to the NHS Commissioning Board, more commonly known as NHS England. What struck me is that, when challenged on NHS funding, the Minister and his predecessor have been fond of saying that the NHS got the extra money that it had asked for. But what he really meant to say is that the NHS Commissioning Board put forward a five-year forward plan which talked about a £30 billion gap between the resource needed and the resource that was likely to be got, on the projections then published. We know that it was then told by the Treasury how much it could actually ask for. When we come to debate the NHS and its funding, it would give a much better reflection of the actual position if the Minister were to say that the figure which the Government have produced is what the NHS Commissioning Board was told to put into the five-year forward view.

I was puzzled by the way in which NHS England changed the name of its organisation to be that. Much of the two years we spent debating the 2012 Act was around the work of the NHS Commissioning Board. I was a little surprised that a quango took it upon itself simply to change its name and give itself the kind of title to which, statutorily, it clearly had no right—nor is it in its remit. It is interesting that when it comes to regulations such as these, which we have frequently, they have to relate to the NHS Commissioning Board. I suspect that very few people know what it is. At the end of the day, either the Government should regularise this by legislating to call NHS England by that name or it should revert to being the NHS Commissioning Board. As a matter of principle and practice, it is not a good idea to use a name that has not been given in legislation.

These are interesting regulations because, in a way, they take us back to our debates in relation to the Health Service Medical Supplies (Costs) Bill. Much of those debates have been on the cost of medicines, and the operation of the PPRS scheme and the statutory scheme alongside it. I guess that the question I would put to the Minister is: since negotiations with the pharmaceutical industry currently lie principally with the Department of Health, what implications does the transfer of this unit to NHS England have for the department’s own capacity to negotiate agreements in future? Does it essentially mean that NHS England will take over those negotiations?

I have obviously seen the Explanatory Memorandum and the reference back to the Carter report. I understand the reasons why my noble friend Lord Carter, thought that the CMU would be best placed within NHS England. But does this transfer equate at all to the recommendation in the Accelerated Access Review, which called for the creation of a strategic commercial unit to be established within NHS England? Would I be right in thinking that the transfer of the CMU is, in essence, the strategic commercial unit that the accelerated access review called for? What it actually said is that it wanted an SCU to,

“have the capacity and capability to consider a range of flexible pricing models as part of a commercial dialogue with innovators”,

and envisaged:

“Win-win scenarios, where innovators benefit from earlier, and, in some cases, guaranteed market access and the NHS and patients benefit from better value through a reduced price”.


In a sense, that takes us back to our debates during the passage of the Bill about whether we can develop more of a win-win relationship with innovators so that patients get access to innovation at a much earlier stage—but also, because the NHS is moving from a culture that is very often opposed to the introduction of innovation to one that embraces innovation, it therefore gets the advantage of better value for money in the end. If that is not to be the case, does the Minister think that the CMU has the capacity, capability and expertise to agree new and innovative commercial arrangements with companies? Will those processes support improved patient access to medicines and will NHS England consult on any new methodology or guides that will support the commercial unit role? How will the reconstituted CMU within the NHS interact with NICE and the adoption of NICE-approved medicines? If it has an active role, will that affect a patient’s right to NICE-approved medicines as covered by the NHS constitution?

Clearly, the experience of companies dealing with NHS England at the moment is that it is inflexible and is interested not in quality and outcome but simply in price. I have had many representations to that effect. My understanding is that NHS England simply has not got the capacity to negotiate these rather more innovative approaches to innovation, adoption and value for money. At heart, the question is this: will the transfer of the CMU to NHS England enhance the capacity of that organisation to move from a crude bottom-line approach to purchasing to one which looks at best value, innovation and adoption?

Apart from that, I will be interested in the Minister’s responses. As this is about procurement, I should remind the Committee of my presidency of the Health Care Supply Association and of GS1, the bar-coding association.

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for his questioning which was, as usual, precise. I will attempt to respond to his questions as best I can. I shall start where he started. I do not think I can take any blame for any confusion that may be caused around rebranding the NHS Commissioning Board Authority as NHS England. It clearly has a commissioning role, and in that commissioning role there is clearly a good fit with procurement. That is what the noble Lord, Lord Carter, concluded. Bringing together specialised commissioning, general procurement capacity and the role of the CMU was a good fit and it might deliver better value for money for the NHS, which I know the noble Lord wants as much as I do, so we can clear that out of the way.

