Nicotine Inhaling Products (Age of Sale and Proxy Purchasing) Regulations 2015

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Baroness Finlay of Llandaff

Thursday 19th March 2015 Grand Committee

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Earl for introducing these regulations and welcome the way in which they have been drafted. Clearly, a great deal of care was taken in the drafting, and they seem eminently sensible.

It is most reassuring to know that the Association of Convenience Stores welcomes these regulations and the clarity that they provide. It says:

“We support strong enforcement against proxy purchasing of tobacco. We need to see these properly enforced, something that is lacking with the same powers that are in place for alcohol proxy purchasing”,

and that the penalty for proxy purchasing on e-cigarettes puts everything consistently in line. Indeed, it has welcomed the age restriction.

I was glad, too, to hear the reference to the Welsh study because it was the data from Wales that really began to make me personally concerned about these products. There is evidence of increased use among under-18s. I know some people will say that data from ASH are biased, but ASH has been fairly neutral in its view on electronic cigarettes because of the way that they have helped people quit ordinary tobacco cigarettes. It has found that the number of 11 to 18 year-olds who have tried an electronic cigarette increased from 5% in 2013 to 8% in 2014, although it did put the caveat around those figures that the use is closely linked with smoking behaviour.

One piece of research which is really important to have on the record is the work from Counotte and colleagues, published in Developmental Cognitive Neuroscience in 2011, which found that,

“nicotine exposure during adolescence can disrupt brain development bearing long-term consequences on executive cognitive function in adulthood”.

These are new products, with high levels of nicotine in them. We know that the propensity for the developing brain in the age group up until 25 years to develop addictions of all sorts, right across the board, and addictive behaviour is greater than in the older brain. There is a concern that exposure in the young leads to a much greater propensity to develop nicotine addiction.

I have been concerned at the way that these products are marketed, especially to the young, and about their appeal almost as a fashion accessory. When I have looked at those shops which specialise in selling these products, they have made me feel as if I was probably a bit too old to go and buy one. They seem to be marketed very much to a young, vibrant population, which I find alarming. If they are shown to be as addictive as they might be, this will create a long-term market for them in the future.

I have been to several meetings about electronic cigarettes, including one held here in your Lordships’ House at which I was concerned at the almost aggressive way in which vaping was being pursued by some people present, which set alarm bells ringing a bit in my head over the process. These regulations are proportionate, timely and welcomed by those who have the responsibility for selling these products. I am glad that they appear to have universal support.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, I welcome both sets of regulations. The Opposition fully support them. Like the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, I was very impressed by the evidence from the Association of Convenience Stores and its support for the regulations. It is very persuasive in relation to the introduction of a minimum age of sale and I commend the ACS for the responsible briefing that we were sent ahead of these regulations.

The noble Earl referred to the research, such as the Welsh data and the evidence we have received from ASH, and mentioned the CMO’s concerns. Essentially, although one can certainly see that these products can have a beneficial health impact for many adult smokers, there is this issue about whether children go to smoking through these e-products. Is the noble Earl satisfied that enough research is being undertaken at the moment, either through the traditional research areas such as the MRC and Wellcome or perhaps through Public Health England? I do not know if he has information about this, but clearly it would be good to know that his department is keeping a continuing watchful eye to ensure that enough research is being done. Particularly relating to children, there is enough uncertainty around to make us want to ensure that there is ongoing research on this.

I have another question for the Minister, raised by the evidence that ASH submitted to his department when it was consulting on the regulations. ASH says that there is real confusion about the relative risks of electronic cigarettes compared to smoking, not just among the general public but among health professionals. It quotes from newspaper articles saying that smokers have been given advice by medical people and have had the impression that it is nicotine rather than tobacco smoke that is harmful. ASH quotes a study presented at the UK National Smoking Cessation Conference; it was some years ago so the profession may be more up to date now, but in one study presented at the conference a substantial proportion of GPs incorrectly asserted that nicotine in cigarettes caused CVD, strokes and lung cancer.

The point that ASH makes is that at the same time as regulations are introduced, the Department of Health should promote better understanding of the relative harm of electronic cigarettes and other nicotine products, including those authorised as medicine and their potential benefit to smokers. I understand that with regard to children there are areas where we are uncertain, but there are areas where we are more certain as well. I would be interested to know whether any advice or guidance accompanying the regulations is to be given to medical practitioners in particular.

