Health and Care Bill

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Baroness Masham of Ilton

Lords Hansard - Part 2 & Committee stage
Wednesday 26th January 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Masham of Ilton (CB) [V]]

My Lords, I shall speak to Amendments 178, 266 and 293. Amendment 178, which was tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Sharkey, is important for people with rare and less common diseases. The amendments could be a lifeline for people who have rare conditions who use products that may be the only substances that work. There is an enormous selection of rare conditions. It can be a desperate situation when some medicines are developed but take a long time to be given the all-clear by NICE. Some medicines are not available in England on the National Health Service but are available in other countries, sometimes even in Scotland. That is devastating and frustrating.

I support Amendments 266 and 293, on the cosmetic surgery industry, which must be made safer. It is extraordinary that this business is only partially registered. Many people who have such a procedure take for granted that the practitioner will be registered and fully insured. There have been some disastrous results when things go wrong with a beauty procedure. I know of some plastic surgeons who work only in the National Health Service, as they do not want to be tarred with the same brush as uninsured cowboys. Amendments 266 and 293 deal with a wide selection of cosmetic procedures, some of which are psychologically important to many people. There is wide interest in making this trade safe and getting it registered. I hope the Minister realises that this is an important matter that needs putting right.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, I have Amendment 176, the second amendment in this group, and two other amendments. I shall start with Amendment 176 which is concerned with the treatment of thyroid patients who continue to be denied liothyronine, otherwise known as T3, as the most appropriate treatment for them. For some patients, the standard treatment is not effective. T3 has proven to be a much better treatment, but tragically, a few years ago the manufacturers grossly inflated the cost of T3 by a massive 6,000%. Understandably, NHS England and its associated prescribing advising machinery strongly discouraged the use of the drug and, as a result, many patients had T3 withdrawn and suffered quite considerably or had to fund it privately or source it from abroad. Happily, the price of T3 has come down by 75%, although it could go down further, but I believe it is no longer categorised as a high-cost drug.

The problem is that clinical commissioning groups still treat it as a high-cost drug, so the situation is still very difficult for patients who need it—those for whom the standard treatment is not appropriate. The current guidance states that T3 can be prescribed to patients who have unresolved symptoms on the standard treatment if it is initiated or confirmed following a review by an NHS consultant endocrinologist. A statement in July 2021 restated NHSE guidance, but it has not been followed by clinical commissioning groups. A survey done recently by UK thyroid charities, to which I pay huge tribute, says that 44% of CCGs have not fully adopted the national guidelines or are wrongly interpreting them.

What are we to do? What is the situation here, where we have clear guidance that is not being followed? This goes back to our previous debates about the various mechanisms being brought in to ration treatments, against national guidance or technology appraisal advice from NICE. It is the same issue. I am not expecting the Minister to issue a direction but I am expecting him to tell CCGs and, in future, integrated care boards to get off their backsides, start implementing the guidance properly and realise that this is no longer such a high-cost drug. I appeal to him to do something about that.

I also hope that the Minister will do something about hospital catering. I confess to your Lordships that I am president of the Hospital Caterers Association, where I work very closely with some great professional staff who have to work with their hands tied behind their back. Often they do not have the resources to provide the high-quality food that everyone wants and expects.

During Covid we saw in many local NHS facilities a determination to do everything possible to improve nutrition for both patients and staff. Miraculously, hot food was made available to staff overnight, which, as noble Lords know, seems to have been beyond the capacity of the NHS for many years. I do not know why I am looking at the former Chief Nursing Officer as I say this; I think it is an appeal for support.