The noble Lord’s big question was about enhancing the capacity of NHS England to become more sophisticated. In one sense, he is getting slightly ahead of things because the regulations do not transfer the entirety of the functionality. Some of the functionality will continue to be in the department as it pertains to public health responsibilities—vaccination, for example, or the procurement of emergency treatments. However, those that are to do with the ordinary activities of the health service are moving over. From that point of view, therefore, there is no change: the framework agreements transfer and people transfer. It is simply transferring a unit from one place to another, but clearly with the idea that there will be an enhancement in everyday activities as a result.

The noble Lord is quite right to refer to the issue of access—we talked about that a lot during the Bill’s passage—and it may well be that in future, when we are thinking about what comes after the PPRS, the kind of things that he is talking about would be within the remit. It would be wrong for me to comment on that now, not least because the PPRS commits us to certain activities and behaviours on simplicity of pricing discounts and so on, and clearly the kinds of things he is talking about—the more sophisticated value-based pricing models—do not currently fall within that scope. I am clear, however, that the Government and the department will continue to take a lead in any future discussions about replacements that leverage capacity across the system.

In answer to a couple of the noble Lord’s other questions, there is no particular impact on NICE from these regulations. We know that within the PPRS there is a commitment to fund after three months: that is part of the agreement. I hope, therefore, that he is reassured about that. To repeat, this is, in essence, quite a simple measure that takes a set of responsibilities from one place to another with the aim of providing greater efficiency—by procuring framework agreements, and so on. That is separate, in a way, to what we have been discussing in the Bill, but it may be that in future the transfer and enhancement of that capacity could set the tone for the kind of negotiations that he would like. However, I hope that he will understand that it would not be right for me to make any commitment on that at the moment, bearing in mind the relationships that we have. If he is satisfied with those responses, I commend the order.

Health Service Medical Supplies (Costs) Bill

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 7th February 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord O’Shaughnessy]

The treatments become available throughout the NHS from three months after the appraisal.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, given that I took the order through Parliament many years ago, I can confirm that the whole intention was that the NHS had 90 days to prepare for funding a medicine that had been designated by NICE as both clinically and cost effective. The problem is that, subsequently, in particular over the past few years, clinical commissioning groups have done everything they can to avoid this responsibility. Alongside that, the purity of the 90-day rule is being eaten into, and that is at the heart of the concern of this amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Lansley for bringing this amendment and for the opportunity to talk about the intentions of the Bill. He is quite right to highlight that the reason for bringing the Bill forward is to stop the behaviour of switching between schemes in order to reduce liabilities. That has characterised behaviour in the past few years and has had an impact on the successful operation of the PPRS. I will discuss the PPRS towards the end of my speech.

Amendment 4 is about the relationship between the voluntary and statutory schemes. I thank noble Lords for their views in this area. This amendment would require us to secure that, for any given product, the voluntary and statutory schemes would have an equivalent impact. It presents a slightly different approach to securing equivalence between the voluntary and statutory schemes, but I understand that, fundamentally, equivalence is what the amendment is seeking to achieve. I gave my views on this matter in Committee and I am happy to respond in similar terms on this occasion.

The Government’s intention is for the two schemes to deliver a broadly equivalent level of savings as a proportion of the total sales covered by each scheme. However, to require the terms of each scheme to be the same, in so far as possible, is inappropriate and would restrict the scope of the two schemes to operate in a complementary manner. Requiring equivalence to operate at product level, as the amendment suggests, would be even more restrictive.

The voluntary scheme is a matter for negotiation with industry. As such, there is scope to have a range of measures included that reflect the priorities of both sides at any point. It may be helpful to the House if I reiterate some of the examples I set out in Committee. The current voluntary scheme, the PPRS, includes a range of provisions, developed through negotiation with industry, that sit alongside the payment mechanism. This includes price modulation, which enables companies to put prices up and down as long as the overall effect across their portfolio is neutral. This has commercial value to companies, which may be willing to accept a higher payment percentage as a result.