I welcome the proxy purchasing offence, which is something that we very much support. The Minister quoted cases of young smokers having their cigarettes bought for them by another person, and outlawing this will help to crack down on it and send a wider public message that this is wrong. The other point comes back to the issue raised by the ACS regarding the e-cigarette issue: introducing the offence will give greater power to responsible shopkeepers not to serve people who they know, or strongly suspect, are going to pass cigarettes on to children. Overall, we are glad to see these regulations and to support them.

Care Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Baroness Finlay of Llandaff

Wednesday 7th May 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, my amendment is Amendment 41A. As this is a new stage of the Bill, I declare my interests as a consultant and trainer with Cumberlege Connections, president of GS1 and chair of a foundation trust.

I am grateful to the noble Earl, Lord Howe, because we have clearly come quite some way since he introduced at Third Reading in your Lordships’ House the amendment relating to the rules on hospital closures. I hope, however, that he might see his way to moving a little further this afternoon. Closing hospitals is never an easy thing to do and I see a number of former Ministers in your Lordships’ House who bear the scars of hospital closure decisions. In my view, there is no doubt an urgent need to reorder and reconfigure services to allow for the centralisation of many specialist services to improve patient outcomes. Where the clinical evidence is persuasive, I would always support those service changes. We need to be more wary where service changes take place purely on the grounds of financial problems in a particular trust, especially if those changes have a negative impact on well run neighbouring services, where consultation is truncated and if there is an uneven playing field between the different commissioners—which is the subject of the amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay.

This all arose because of the problems in the use of the special administrator mechanism in the case of Lewisham. The South London Healthcare Trust was in huge financial difficulty; a special administrator was appointed and recommended that Lewisham hospital should have its A&E department downgraded and lose some other services as well. This caused outrage locally because Lewisham was not part of the South London Healthcare Trust, but was a well run and popular hospital, pitchforked into helping to solve a problem that was not of its own making. This ended up in the courts, which found against the special administrator and the Secretary of State. The judge concluded that the Lewisham GP commissioners had not given support to the proposal, which consequently constituted an additional reason why the decision of the Secretary of State could not stand.

The noble Earl, Lord Howe, always reminds the House that the legislative power that was used in the case of Lewisham was enacted under a previous Government. Indeed it was, but I stress that the original power was designed for something entirely different. It put in place measures to dissolve and rescue a trust through administrative reconfiguration. We never saw it as a vehicle for back-door reconfiguration across the health economy. The concern about Clause 118 is that it could allow hospitals to be downgraded or closed simply because they happen to be near a failing one.

I have listened carefully to what the noble Earl has said about the uses of this power. In both Lewisham and Staffordshire, where the power has been used in relation to the previous legislation that the noble Earl has amended, it has run into considerable trouble. In Staffordshire, where the process has also been used, an announcement was made in the last week or so that it has been put on hold. Essentially, the proposals of the special administrator have been roundly rejected by the local community, which shows the issues and problems when this mechanism is used to reconfigure services rather than simply deal with an immediate financial problem of a trust in great difficulty.

In the debate in the House of Commons, there was obviously much concern about this. The Government agreed that a committee should be established, under the chairmanship of Mr Paul Burstow MP, to produce guidelines on the trust special administration process. My amendment is simply designed to give those guidelines some statutory force. The decision of the Government to agree to this was very important and I am sure that, when the guidelines are produced, they will be sensible and set the context in which this mechanism can be used in the future.

However, my argument to your Lordships this afternoon is that it would give even more assurance if those guidelines had to come before your Lordships’ House and the other place for scrutiny and presumably for a decision to allow them to go through if they were found to be acceptable. I follow the precedent set by the Mental Health Act 1983, which gives Parliament a veto over the code of practice that provides guidance to those who undertake duties under that Act. The noble Earl has clearly moved a great deal on this issue over the past few days but it would be nice if he moved a little further.

As he responded to my amendment and that of the noble Baroness, Lady Finlay, perhaps I may save time for the House by asking him a question about the amendment that he has tabled in response to the noble Baroness. In his letter to us of yesterday’s date, he said:

“Our amendment would ensure that agreement is obtained from each commissioner on the basis that the administrator’s recommendations meet the objectives of the trust special administration and that they do so without harming essential NHS services they commission from any other affected trusts”.