This clause is highly welcome as I believe it will lead to higher standards, but my amendments would enable the caterers to deliver on them. The first key point is this: they need the resources to be able to do it. The amount of money spent on hospital food per day at the moment is simply not sufficient. Secondly, we need more training for staff. The training programmes have disappeared, and we need to get them back in to give staff the opportunity to show what they can do. Thirdly, we need to make sure that NHS trusts and foundation trusts are fully on board with bringing forward these regulations. There is no doubt that the efficiency programmes have taken their toll on the budgets for hospital catering and that, equally, the old-style national training schemes fell away and have not been replaced. The pay grade of qualified chefs and cooks needs to be reviewed to reflect the importance of their role. This issue is important in terms of the standards of food and nutrition for our patients and for the well-being of our staff.

My final amendment in this group is Amendment 264. What links all these amendments is that we need more consultants appointed—a small effort to enable us to improve the efficiency of the system. I remind the Committee of my GMC connections in relation to this. The amendment would add the Royal College of Surgeons of Edinburgh and the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons of Glasgow, and their associated dental faculties, to the colleges that may be involved in the appointment of NHS consultants. My amendment was inspired by the Royal College of Surgeons of Edinburgh, which noble Lords might be surprised to learn has an office in Birmingham because many consultants who work in the English NHS are members of the Scottish colleges.

There seems to be a lacuna in the current regulations. According to the National Health Service (Appointment of Consultants) Regulations 1996 and subsequent guidance issued by the department in 2005, only the Royal College of Surgeons in England is permitted to review surgical consultant job descriptions and send a royal college representative to the advisory appointment committees when it comes to the appointment of consultant surgeons. Other elements of my amendment apply to the appointment of physician clinicians, and the Royal College of Physicians of Edinburgh and the Royal College of Emergency Medicine are also supportive. Although the process and guidance apply only to NHS trusts, foundation trusts are encouraged to follow it.

The Minister has yet to accept any amendment to the Bill. The usual line from the Government is, “We will do this when legislation is available to do so.” Here is a great opportunity for the Minister, as we are here on day 6 of Committee, to get up and say that he is going to accept my amendment.

Medicines and Medical Devices Bill

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Baroness Masham of Ilton

Report stage & Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords & Report: 1st sitting & Report: 1st sitting: House of Lords
Tuesday 12th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Masham of Ilton (CB) [V]]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Field of Birkenhead, who moved this amendment so movingly. This debate has gone on for many years.

It has been found by parents that medical cannabis can help some children who have multiple seizures due to epilepsy. I need to know: has NICE approved it? If it is waiting for more research, there will have to be more people using medical cannabis so that the information can be collected. If it is helping, doctors who understand the problems need to be the people who prescribe it. It should be carefully monitored. If it gives better quality of life, why should it not be prescribed? I hope the Minister will do his best to see that it is.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I am really grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Field, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Meacher and Lady Walmsley, for sponsoring this amendment and for the powerful speeches they have given.

Last week, I heard Hannah Deacon talk on the “Today” programme about her son Alfie and the devastating consequences of Brexit and the impact of the inability to import Bedrocan from Holland. I know the Government have been active, and I very much hope the Minister will be able to report progress tonight.

That is the immediate issue, but of course there is then the long-standing issue that, when Parliament agreed to the legalisation of medical cannabis under prescription, there was a distinct impression that NHS patients would receive medical cannabis where appropriate. It is very clear that the NHS is not prepared to do that. The small number of prescriptions and the approach of the various bodies that advise the health service on commissioning make it abundantly clear that, unless Ministers intervene, patients will simply not be able to get these products in a legal way.

I say to Ministers that, with the campaigns, it is obvious there will be increasing noise, increasing concern. They really will have to step in and find a way of getting access to these products for patients. It is inevitable that it will happen, and it is better than they do this now rather than wait for another three, four or five years. I remind them that, when the legislation went through, the Home Secretary at the time said:

“We have now delivered on our promises … we will work with the NHS to help support specialists in making the right prescribing decisions.”


That simply has not happened.

I suggest four approaches: first, the All-Party Parliamentary Group on Medical Cannabis under Prescription believes that the only way to help families at the moment, and to make sure the policy does not stall completely, is to set up a small fund called something like the medical cannabis access fund, which can be used to help those families, until the blockage on NHS prescription eases.