In another example, while new medicines in the PPRS are excluded from PPRS payments, the PPRS payment percentage level itself is set at a level to achieve the agreed level of savings across both new and older medicines. This means that each company’s share of the income due to government will vary depending on the balance of new and old products in their portfolio, with companies that have mainly new products paying less than companies with mainly old products. However, it would be very challenging to replicate this model in the statutory scheme, as many fewer companies are affected by the statutory scheme regulations than are members of the PPRS. As a result, there is a much smaller pool of companies with older products. To achieve the same level of savings overall from the statutory scheme as from the PPRS while exempting newer products would require an extremely high payment percentage. This provides an example of where minor differences in terms may be required in order to deliver an equivalent level of savings across the two schemes overall. As noble Lords know, as we discussed in Committee and as I now repeat, the detail of how any future statutory scheme will work will be subject to further consultation.

As was discussed here and in the Commons, the freedom to negotiate the voluntary scheme has been valued greatly by both industry and government. As the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, reminded us, I said as much in Committee. Our intention for the future of the PPRS is to work collaboratively and constructively with industry on future medicines pricing arrangements when the current PPRS comes to an end.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

This time, will NHS England be a full partner in the discussions and negotiations? Clearly, unless it owns the solution as well, you have the problem that an agreement can be reached but it does not quite translate itself into action on the ground. I realise that this is traditionally a negotiation between the Department of Health and the industry but it would be useful if NHS England were fully part of that.

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

The noble Lord makes an excellent point. Clearly, as the budget holder, NHS England ultimately must be a key part of negotiations for any future schemes. We intend that any future voluntary scheme should be established through negotiation in this way, but linking the payment mechanisms would inevitably place a restriction on that freedom.

I am grateful to my noble friend for raising this issue and I hope I have reassured him on equivalence, while also explaining why I believe the amendment goes too far by focusing specifically on products. On that basis, I ask my noble friend to withdraw his amendment.

Sustainability and Transformation Plans

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Thursday 26th January 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

The noble Lord asked about funding and I want to provide him with an answer. The plans are backed by a £1.8 billion sustainability and transformation fund and £19 billion of capital spending over four years to help make these changes.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister has talked about the public being involved. Why then have the public, local authorities and clinicians been excluded from the STP process so far, as shown by the King’s Fund? These plans depend on investment in primary care, community care and social care. Where on earth is the money going to come from to invest in those services, when the acute sector is under such pressure?

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

Clinicians and local authorities are involved in these plans. The whole point of the plans is that they bring everybody together within an area to create changes that are driven from the bottom up, so as to provide a much more efficient service. The noble Lord knows full well that more money is going into both primary care and the service overall.

Health Service Medical Supplies (Costs) Bill

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 25th January 2017 Grand Committee

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, I want to express some sympathy with the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Lansley. I am not sure whether he has got the terms of his amendment right; my noble friend Lord Warner has an amendment in the next group which, in a sense, covers the same ground.

The noble Lord, Lord Lansley, knows that I am sceptical about whether these powers should be extended to non-medicines but the issue here is that they are very broad, as he says. As far as I can see, there are absolutely no safeguards regarding how these powers will be used. The safeguards are not in the Bill or the 2006 Act, and certainly not in the draft regulations as far as I can see. We are looking for the Minister to table amendments on Report to build in thresholds or safeguards to stop the department simply undertaking fishing expeditions. That would give us some sense of proportionality. I am not sure whether the noble Lords, Lord Lansley and Lord Warner, have got their amendments quite right but I am certain there will be a consensus for building in some safeguards over the use of these powers.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Lord O'Shaughnessy) (Con)]

My Lords, it is nice to be back with you again today to finish the Bill’s Committee stage. I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Lansley for tabling his amendments, and for his support for the Bill’s ultimate purpose: more rigorous gathering of data to support voluntary and statutory schemes and pharmacy reimbursements. That support is very welcome. I have huge sympathy with his argument. It is because we agree with the need properly to set out the information powers that we have published two sets of illustrative regulations to help Parliament scrutinise the information powers in the Bill. Reflecting on those, I believe that I can reassure my noble friend about the concerns behind his amendment.

I start by addressing the general proposition that a UK producer should be provided with an information notice every time the Secretary of State seeks to require information from that producer. Many noble Lords have expressed concerns about the regulatory burden the Bill might impose, and the amendment could exacerbate those worries. Regarding routine information collection, the Government already collect information on prices and volumes every quarter to support the operation of the PPRS and statutory schemes, and to inform reimbursement prices for community pharmacies. The Bill would expand routine collections to inform reimbursement prices to enable us—as my noble friend pointed out—to use data from more companies, to make the reimbursement of community pharmacies fairer and more robust, and to set reimbursement prices for more products.

