Scottish Government: Expenditure

Debate between Lord Howell of Guildford and Lord Offord of Garvel

Tuesday 6th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

I thank the noble Lord for his tenacity on this subject, because I have now been in post for 18 months and this is the sixth Question I have answered for the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, on pretty much the same theme. It is a good theme: what do the UK Government do when they believe that the Scottish Government stray from devolved into reserved matters? We made some progress the last time we spoke in this Chamber; the previous Deputy First Minister, John Swinney, confirmed that he had taken away the £20 million that was going to be spent on the referendum on independence. But then, last week, we had the new head of the Scottish Civil Service, JP Marks, defending the appointment of the Minister for Independence, so we have sort of gone up a ladder and down a snake.

The issue here is that devolution, as devised by the noble Lord’s party, was conceived to be a construct in which the UK and Scottish Governments would work together in unity. It was not envisaged that we would have a situation in which the Scottish Government would seek every opportunity to find division and diversion away from Westminster, and therefore there are no practical levers or mechanics built into the devolution architecture for the UK Government to directly intervene in devolved matters, except through the courts. We already had the ruling in the Supreme Court. The UK Government’s position is to continue to ask the Scottish Government to focus on the real priorities of the people of Scotland and stop this obsession with independence.

[Lord Howell of Guildford (Con)]

My Lords, I acknowledge the death of Lord Morris KG, who was a remarkable Member of this House. Could it be that we are getting to the time when there is a need to revisit the demarcations as laid down in the devolution legislation? There seem to be constant disputes going on, particularly in the area of trade treaties, as well as foreign policy generally and memoranda of understanding, as to what is and is not reserved in rapidly changing industrial and economic circumstances. Can my noble friend consider that?

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for that question. In the Scotland Act, the devolution settlement is actually very simple. You can put it on one piece of A4; on the left you have devolved matters, and on the right reserved matters. The issue here is that since we have come out of the EU, in effect we have had to create a single market for the UK. The SNP loves the EU; it wants to be in a single market with 27 or 28 states, and agrees that there should be no divergence within that system. Post devolution, we now have a scenario in which we have four assemblies making laws in the UK but we want to keep the UK together. So now they are promoting a whole series of legislative moves that create divergence, which the people of Scotland do not want, especially in trade, not least as 60% of Scotland’s trade is with the rest of the United Kingdom and does not recognise borders.

Scottish Government: Ultra Vires Expenditure

Debate between Lord Howell of Guildford and Lord Offord of Garvel

Thursday 9th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

What is emerging from this very interesting leadership debate—what the newspapers are now calling civil war in the Scottish National Party—is that the obsession with independence has got in the way of their running a competent government to focus on the priorities of the people of Scotland. It might be worth noting that they have been in power for 15 years and during the first seven, First Minister Alex Salmond did manage to move the vote from 30% to 45%, but the second First Minister has actually gone backwards. What is now being debated in this leadership campaign is the need to focus on the priorities of the people of Scotland and get away from this independence obsession.

[Lord Howell of Guildford (Con)]

My Lords, I do not quite know how this Question got on to Scottish foreign policy. Will my noble friend bear in mind that although foreign policy is a reserved matter and not devolved, the Scottish international footprint is colossal and its influence very great? I think there is some justification in the feeling that Scotland has not in the past had adequate consultation and co-operation with foreign policy-making here in London. Will he therefore remind his colleagues in the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office that they should take full account of the power of the Scottish imprint and its influence on the international scene in promoting the United Kingdom generally?

[Lord Offord of Garvel (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for pointing that out. The Scottish diaspora is large and international, but international engagement is mostly focused on trade and is done by the Department for Business and Trade. Trade is a reserved matter, but it is also legitimate for Scottish companies to promote their activities internationally, along with the cultural aspect we have talked about. They can legitimately do that within the machinery of the UK Government, and we must allow them to continue to do so. We are just making sure that we do not have a separatist agenda being promoted to countries that I have to remind that the United Kingdom is still united.