He went on to say:

“Essential services at other affected trusts would be defined according to the same legal criterion that applies to commissioners of the trust in administration, thereby ensuring parity between all relevant commissioners”.

The wording that I want to ask the noble Earl about is:

“Our amendment would ensure that agreement is obtained from each commissioner”.

Does that mean that any one commissioner therefore has a veto over an eventual decision? That is how I read his letter. If so, does he agree that if that were used in the case of Lewisham, because the Lewisham CCG objected to the proposals, the proposals would not have gone ahead? If he does agree with my interpretation of his letter, how does he square that with what Dr Dan Poulter said in the Commons on 11 March, reported at col. 267? He said that while all local commissioners have an equal say, NHS England will arbitrate in the event of a disagreement. If, in the end, NHS England will arbitrate, that does not fill me with great confidence. NHS England will simply agree in the main with the original recommendations, because I am afraid that that is the track record of NHS England. In order to get absolute clarity here, I wonder whether the noble Earl could clear up any confusion around that.

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB)]

My Lords, I wish to speak to my Amendments 43A and 43B. I start by thanking the Minister and the Secretary of State for the amount of time they have afforded to me in discussing the concerns that lie behind my amendments. It is indeed correct that I was concerned that one clinical commissioning group commissioning from a failing trust could have a disproportionate say over the future. The government amendment, as tabled, addresses those concerns and I am most grateful to the Government for it. It establishes parity of commissioners by ensuring that there is no harm to essential services. I am also relieved that the Government are stating that the same legal criterion will be applied. Therefore, standard-setting across the services will establish that parity.

One of my concerns relates to the guidance. I would be grateful if the Minister could confirm that the committee of which Paul Burstow is the proposed chair will continue to exist. I think that there has been a lack of confidence among the public as a result of the publicity surrounding what happened at Lewisham. It will be very important that the guidance is seen to be drawn up and reported on separately. I must admit that I am uncertain about the mechanism for that. However, I certainly would be concerned if the detail of how the process is laid out is not openly and independently reviewed. The current guidance has to be rewritten anyway and that process could restore public confidence.

Energy Bill

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Baroness Finlay of Llandaff

Wednesday 6th November 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff (CB)]

My Lords, the amendment before the House today is greatly simplified from the one that I tabled in Committee. It is a regulation-making power, and that is all. It would allow the Government time to gather information from the review that was helpfully announced today. Northern Ireland and Scotland have already introduced a requirement to fit carbon monoxide alarms when new or replacement boilers or heating appliances are installed in a dwelling. In England and Wales a domestic carbon monoxide alarm is required only when a new or replacement solid fuel appliance is installed, and does not apply to other types of fossil fuel.

So far as we know, there has never been a death from carbon monoxide in the UK when an audible alarm has been present. The first part of the amendment concerns a recommendation from the inquiry by the All-Party Parliamentary Carbon Monoxide Group, which I chair, which recommended that the Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations 1998 be amended to require all rented properties to be fitted with an audible carbon monoxide alarm, manufactured to European Standard EN 50921. The amendment’s wording would ensure that any property, including local authority housing, rented housing, holiday lets, rented static caravans and other high-risk properties received attention around carbon monoxide that they currently lack. All carbon fuels, including biomass, are covered in the text of the amendment.

As I said in Committee, recorded figures on carbon monoxide poisoning are the tip of an iceberg. The true morbidity and mortality remain unrecorded. The current increases in fuel prices, along with the increased cost of living, mean that many are likely to forgo the annual servicing of appliances. Initiatives to increase home insulation have decreased draughts in houses, effectively making them sealed units, so that if carbon monoxide is produced the concentration steadily rises and thereby endangers life.

The second part of the amendment relates to fire and rescue services, such as the Chief Fire Officers Association voluntary Blue Watch scheme, which attempts to address the national absence of carbon monoxide alarms. It would allow others who fit or service fuel sources or appliances or meter fuel usage to supply, sell and fit an alarm. A co-ordinated fire rescue service response was shown with smoke detectors. Before the regulations changed, about 8% of homes had smoke detectors; now over 80% of households have a working smoke alarm.