For the purposes of requiring information on a routine basis, the illustrative regulations clearly set out what information would need to be provided, the form in which it would need to be supplied, the period of time it would need to cover and the date by which it would need to be supplied. Where information is required on a non-routine basis, the illustrative regulations demonstrate that the Secretary of State would notify a UK producer of that request. The regulations set out the notice that the Secretary of State would give a UK producer, the form in which the notice would be given and the type of information that would be required. The regulations would also require the Secretary of State to inform UK producers of the time period the information would need to cover and the time within which the information would be required.

Turning to the purposes for which information can be required and the persons to whom confidential and commercially sensitive information can be disclosed, I reassure the Committee that the Government take these matters very seriously. We have sought clearly to set out in the Bill the limited purposes for which information can be required and the persons to whom confidential or commercially sensitive information can be disclosed in relation to those purposes. The Bill makes it clear that information can be required for only three purposes: first, to reimburse community pharmacies and GPs; secondly, to support the PPRS and the cost-control provision in the NHS Act 2006; and thirdly, to ensure that healthcare products provide value for money.

The information that we would collect under the first two purposes would generally involve routine collections, to operate the reimbursement system and our voluntary and statutory schemes. However, assuring ourselves that products or the supply chain provide value for money would be done through ad-hoc collections. This is where we get to the critical issue of thresholds. Those collections would be triggered by evidence from existing data that there may be an issue with pricing—for example, when the reimbursement price we set in primary care is increasing without obvious reasons—or patients, clinicians, commissioners or the industry raising concerns, for example about price rises without obvious reasons or access problems. I hope that that makes it clear that this is not intended for fishing expeditions, to use the expression of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

Have I missed this? Are those qualifications for the use of the provisions set out in the Bill?

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

They are not. I am using this opportunity to set out on the record the reasons why information would be sought.

The Bill is also clear about with whom confidential and commercially sensitive information can be shared. This is restricted to other Government departments, the devolved Administrations and specific NHS bodies and persons providing services to any of these bodies. The information can be disclosed to these bodies only for the purposes set out in the Bill—which I just reprised. The Bill also enables the Secretary of State to share information with trade bodies, and Regulation 11 of the illustrative regulations sets out the trade bodies with whom the Secretary of State might want to share information, and the type of information that he would want to share with them.

The illustrative regulations currently limit the information that we can share with trade bodies to aggregated data that cannot be led back to a specific company. Furthermore, the Bill enables the Government to prescribe in regulations any other person to whom the Secretary of State can disclose information. The flexibility provided by this regulation-making power allows the Secretary of State to disclose information to other persons who may become involved in payment or reimbursement for health service medicines, medical supplies or other related products, including, for example, in circumstances of regional devolution. Again, it would be possible to disclose confidential or commercially sensitive information to these persons only for the purposes set out in the Bill. We will have further opportunities to discuss these powers of disclosure when we discuss the amendments relating to the report of the DPRRC. In summary, we would not be able to disclose information to bodies not listed in the Bill or prescribed in regulations, so the legislation will restrict to whom we can disclose information.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, my noble friend is right because he goes to the heart of the argument about this Bill. I think we have all said that we support the core aim, which is to deal with branded products becoming generics and the issues that were identified. The question is whether the Bill is a proportionate response to that and what impact it will have on future investment in this country.

I have been wracking my brains to puzzle out why this was first legislated for in 1977. My noble friend will remember that that was the time of the prices and incomes policy. Lady Williams of Crosby and my esteemed noble friend Lord Hattersley were Secretaries of State for Prices and Consumer Protection. I would not be at all surprised if it had something to do with that. I have to say that it was not altogether successful as a policy, and I am not sure that it is a great precedent for the Minister to rely on now. Certainly, in 1979 the electorate did not think that it was a very successful policy, that is for sure.

The only point I want to put to the Minister is this: I think there is a consensus in the Committee that there needs to be some trigger mechanism. We have had elements of that. The noble Lord, Lord Lansley, proposed an amendment that included appeals. He suggested what would trigger action, which was very helpful. In his amendment, my noble friend suggested another approach. The Delegated Powers Committee is concerned about the general terms of this clause. It said:

“We consider the general power to be inappropriate unless the Minister is able to explain why it is not feasible to specify the further bodies to whom information may be disclosed on the face of the Bill, and why it is not feasible to limit the kinds of bodies to whom disclosure may be made”.