Secondly, we have to come to the issue of research. I know the Minister is frustrated—he repeated this today—because he thinks the companies producing these products should come forward and undertake clinical trials and tests. I am not an expert, but I have listened very carefully to noble Lords and to advice that I have received, which suggests that randomised control trials are very difficult in this area. In that case, surely the Government should revisit the NHS England report, Barriers to Accessing Cannabis-based Products for Medicinal Use on NHS Prescriptions. The report looked at the issue of research, and said that there should be randomised controlled trials but, alongside this:

“NHS England and NHS Improvement and NIHR in conjunction with the specialist network will work together to determine an appropriate alternative study design that will enable evidence generation for those patients who cannot be enrolled into a standard RCT.”


I gather that this has not happened. The Minister really should inquire into this. It would basically be an observational study; it would allow medical cannabis to be prescribed for large numbers of people and for proper research to be undertaken. I suggest to him that it would be a way forward, so that the current frustration of so many patients is responded to in a sympathetic but also practical way.

Health Service Medical Supplies (Costs) Bill

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Baroness Masham of Ilton

Ping Pong (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 26th April 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Masham of Ilton (CB)]

My Lords, I congratulate the Minister on his hard work on the Bill and his helpfulness. I have one question. As this is a global matter, how can the Government assure us that the prices of drugs will come down?

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, I look forward to the Minister’s answer to that last question. From the opposition Benches, I very much welcome the agreed amendment that has come forward from the Government today. It is good to see how wash-up can concentrate minds no end, and we have reached a very satisfactory outcome. I am very grateful to the Minister and his officials for their co-operation on this.

The Opposition have been in no doubt whatever that it is absolutely right to take action against those companies that have clearly been abusing the system. We should also pay tribute to the Times newspaper for its campaign, which has opened up some transparency in a pretty murky area.

There are two key issues that need to be taken forward. First, the key message of debates in your Lordships’ House is that, in seeking to deal with this particular problem, we must not underestimate the contribution of the pharmaceutical industry to this country, to the economy and to the life sciences sector. We have a problem in that we are incredibly innovative in the number of new drugs that are developed in this country, but the NHS is finding it increasingly difficult to invest in them and patients are not getting the benefit.

The second is the whole question of balance between the statutory and voluntary schemes—the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, referred to this. I have reached the conclusion that the current arrangements are simply not up to scratch in relation to how government should negotiate with the industry in the future. The patent lack of transparency about the real price paid by the NHS for individual drugs means, in my view, that the arrangements are no longer fit for purpose. I hope that the Government—whichever Government are in power post election—will look afresh at the need for new arrangements in negotiation which get a fair price and also lead to the adoption of innovative new drugs for NHS patients.

Can the Minister say when he thinks the Government will be in a position to implement the key provisions in this Bill in relation to prices?

Health Service Medical Supplies (Costs) Bill

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Baroness Masham of Ilton

Wednesday 5th April 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Masham of Ilton (CB)]

My Lords, I am all in favour of bringing down the price of drugs where possible, but patients’ access to new drugs is very important. For a long time, NICE has been very slow to approve drugs and that has caused great frustration for patients and the industry. What can the Minister do about orphan drugs? Not having them can be life-threatening for patients, but NICE has taken some of these drugs off the list. That is really serious for patients for whom they are a lifeline. Does Scotland not have a better system?

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

Well, that’s a question, my Lords. First, I declare an interest as president of the Health Care Supply Association and of GS1, the barcoding organisation.

I support the Motion in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Warner. I note what the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, says—that it is not a remedy for the problem being described—but it would send a powerful message to the Government. It is a message which, judging by the debate in the Commons on this matter, I am afraid Ministers in the Commons have not really heard, although I acknowledge that in his opening remarks today the Minister certainly turned to the crux of the issue.