The final part of the amendment would require a statutory instrument to be laid. That would ensure that Parliament was aware of the progress being made in addressing this silent killer, and would demonstrate how seriously the Government were taking the issue of these preventable deaths. I beg to move.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath (Lab)]

My Lords, I support the noble Baroness. I speak as president of CO-Gas Safety. Like the noble Baroness, for many years I have been concerned about the lack of action in relation to carbon monoxide poisoning. As she said, the official figures disguise the true extent of the problem. Because the official figures have not really reflected the size of the problem, various agencies, particularly the Health and Safety Commission, have never really been prepared to take this issue seriously. The noble Baroness has found an ingenious way to bring this to your Lordships’ attention within the Energy Bill.

This afternoon, the Minister gave a very welcome announcement in relation to a government review. However, we would like to see this issue go further. All that my noble friend is doing is setting a framework within which the Government can take action following such a review. I think it particularly important that it gives the Government a regulation-making power. As the noble Baroness has said, not only are the figures just the tip of the iceberg but there is a real concern at the moment about the cost of servicing appliances. If people put that off, particularly because of concerns about the cost of living at the moment, the risk to many people will be greater. For that reason, I hope that the Government might be sympathetic. If not, perhaps the noble Baroness will decide to press this at some point. I hope that she does.

National Health Service (Licensing and Pricing) Regulations 2013

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Baroness Finlay of Llandaff

Wednesday 10th July 2013 Grand Committee

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff]

I have a short query, which I hope that the Minister can clarify for me. It relates to the cross-border flow between England and Wales, either of providers or patients as users of services where NHS Wales is paying for services provided by NHS England or a provider in England. I would like reassurance that there will be no way that the experience of patients going from Wales into England, or the ability for providers from Wales to provide services to patients along the border, are in any way jeopardised within these arrangements and that they have equality within the provision.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, I declare an interest as chair of an NHS foundation trust, president elect of GS1 UK and a consultant and trainer with Cumberlege Connections. I am grateful to the Minister for his explanation of these regulations. I want to put a few points to him.

I start with Part 2 on licensing, specifically paragraph 3 concerning monetary penalties. Can I ask the Minister about the logic of fining providers, when all that happens is that worse care will be provided for patients as the organisation will have less money? I think that the figure of up to 10% of turnover would virtually bankrupt most providers. While I certainly accept the need for penalties and consequences for failure, I wonder whether they would be better being not financial, as the reality is that they will not happen in many cases because the people who suffer will be those who get services. I just wonder about the logic of that.

It took NHS England months to wake up to the fact that the A&E problems were to do with the failure of systems, but for months it was pressing CCGs in some parts of the country to fine hospitals for poor A&E performance. I think that NHS England has completely lost the plot when it comes to understanding what is happening in the health service. I cannot think of a more hopeless response to the crisis than to come along and say, “We should fine hospitals”. I worry about this whole approach to fining. I say to the Minister that there are very limited signs that systems understand the winter problems and there is a real reluctance to get to grips with what needs to happen. This is a worry for the future which may not have much to do with the regulations, but my seeing the Minister here represents a good opportunity to raise them with him.

Does the Minister think that fines and targets can lead to some perverse incentives? Of course, it is right to issue targets, but I wonder whether the Minister might comment on a very interesting section of the Chief Medical Officer’s Report for 2013, published earlier this year, where she refers to the low number of instances of MRSA and C. diff. I do not think that there is any doubt that the targets that were set for the health service have been responsible for the focus that has led to this very welcome improvement. My understanding is that part of the response to this by the NHS has been to use antibiotics which should have been reserved for hard-to-treat infections. There is now real concern that the antibiotics that go with those hard-to-treat infections have been used rather widely, which is causing great problems in more general infection control. According to the CMO, while the typical, large, 1,000-bed acute NHS hospital has two to three MRSA bacteraemias per year and 50 to 60 C. diff cases, 400 to 500 bacteraemias involving Gram-negative bacteria can occur in a 1,000-bed-type hospital, 10% to 15% of them being due to strains resistance to those antibiotics for hard-to-treat infections. You can reach a point where individual targets become counterproductive because the focus of the NHS is simply on C. diff and MRSA and not on the wider infections which clearly need to be tackled as well.