That picks up the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, and I agree with him about NHS bodies,

The question is this. The only satisfactory safeguards will be in the Bill. This House has no influence on regulations. The Minister will know that only six or seven statutory instruments have ever been defeated, so regulations in themselves provide very little safeguard. This is our only opportunity to provide safeguards in the Bill. Essentially, the choice for us is to press on with amendments at Report or to come to some agreement with the Government about what is appropriate. That we need something in the Bill is not in doubt.

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

I thank noble Lords for that very good debate, which has again got to the heart of why we are all here. While we are reflecting on the 1970s, we have an industrial strategy again, so who knows? The wheel turns.

I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Warner, for his amendment and understand that he seeks to minimise the burden on businesses; we agree with him on that aim. However, the amendment would have serious unintended consequences. I will set out why I believe that to be the case and in doing so, I hope to respond to other noble Lords’ questions.

The amendment would restrict the circumstances under which the Government could ask for information on revenues or profits accrued in connection with the manufacturing, distribution or supply of UK health service products. We have been clear throughout that the information that we seek for routine data collection does not go beyond that which would be required for tax purposes. That is the reassurance that we provide on the overall burden and how it would affect businesses. I appreciate that there is a separate question about non-routine data collection, which I will come to, but the overall intention is not to create any additional burden.

The amendment would restrict the information-gathering powers to where a specific health service product has significantly increased in price and where there are reasonable grounds to believe that the NHS is not receiving value for money. However, it would prevent us operating our cost and price control schemes. The reason for that is that the Government collect information on revenues from companies as part of the various cost and price control schemes to be able to determine the sales of those companies to the health service. This enables us to identify the savings achieved through price cuts and which, in our reformed statutory scheme, would be a prerequisite for calculating the payments due from individual companies.

The Government require this information at product level to satisfy ourselves that the terms of the scheme are being applied correctly. As noble Lords know, this model has been in operation through the PPRS for many years, and we have not heard concerns from industry about the burden that it places upon it. Indeed, it is precisely this mechanism which demonstrated to both the Government and the ABPI that the current PPRS was not operating as expected during 2016—something to which the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, referred during our previous sitting.

We had constructive discussions with the ABPI during 2016 about why the spend measured by the PPRS and used to calculate payments under the scheme had fallen, compared to the real growth in NHS spending on branded medicines, which continues to rise. Joint analysis of company data by the ABPI and the Department of Health shows that the NHS is spending more than ever on branded medicines, with spend growth in 2016 likely to be around 5.3% of the budget.

It became clear that the cap mechanism was not capturing significant areas of branded medicines spend—in particular, parallel imports. Also, some companies left to join the statutory scheme, or divested individual products from the voluntary to the statutory scheme, but this growth was not captured by the PPRS methodology. Without action, this would have led to a significant drop in income from the scheme while branded medicines spend continued to rise, which is obviously against the spirit of the agreement. After a short period of very constructive negotiation just before Christmas, we agreed a new deal with the ABPI to cover the last two years of the scheme, details of which I set out in a Written Ministerial Statement published last week, I think—it has been only three and a half weeks, but it feels longer. This shows how well industry and the Government can work together to develop and maintain voluntary arrangements, but we can do so only with the right information available.

We have provided illustrative versions of both the information regulations and the statutory scheme regulations. I emphasise that these regulations show that the Government have no intention of routinely collecting information on profits. They do, however, set out the circumstances in which the Government might want to collect information about profits.

First, the illustrative regulations set out that we would be able to ask for information related to products where a company asks for a price increase under the statutory scheme regulations. To agree such an increase, the Government require assurance that the product is no longer profitable at its current price. Information on profitability is therefore crucial to determine this.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, I have a little list, which is a bit bigger than the Minister’s list.

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

Have you seen it?

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

Indeed so. In following the remarks of the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, this is really a probing question. Lists are generally avoided in primary legislation for the obvious reason that you need flexibility. I can see why a list of bodies has been put into paragraph (11) of the draft regulations. At this stage, I am just puzzled to know why those organisations which are in the list have been chosen and why others have not.

