National Insurance Contributions (Secondary Class 1 Contributions) Bill

Lord Howard of Rising Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 21st January 2025 Grand Committee

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

Indeed, but let us not get into that argument. What is the biggest problem facing the country? It is that more than 9 million people who are of working age and capable of working are not working. An argument that suggests that by making it more expensive to take people on, and then add to that—I am not making a Second Reading speech —employment protection, that this will not result in job losses and therefore is not a tax on employment is, even by the standards of great economists, stretching the argument too far. The consequence of this will be, as the noble Lord acknowledged, that some people will surely lose their jobs because employing them will become too expensive.

[Lord Howard of Rising (Con)]

I just say, in relation to that and to the noble Lord’s arguments, that what he completely forgets is that manufacturing companies faced with this will simply move their production abroad. That is what he forgets.

[Baroness Kramer (LD)]

Maybe I can be helpful by using the Library note on this occasion and a quote that it has from the OBR. The paragraph is headed “Labour supply”:

“The OBR expects workers and firms, respectively, may reduce labour supply and demand in response to lower wages and higher employer costs.”


That is a reference to these changes, including the NICs.

“It anticipates the measures in the bill may reduce labour supply by around 0.2%, or a little over 50,000 on an average-hours equivalent … basis, by 2029/30”.


Perhaps that quote about the OBR is helpful in the context of the conversation going on at the moment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness in Waiting/Government Whip (Baroness Blake of Leeds) (Lab)]

I understand that we have the grace of an extra 10 minutes after 7.45 pm. My understanding was that we would like to carry on and that noble Lords would come back if we do not finish the group. However, the Minister says that he is fine to break now, so if that is the will of the Committee then I am happy to do so. We seemed to be making real progress; I apologise for breaking any convention, but I am happy to be reasonable.

[Lord Howard of Rising (Con)]

There is also the point that there may be another Division within the next quarter of an hour.

[Baroness in Waiting/Government Whip (Baroness Blake of Leeds) (Lab)]

I understand that Amendment 17 has been withdrawn in the Chamber.