Will the regulations lead to more specific targeting which can in turn lead to perverse incentives, or is a more sophisticated approach likely to be taken? It is clear that the Chief Medical Officer is concerned about the way in which some MRSA and C. diff targets are leading to perverse behaviours.

On Part 3, the rationale for each of the thresholds described for penalties, prices and licence changes has not been explained in relation to an evidence base. In other words, why are the thresholds where they are? What work has been done to suggest that those are the right thresholds? Of course, now they will only be tested post-implementation, but it would have been good to have seen a clearer review mechanism that enabled a sensible approach.

In respect of the mechanisms to lodge an objection to the pricing methodology, my understanding is that the Foundation Trust Network has stated throughout the development of the policy that the 51% threshold for an objection, together with the denominator comprising all tariff services, is too high a threshold to be met. Is the noble Earl prepared to look at this? That might be a reasonable approach for general objections to the general approach, but it is insufficiently sensitive to address sections of the tariff that may be inadequately compensated—cancer services, for example. The noble Earl will be aware that there were issues around the tariff for children’s services and women’s services. My reading of that is that if you were a specialist adviser your chances of reaching the 51% threshold would be very limited. Could this be looked at?

If my noble friend Lord Warner were here I am sure he would raise this. It is the question of what happens to non-foundation trusts. I know that Monitor is working closely with the NHS Trust Development Authority, but I would welcome clarity about what will happen to trusts outside Monitor’s remit to ensure that there is an even-handed approach across all providers in the sector. No one is more admiring of the work of Sir Peter Carr as chair of the NHS Trust Development Authority. The noble Earl knows that Sir Peter has held chairmanships under both Governments for many years. While he is a marvellous person, there is a fear that he will hold the chairmanship of the NHS Trust Development Authority for many years to come because of the issue about what on earth will happen to those non-foundation trusts that are clearly not going to reach FT status any time soon.

The noble Earl mentioned the Competition Commission.

Health and Social Care Bill

Debate between Lord Hunt of Kings Heath and Baroness Finlay of Llandaff

Wednesday 8th February 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Finlay of Llandaff]

My Lords, I would also like to formally record an enormous welcome to these changes to the Bill. What has been said in particular by the noble Lords, Lord Willis and Lord Warner, is very pertinent regarding the need to keep questioning. The one thing now that can happen is that those who are actively involved in research can actually question if they get blocked, in a way that they could not before. I think that they will be very bright and questioning people who will make it known if they are not able to do the research that they see needs to be done for the improvement of clinical services.

Indeed, if we can speed up the processes, perhaps we can create an environment in which all patients and relatives understand that a research-rich environment is one that drives up standards of care, and therefore that they are not being experimented on but are being invited to participate when there is equipoise in the highest standards of monitoring that they could possibly have. The governance around research processes in this country is potentially second to none. We may then regain some of those external trials that up until now have, sadly, been bleeding from our shores. The amendments are incredibly important and their universal welcome is very appropriate. The Minister is to be personally congratulated.

[Lord Hunt of Kings Heath]

My Lords, from the opposition Benches we too welcome the amendments, which very much reflect the debate that we had in Committee on the importance of research. The Chief Medical Officer has paid a visit to Birmingham over the past two days; he gave a lecture at Birmingham University and visited my own trust to discuss research and the role of the NHS in it. My noble friend Lord Warner has put his finger on it: the question to the Minister is how we make sure that the NHS makes a sufficient contribution in future to the development and support of research. The Minister will know that the Chief Medical Officer is a passionate advocate of research and excellence in the NHS, and that is to be warmly welcomed.

There are some issues that need to be tackled. We have already heard about the issue of getting approval for clinical trials. We still have the problem, which has been with us for many years now, of local committees taking far too long and repeating work by other committees. I understand that there are some issues around the fact that, because foundation trusts are separate legal entities, they have to go through the process themselves, but if they join a clinical academic network some of that work can be reduced. I know that there is to be an announcement at, I think, the end of March about how these clinical networks are to be developed in the future. That is a very important way of enhancing research.

There is no question that the more we do in research, the better the outcomes not only for patients but for the UK’s reputation and economic well-being. Healthcare research is surely an area to which we need to give great priority. The noble Earl, Lord Howe, is of course responsible and we are very glad that he is leading this work. However, there is no doubt that, welcome though these amendments are, we should be given some assurance that the Government will now take them forward into the new situation with enthusiasm.