Essentially, with a Bill that gives the Government huge power over drug prices—indeed, it gives them absolute power—the real concern is that NHS patients will not get access to new medicines as they would in other countries. This in turn puts at risk investment in R&D by the pharmaceutical industry in this country, which in turn threatens to undermine the life sciences sector. It is one of the most crucial sectors in this country and in our economy, and post Brexit must become even more important. Essentially, we are seeking to turn this into a virtuous circle whereby the NHS is seen to want to invest in new medicines and treatments, industry feels that the UK is therefore a good place in which to invest, and our life sciences sector grows and becomes even more important.

The problem is that over the last few years we have seen increasing rationing or restrictions on access to these new and effective drugs. We have had a short debate on NICE. I was the Minister first in charge of NICE, going back some years now. When it was set up, it was, first, deemed to be wholly independent of the NHS in its judgments, and secondly, designed to speed up access to new technologies and medicines. However, in the past few years the remit has changed. It seems to have been pushed almost into part of NHS management and budgetary control. The noble Lord, Lord Lansley, put his finger on it when he said that after NICE has reached a judgment that a medicine is both clinically and cost effective, NHS England has, in a number of ways, sought to put in additional controls. That is why there is concern about the new proposal: that if a NICE-approved treatment exceeds or is expected to exceed a cost of £20 million in any of the first three years, NHS England could ask for a longer period for its introduction. The Minister said that the budget impact test, as it has come to be known, is not a cap but a negotiating tactic. I understand that, but I put it to him that in the past few years NHS England has shown neither the willingness nor the capacity to do anything but reduce access for patients. It is very difficult not to see this as another hurdle.

Health Service Medical Supplies (Costs) Bill

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Baroness Masham of Ilton

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 23rd January 2017 Grand Committee

[Baroness Masham of Ilton (CB)]

My Lords, cost-effective medicines which work for patients are vital, but some orphan drugs will cost more. Why are there differences in the pricing of drugs in Scotland and England? Someone must be making a lot of money.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, that is a very interesting question. The exchange between the noble Lords, Lord Lansley and Lord Warner, has been very helpful in focusing on the full intent of the amendment. As it is the first day of Committee, I remind noble Lords of my presidency of the Health Care Supply Association and GS1, the barcoding association.

The amendment is essentially about the life sciences sector and the relationship to it of the pharmaceutical and medical devices and technology industry. However, inevitably, as the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, has shown, it is very difficult not to talk also about issues to do with PPRS and access, and I suspect that those other issues will be dipped into in a number of debates.

First, let me say that the Opposition are strongly in favour of closing the loophole that the core part of the Bill attempts to do. We clearly want to see the NHS get value for money and a good deal out of price negotiations with the different parts of industry it deals with in relation to the matters covered by the Bill. My noble friend Lord Young asked some very pertinent questions. The Minister in passing raised the issue of clinical pharmacology. This is a clinical profession that most clearly enables the health services and, indeed, Ministers to understand the true cost effectiveness and value of new medicines.

The UK is a world leader in clinical pharmacology but, because decisions about the appointment of clinical pharmacologists are made by the NHS, we are at risk of losing the whole profession. I was very disappointed that Health Education England proposed to reduce the number of training posts in its most recent consultation. We were very pleased to have a meeting with the Minister’s predecessor, the noble Lord, Lord Prior, on this, and I very much hope that the Government will be prepared to have a look at it.

This debate is about the contribution of the life sciences sector to this country. Briefly reading the consultation passed today on the industrial strategy I noticed that the introduction talks about the UK benefitting from an,

“open economy: pro-competition rules, flexible labour markets, less intrusive regulation”.

The question that one really wants to put, particularly as this is a sort of declaratory amendment is, if that is so, if—as the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, has suggested—the issue of life sciences post Brexit deserves a great deal of consideration, why have the Government brought what is clearly an overbearing regulatory Bill to your Lordships’ House? If ever I have seen an example of gold plating, this is it. We understand the need to close the loophole but I do not understand and I do not think we really saw a case made at Second Reading for why the Department of Health is determined to intervene in this sector in such a wide-ranging way. It is interesting that your Lordships’ Delegated Powers Committee has already pointed out the open-ended nature of the Government’s approach.