First, I see that the BMA is in the list. I assume that is because it represents dispensing pharmacists, but I would be grateful to have clarification. I think that may have been clarified. For instance, why is the British Healthcare Trades Association not in the list? Clearly, its membership, although sometimes the same, is rather different from the ABHI. There are other organisations that I have put down to probe how the department has come to that list. When we know that, we can then come back to the general principles that the noble Baroness has so rightly raised.

Health Service Medical Supplies (Costs) Bill

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 23rd January 2017 Grand Committee

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

My Lords, I am grateful to noble Lords for raising the issue of reporting requirements. We will address at the end the issue of access and my sympathy to reporting requirements, but I first want to deal with the amendments as they stand.

Under the current PPRS, the Government regularly publish information relating to the operation of the voluntary scheme. Of course, for a future statutory scheme I draw attention to the regulations that we have already discussed, in which there are annual reviews of the regulations and a requirement to publish a report on each review. The illustrative regulations require an annual review that will: set out the objectives of the scheme; assess the extent that our objectives have been achieved; and assess whether those objectives remain appropriate. These requirements will be tested through the consultation on the regulations and we will, of course, take account of those views. I totally accept that reporting is a critical principle, but believe that setting out the requirements in primary legislation is too restrictive because of the potential to change from year to year what the priorities are within a sector and within the NHS.

Turning to the specifics of Amendment 9, I reassure noble Lords that the content of annual reviews would not be restricted to reviewing objectives. They must also be able to address key issues arising during the year that might affect the operation of the scheme, so there is flexibility there. We also intend for the annual review to be published and put before Parliament, so there is the opportunity for that to be seen and discussed. On the details of what it is proposed to report—in particular, how the payments are used—to achieve the specific aims of the amendment, the department would need to ring-fence the funds and monitor where the payments are used. I do not want to rehash our discussion about ring-fencing. I take seriously the point that noble Lords make about driving access to innovative drugs but we do not think this is the right way of doing it.

Nor do I believe that, through these means, it is right to address matters relating to the NHS duty to promote innovation. This Bill is ultimately about controlling the cost of medicines and medical supplies. The NHS Act 2006 puts duties on the Secretary of State to take into account both the need for medicinal products to be available for the health service on reasonable terms and the costs of research and development, which is a big factor in innovation. By taking into account these factors, the Secretary of State is looking at the needs of the industry to support the R&D base as is necessary to support the development of innovative medicines and technologies.

The NHS duty to promote innovation is different. It is about promoting innovation in the provision of health services and there is an extremely broad agenda that goes well beyond medicines. We have already said that we all want to make the UK the best place in the world to design, develop and deploy life sciences products. We do not believe that the Bill will have a negative impact on our doing so. We have also talked about the accelerated access review, so I will not go over that.

Turning to the specifics of Amendment 10A, the supply of medicines is highly complex, and pricing is one part of it. Other issues of course include rigorous safety and quality standards. Difficulties faced in the take-up or availability of medicines can be influenced by a number of reasons which are nothing to do with pricing. There can be manufacturing problems, such as batch failures; changes in guidelines, such as antibiotic switches; and raw material problems, as well as regulatory changes.

For example, in 2015, there was worldwide withdrawal of a branded antipsychotic injection, Piportil, due to a global shortage of the active pharmaceutical ingredient. Sanofi was unable to find an alternative source of this ingredient and had to discontinue the product. I set that out to illustrate the point that it is not always easy to link changes in pricing to issues of availability or access: there are other things to take into account. That is why we do not believe that we should set out, either in primary legislation or beyond the commitments made in the illustrative regulations, specifically to assess the impact on availability, access and so on.

Leaving all that aside and returning to the recurring theme of the debate, I understand the desire for greater transparency, which is undoubtedly the right approach to access. We must think about how we can improve access to innovative medicines for NHS patients and, in doing so, improve the operating conditions, if you like, for the life sciences industry—the win-win situation to which we keep returning. I would be happy to meet noble Lords either individually or collectively to think about what more we could do, whether through the Bill or looking ahead to the life sciences strategy, to ensure that we deliver on this promise. I take very seriously the warnings that many noble Lords have issued; the Government absolutely want to address this. On that basis, I ask noble Lords not to press their amendments.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister. On the two arguments he put forward against the amendments, he said, first, that primary legislation would be too restrictive and what one might need to report on one year, one would not in another. The three amendments cover payment, supply, R&D and innovation. I do not think that there would be any year in which it would not be appropriate to report on them. He also said that duties in existing legislation cover some of these areas, and that where they do, such as the duty on innovation—presumably in the 2012 Act—they go wider than the intent in the amendments. I fully accept that. None the less, there is a strong argument for progress being monitored and for Parliament to be involved in that. However, I am grateful to the Minister for agreeing to have further discussion about the core issue of access, and I hope that we may take this forward. In the meantime, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

I thank noble Lords for the debate on Clause 5. I am also grateful for the tour d’horizon or history lesson on how this has all come about. It feels as though it has slipped through many nets, for which there are multiple responsibilities around the room.

