Local Government (Religious etc. Observances) Bill
Debate between Lord Hughes of Woodside and Lord Mackay of Clashfern
Lord Hughes of Woodside (Lab)
I will not delay the Committee long. For all my life, I have been an avowed atheist. I have no problem with that or with religion. I have no problem with exclusion, except in a narrow sense. On a more trivial matter, one of the big problems in your Lordships’ House is that those of us who wait outside during Prayers cannot get a seat when we come in. One of my suggestions is that we should have a couple of Benches set aside for the atheists, so that we can get a proper seat.
However, on a more serious matter, exclusion takes many forms, sometimes thoughtlessly. It is sometimes deeply wounding. On the day of the Charlie Hebdo assassinations, I received a text message saying that there was to be a minute’s silence before the commencement of business. When I came into the Chamber after Prayers, I was shocked to discover that the minute’s silence had taken place before Prayers, thereby totally excluding people such as me who do not come in for Prayers. I was deeply upset by that, and still am. Those people who preach, from a religious point of view, that they are tolerant and always think of others might think again. Those of us who are atheists have feelings and share values about society.
Lord Mackay of Clashfern (Con)
My Lords, it is often the case that the power of religion is sought to be harnessed for a mistaken purpose. We have illustrations of that in our situation today. A particular movement tries to hang on to some religion as its base because it believes that by that method it will increase its power and influence. The proper course for the Bill is for it to proceed, on the basis that there should be a majority ruling in the council. I cannot see, for the life of me, why there should be a special majority giving particular value to those who do not want prayers over those who do. Surely, equality of votes is the right way in which to go forward.
I can speak from personal experience, although I should not say “of course”, because I happen to be a Christian and have sought to be one for a good part of my life. Our scriptures tell us that if anyone lacks wisdom, he should ask of God, and God will give him that wisdom. I do not support the Bill on the basis of tradition but strongly support it on the basis that prayer can have a profound effect in this respect: I have to say, even in relation to addressing your Lordships’ House, one has to think about getting help to remove lack of wisdom, which I am particularly conscious of, because we face many difficult problems in this House. Wisdom, such as is prayed for here at the beginning of every session, is a valuable commodity.
It is not so long ago, and I am old enough to remember, when this nation was faced with a terrific disaster when the British Expeditionary Force was trapped just outside Dunkirk. His Majesty King George VI called for the nation to engage in prayer. Whatever noble Lords think about the causal connection, there is no doubt that a wonderful deliverance was afforded to our troops in Dunkirk. The way that they were delivered was nothing short of miraculous. I therefore support this Bill, not because of any tradition or because it has been done before, but because I think councillors, by majority, are entitled to have this privilege if they wish it.
Queen's Speech
Debate between Lord Hughes of Woodside and Lord Mackay of Clashfern(14 years, 6 months ago)
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Lord Mackay of Clashfern
My Lords, I consider it a great privilege to follow the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leicester, and I agree with many of the things that he said, particularly about the idea of having a large number of additional Members of your Lordships’ House. I do not know to what extent that is more than speculation, but I certainly hope that what he and others have said will be taken into careful consideration.
I begin by thanking the Labour Ministers for their kindness to me during their term of office. Unfortunately they did not always agree with me, but I hope that the voice of individual conscience will continue to be respected in our country, as it was in the past.
I particularly congratulate the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, on his appointment as Advocate-General for Scotland. I am glad that the Government have recognised the importance of having Law Officers who have a deep understanding of the political considerations and yet who at the same time are able to give independent and reliable legal advice.
My noble and learned friend is unique in a number of ways. I think that he is the only person to have served in a Scottish Administration and now serve in the Government of the United Kingdom. He is unique in another respect. As a Member of the Scottish Parliament, he formed with his colleagues a coalition with the Labour Party in Scotland. Now, of course, he has taken part in a coalition with the Conservatives here. That shows that a person of fundamentally Liberal Democratic principle can work well and in coalition with those who are willing to work with him. His career also underlines the danger of the advice that was given by one Cabinet Minister in the election campaign, that people should vote tactically. Another Cabinet Minister, more patronisingly, referred to the same idea as “intelligent” voting. I am glad to say that that principled Scot, the then Prime Minister, said that he wanted people to vote for what they believed in.
The principal thing I want to speak about is the proposal for fixed-term Parliaments. A fixed term for Parliament undoubtedly has the advantage of removing a great deal of opportunity for speculation. It also has the advantage of removing from a Prime Minister the temptation to go for an election when the party that he leads happens to be high in the opinion polls—or, occasionally, when he feels that there is a disaster around the corner and is anxious that the election take place before it comes. A fixed-term Parliament has an advantage in that respect. It also has the advantage of eliminating the situation already referred to when the Prime Minister, Gordon Brown, appeared to stimulate speculation that an election would be held shortly after he took office but it then did not happen. I gather from the newspapers—although I have no other way of knowing—that one result of that was abortive expenditure of fairly high sums by the Labour Party, which I am sure that it would like to have avoided.
Five years has been selected. I can see arguments for different lengths, but I can see a great deal of argument in favour of having fixed-term Parliaments. A matter that has attracted a lot of attention is the proposal for 55 per cent. As I understand it, because there is only a shorthand statement of it in the coalition agreement, the proposal is in no way to interfere with the rule that a Government lose their mandate to govern if they lose a no-confidence Motion in the House of Commons by 50 per cent plus one—of those voting, to go back to the point raised this morning. Fifty per cent of those voting plus one brings down the Government.
Lord Mackay of Clashfern
That seems to me to be much the same thing. I am perfectly happy to accept that formulation: a majority plus one—a majority of one. A majority is a majority of one; in other words, 50 per cent of the votes cast plus one. That is the way that I have understood it; I may be corrected if I have got it wrong.
If the Government in office lose the confidence of the House of Commons, it does not necessarily follow that Parliament should be dissolved, even under our present system where there is no fixed-Parliament rule. But if you have a fixed-Parliament rule, you must have some protection against easy and arbitrary dissolution. As I understand it, the proposal for a requirement of 55 per cent has been formulated for that.
In Scotland, when the Labour Government introduced the Scotland Act, they produced a requirement for a two-thirds majority for a vote for dissolution. Fifty-five per cent seems rather reasonable in comparison with that. It has been suggested in some quarters that that is because of proportional representation in Scotland, but the only effect of proportional representation is to make a minority government more likely than it is under a first-past-the-post system. The voting in the Parliament is one Member, one vote, so, in my judgment, the analogy with Scotland is important.
That is a separate question altogether from the collapse of or loss of confidence in the Government. If the Government lose a vote of no-confidence on the basis that we have discussed—I will not repeat it again—the result is that the Government are out of office, and the question is whether someone else could form a Government. Your Lordships will remember that at one point in the transition Mr Gordon Brown mentioned the possibility of an alternative coalition in the present House of Commons, so the idea of there being more than one person capable of forming a Government in that situation is perfectly reasonable.
We look forward to the legislation in detail, and I hope that, in framing it, those responsible will look closely at the detail of the Scotland Act, which I do not want to go into at present but which includes a safeguard in relation to the time: if no view can be taken by a time limit, dissolution arises.