It is impossible to look at the health of the life sciences and the health of the pharmaceutical, medical devices and medical technology industries in this country without looking at the crucial issue of access. I know the Minister’s department is in denial about this and feels that access can be constantly reduced and will have no effect on investment in these sectors. I simply do not believe that that is so. The noble Lord, Lord Lansley, rightly said that this is one of the sectors that we want to protect and enhance—but I believe we are at real risk of losing its pre-eminence in this country.

I understand that the Secretary of State is shortly to go to North America to sweet talk the boardrooms of US pharma. I know the noble Lord, Lord Warner, has been there. I have been there, too. I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Lansley, has, too. The idea that the Secretary of State will not talk about access is naive. Access is a crucial part of investment decisions by these companies in the UK. The noble Lord, Lord Lansley, referred to the proportion of new chemical entities and top 100 medicines globally that have been developed in this country. I understand that it is now down to 14%. That is healthy compared to 3% turnover, but when I was the Minister responsible we were in the 20% to 25% range. So we have a horrendous decline in the influence of the UK sector. My fear is it is going to decline even further in the years ahead.

We will come back to the 2014 PPRS agreement. Potentially, the industry would have funded the widespread use of innovative medicines in the NHS. Between them, however, the Treasury, the Department of Health and NHS England have completely messed this up. We have ended up with the worst of all worlds, in which rationing in the NHS has reached appalling levels: CCGs are making some of the crudest rationing decisions that I have ever seen.

Health and Social Care (Safety and Quality) Bill

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Baroness Masham of Ilton

Friday 13th March 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Masham of Ilton (CB)]

I agree that there should be a culture of openness, honesty and transparency. When things go wrong, most people say, “I don’t want this to happen to anyone else”. There should be lessons learnt from mistakes, not cover-ups. This should be made as clear as possible.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, as noble Lords know, the Opposition support the Bill. However, issues have been raised which I hope the noble Earl, Lord Howe, will help to clarify.

I should like to pick up my noble friend’s point about whether this issue is raised at institutional or individual level. It looks as though the Bill focuses on individuals. Will the noble Earl confirm that it is his view that responsibility ultimately lies with the corporate boards which are responsible for the activities taking place in the National Health Service? If that is so, why does the Bill not list those bodies which it covers so that it would be clear who should take corporate responsibility?

Secondly, I take the noble Earl back to the Statement he made last week about Morecambe Bay. It was very telling when he talked about the concerns raised by Dr Bill Kirkup about the lack of a culture of openness and transparency. He said that,

“this report makes clear that there is a long way to go. It seems medical notes were destroyed and mistakes covered up at Morecambe Bay, quite possibly because of a defensive culture where the individuals involved thought they would lose their jobs if they were discovered to have been responsible for a death. However, within sensible professional boundaries, no one should lose their job for an honest mistake made with the best of intentions. The only cardinal offence is not to report that mistake openly so that the correct lessons can be learnt”.—[Official Report, 3/3/15; col. 160.]

Will the noble Earl say very clearly that that point, which I agree with, is not in conflict with the Bill, and in particular with Clause 1? It is very important—the last thing we want to do is discourage people from being open about mistakes. We do not want that to be an unintended consequence of the Bill.

Children and Families Bill

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Baroness Masham of Ilton

Wednesday 5th February 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Masham of Ilton (CB)]

My Lords, I welcome these amendments and I congratulate the noble Earl and all concerned. With this legislation there must be education. Smoking is a public health matter and I hope that local authorities will take up these measures with great energy and that the other place will accept them.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, this is an impressive suite of measures and we are all grateful to the noble Earl for bringing them forward today. My noble friend Lord Faulkner referred to the early discussions that he and colleagues across the House had with the Public Bill Office to ensure that it was in order to bring an amendment on smoking within the Bill, and so, with a little flexibility and the door slightly ajar, a great number of substantive changes have been made. The noble Lords who took that initiative deserve a great deal of credit.