I will first address the point about consultation. Noble Lords will appreciate it when I say that, personally, I have not had the chance of undertaking that consultation but it is something that I am committed to doing. Whatever has gone before, I can at least give the reassurance that I will meet the relevant bodies in the next few weeks and discuss their concerns ahead of Report. At least in a forward-looking way, I can provide that reassurance.

As everyone has stated, the critical point here is that the 2006 Act gives the Secretary of State the power to control the price of medical supplies and to collect information about medical supplies. What Clause 5 does is to ensure that the same enforcement and territorial extent to provisions apply to controlling the cost of medical supplies and health service medicines. It does not give the Secretary of State any new powers to control the price of medical supplies. There are currently inconsistencies in the enforcement and territorial extent provisions. For example, a contravention or a failure to comply with the current provisions in the 2006 Act for medical supplies can result in a criminal offence. By contrast, the equivalent penalty for medicines is a civil financial penalty. Clause 5, therefore, aligns the enforcement provisions for medical supplies with those for medicines and, in so doing, makes them more proportionate, as the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, has pointed out.

With respect to the territorial extent, the power to control the prices of medical supplies in the NHS Act 2006 currently extends only to England and Wales. Clause 5 would extend the power to control the prices of medical supplies to Scotland and Northern Ireland. That would be consistent with the territorial extent of the powers to control the costs of health service medicines. That is an important point.

A number of noble Lords asked why the Government need the powers to control the prices of medical supplies when they do not currently use them nor have ever used them. That is a perfectly reasonable question to raise and one that occurred to me, too. We do not have any immediate concerns about the pricing of medical supplies. It is true that the market for medical supplies is very different from the market for medicines. It is innovative and competitive, and new medical supplies are generally faced with competition much more quickly than is the case for new medicines. However, I remind noble Lords that until recently we did not think that we needed the powers to set the price of unbranded generic medicines. We thought that competition in the market was working well and keeping prices down. When we realised that the market was not functioning as well as we thought with respect to certain products, and we were faced with companies charging unreasonably high thresholds where they had no competitors, we realised that we did not have sufficient powers to intervene when needed. That is of course one of the reasons for the Bill.

A question was asked about thresholds and when such a provision could be triggered, which is a reasonable question. The two examples I can give are when we had evidence from existing data that there may be an issue with pricing—for example, the reimbursement price that we set in primary care is increasing without an obvious reason—or when there is effectively a bottom-up complaint where patients, clinicians, commissioners or industry raise concerns because it is not obvious what is driving a price rise. I want to minimise the need for future primary legislation on medical supplies pricing controls. The Government should have the ability to intervene, but only when the market is not working well. Whether it is for medicines or medical supplies, it is right that those powers exist but are used only when necessary and proportionately. On that basis, I ask the Committee to agree that Clause 5 stand part of the Bill.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his response. I also thank him for his consultation and willingness to meet bodies before Report, which I am sure will be very welcome. I understand the first argument, which is that there is a need to ensure consistency in relation to this Bill and the 2006 Act. I fully understand that. I also understand the change from criminal to civil penalties. But we then come to the issue of whether this provision should be in statute at all. The Minister himself has acknowledged that this is a different market, with competitive tendering. It is very competitive. We can see no evidence that this measure has been used for 40 years, and as far as I can see there is no evidence to suggest that it will be used any time soon.

The Minister said that it was not thought that the switch from branding to generics would arise in relation to medicines, and therefore that we should look into a completely different sector and say that because something might happen in the future we need to have this overarching provision in the Bill. But that is not the right approach. It has become clear that there are two courses of action. One is to take this out of the 2006 Act altogether, which at the moment I rather favour. We should not regulate for something that might happen in the mystical future.

I, too, was a better regulation Minister and it was drummed into me that if you do not need it, get rid of it—and if you do not need it, do not legislate in the first place. In his heart of hearts, surely the Minister realises that this is unnecessary. The alternative approach is to take the threshold he suggested and put it in the form of an amendment so that we have some reassurance on the face the Bill that it will not be used inappropriately. Those are two particular options.

In my tour d’horizon, as the noble Lord said, I came across the comments made by the noble Earl, Lord Howe, in 1999 when my noble friend Lady Hayman was taking one of the many health service Bills through your Lordships’ House. The discussion was not about devices but about the PPR scheme, because the then Government had taken powers in relation to prices. The noble Earl, Lord Howe, said that the Government had,

“arrogated to themselves sweeping powers to bring the current voluntary scheme to an end and to control the price of any drug at will. Lower medicine prices are appealing but too much of that will kill the golden goose”.—[Official Report, 9/2/99; col. 118.]

If the noble Earl, Lord Howe, were here arguing for this Bill, I think that he would have reflected that the case had not been made for non-health service medicines to be involved. We need to find a way forward between this stage and Report, otherwise the persuasive argument will be to remove the offending sections from the 2006 Act.

Mental Health: Children’s Services

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Thursday 19th January 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what is their assessment of YoungMinds’ analysis published on 21 December 2016 that 64 per cent of Clinical Commissioning Groups are diverting new funding for children’s mental health services to other areas.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Health (Lord O'Shaughnessy) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government are working with partners in the NHS and elsewhere to deliver an ambitious programme that improves access to high-quality mental health care for children and young people. This is backed by significant additional investment. NHS England’s new five-year forward view for mental health dashboard shows each CCG’s spend and activity on children’s mental health, as part of the robust assurance processes we have put in place.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that. No one can doubt that Ministers have made all the right noises on developing mental health services for young people. The problem is in the execution. He mentioned extra money, but he will know that the promised £1 billion is simply not getting through to the front line. A recent survey by YoungMinds showed that about 50% of CCGs were simply not using the money that they had been given in their baseline budgets for mental health services for young people. With one in four young people not getting access to services and it being not until 2021 before we stop the appalling practice of young people having residential care hundreds of miles from their homes, there is grave doubt as to whether this will happen in practice. Will the Minister agree to consider ring-fencing this money to ensure that it is actually spent on young people?

Health Workers: Training

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Lord O'Shaughnessy

Wednesday 18th January 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord O'Shaughnessy]

I thank the noble Lord for his welcome. The WHO has identified a global shortage of medical staff of more than 2 million, so clearly there is a big need and, as he says, it is being driven by the development of countries, particularly those with large populations, and the need to grow their own staff. At the moment, about 25% of NHS staff in the UK come from abroad and, like all NHS staff, they do a fantastic job for us. Clearly, given the problem that the noble Lord identified, we will need to become less reliant on overseas staff, which is one reason driving our desire to increase the number of training places for doctors, nurses, midwives and others.

In answer to the second part of his question, I think something like 10 of the world’s top universities are based in the UK. We are a world leader in education; that is a great strength of ours and something that we want to continue. Healthcare UK is the government body responsible for working with universities to unlock partnerships with other countries, and there have been a number of successful examples of where that has happened.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, if we are such a world leader in education, it is disappointing that the Government are doing everything they can to stop overseas students coming to our universities to study. On the NHS, the Minister will know that it is under the most extreme pressure. Cancer operations are being cancelled, people are dying on trolleys waiting for beds, and all the Government can do is attack general practitioners. Has the noble Lord seen the NAO report this month which shows that, since 2010, almost as many GPs have left the service as joined and that falling retention and increasing retirement rates put the target of 5,000 extra GPs at risk? The Minister says that the Government hold NHS staff in high esteem, so why do they not talk to and work with GPs to put this right rather than slagging them off?

[Lord O’Shaughnessy]

I do not recognise the description of “slagging off”. We know that GPs do a fantastic job and we are recruiting more of them—5,000, as the noble Lord said. More money is going into general practice as part of the five-year forward view. The Prime Minister in her statement paid tribute to the work that GPs do and said that there were obligations around extended hours and the provision of out-of-hours healthcare—and it is quite right, with the pressures we face, that every part of the healthcare system steps up to fulfil its responsibilities just as others are doing, in order to meet the pressure we are under.