I wish to speak principally to Amendment 41, to which I have added my name, in relation to the banning of smoking in cars, I say to the noble Lord, Lord Stoddart, when children are present. The main thrust of my amendment which was agreed to on Report has now been incorporated within the Government’s amendment. This will enable it to be sent to the House of Commons in a watertight fashion, where I hope it will be accepted. It follows the principle we have come to that there ought to be a ban on smoking in cars when children are present. As I acknowledged on Report, the details need to be consulted upon, and the Government have the ability to do that because of the regulation powers contained in the amendment.

Many noble Lords have been thanked today. I wish to add my thanks to them, particularly my noble friend Lord Faulkner, the noble Baronesses, Lady Tyler and Lady Finlay, and the noble Lord, Lord Ribeiro, for their work in this area. I should also mention the British Lung Foundation, which has done outstanding work to support this initiative, and of course also ASH, which has given general support on a number of these important amendments. I hope noble Lords will also acknowledge the work of my honourable friend Mr Alex Cunningham MP, who pioneered the Private Member’s Bill in the other place on which we have built our work.

Care Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Baroness Masham of Ilton

Wednesday 9th October 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Masham of Ilton (CB)]

My Lords, I apologise for having only just come into the Chamber, but I have been at an important meeting with representatives from a children’s heart unit. However, this Bill is also important, particularly these amendments. What the Minister gives us assurances about in this House does not always happen on the ground. The matter of housing provision for disabled people has caused aggro up and down the country. People are worried about it. If the Minister can be helpful today, that will do a lot of good.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, I support the noble Lord, Lord Best, in relation to Amendments 15 and 23. Obviously, we welcome the government amendments to which the noble Earl, Lord Howe, will speak shortly, but it seems that the amendments tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Best, point to areas where the government amendments do not really meet the needs. Amendment 15, on making available information about housing adaptations and on specialist and accessible housing as a key requirement of a local authority’s information service, was a clear recommendation of the Joint Committee. The noble Baroness has just illustrated why making such information available is so important. It could be very helpful in terms of avoiding the need for people to receive long-term care. We should not underestimate the challenge people face when simply trying to find their way through the system. We find it complex, so how much more difficult must it be for those with little experience of the care sector and the housing system? I believe that Amendment 23 is critical to the success of the Government’s own housing amendment. It would ensure a three-way integration that would be an explicit part of a local authority’s duty to promote efficient and effective local markets for meeting care and support. It would particularly ensure that it has regard to the importance of adults’ access to suitable living accommodation.

We know that many local authorities are doing this without any prompting from the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, or my noble friend Lord Beecham. I recently came across the housing for an age-friendly city programme. It seemed to be a really good illustration of how, if a recognition of the changing needs and support of older people is at your core, and you supply a range of care and support housing options as an alternative to residential care, it makes the essential connection between, for example, managing a long-term illness and living in the right accommodation, and the importance of extra care housing schemes that enable people to live independently for longer.

I also just came across a One Housing Group initiative in Islington. It is a scheme designed for 14 people who spend a maximum of 14 days in the centre as an alternative to acute NHS admissions. It has a drop-in centre and an emergency helpline, and this crisis recovery house helps 550 people a year. It keeps 87% out of hospital admissions. It was commissioned by the health service but it shows the interconnection between housing and health.

In responding to the noble Lord, Lord Best’s amendments, I hope that the Government might be prepared to reconsider this and come back at Third Reading with further amendments.

Care Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Baroness Masham of Ilton

Monday 10th June 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Masham of Ilton]

I would like to ask the Minister a question. I do so agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Browning, over Winterbourne; we do not want any more Winterbourne Views—and they can happen in any part of the country.

My question to the Minister is whether he would agree with me that, when it comes to crisis intervention and physical restraint techniques, all front-line staff should receive a national standard of training to deliver the best possible quality care and health services. Undermining best practice in this area is driven by three elements: a fragmented, unregulated training provider sector; procurement pressures, and commissioners’ and regulators’ roles in quality monitoring; and practice application. The people who have to be restrained are very vulnerable and, usually, mentally ill in some way. Is it really suitable for untrained people to do this job?

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, the noble Baroness takes us back to our debates last year on the regulation of health and social care support workers. We had some excellent discussions but, as the noble Baroness, Lady Browning, said, the Government set their face against the statutory approach without convincingly explaining to the House why they did not favour such a move. As far as I can see, the Government’s main objection appears to be cost; they are relying on better training and a voluntary register. But as the noble Baroness, Lady Greengross, pointed out, this may not be sufficient. As she says, unqualified care assistants are looking after very vulnerable people without the necessary training and support, and are being placed in a very vulnerable position. This is probably not the time to debate the loss of state-enrolled nurses, but my noble friend Lord Turnberg is absolutely right to say that the essential removal of the SEN grade has left a gap which needs to be filled.

My noble friend Lord Campbell-Savours points out that we are absolutely reliant on support workers to provide care. Many or most of them are actually very dedicated, but they are not being given sufficient tools to do the job effectively. One has to have great sympathy with the noble Baroness in her amendment.

Some noble Lords have said that it is not readily apparent why Health Education England ought to be the regulator. I certainly sympathise with that point, but no doubt the noble Baroness could easily substitute either the NMC or the HPC. We could no doubt come back to the question of which regulator it should be. The HPC has been somewhat acquisitive in past years in adding professions to its register, and would no doubt be keen to add healthcare and social care support workers to the large number of people whom it registers at the moment. As for the NMC, we understand that it has been through some difficulties in leadership and has a backlog of cases to be heard by its regulatory committees. But it has new leadership, and I am confident that it will be able to get through those problems—and, if it was chosen, it could also register health and support care assistants if that were to be required. So I do not think that there is an organisational issue in terms of difficulty in organising the regulation of support workers.

The Francis report has been mentioned by a number of noble Lords. This compelling report says:

“A voluntary register has little or no advantage for the public. Employers will not be compelled to employ only those on the register although they could be incentivised to do so”.

It concludes:

“It is not generally those who would seek voluntary registration who are the concern. It is those who will or would not seek voluntary registration but are still able to obtain employment who will be in contact with vulnerable patients”,

and those patients may not be appropriately protected. The Francis report says that this,

“need not be costly and can be self-financing”.

Amendments 23 and 23A, which we are going to come to, are very helpful but they do not do the job of regulation. Does the noble Earl think that the Government should reconsider their position in the light of the Francis report and of today’s debate?

Health and Social Care Bill

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Baroness Masham of Ilton

Wednesday 21st December 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Masham of Ilton]

My Lords, I, too, support the amendment. Having supported the Bill of the noble Lord, Lord Stevenson, it would seem wrong not to do so. I hope that the Government can speed up this legislation.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, this is a bit like Lords reform. If you deal with the bells question, you then have the Bishops. Is this part of a process of disestablishing the Church of England? I hope not.

We debated this in 2007 during the passage of the Mental Health (Amendment) Act. At the time, on behalf of the Government, I said that it was a matter for the House of Commons and that it was best that the Commons dealt with it. The fact is that the House of Commons has not dealt with it in four years. I hope that the Minister will say that the Government will accept this amendment. I am sure that the noble Baroness will find support on Report if not.

I have been looking at the draft House of Lords Reform Bill and I have quickly skimmed Part 7, which covers the whole range of disqualification of Members. I might have misread it, but I cannot find any reference to disqualification on the grounds of mental illness. Quite clearly, the Government do not think that it is relevant to an elected second Chamber. It certainly should not be relevant to the House of Commons.