United Kingdom Internal Market Bill

Debate between Lord Hope of Craighead and Lord Empey

Committee stage & Committee: 3rd sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 3rd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 2nd November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Empey (UUP) [V]]

My Lords, as the noble Lord, Lord Hain, has said, much of the debate on this group has coincided with the next group and Amendment 131, and with what I was going to say on that group, so I will not exercise my right to speak then.

The word “confidence” has been used consistently, and it is the one thing currently missing. We do not have the support of any of the devolved Administrations for these measures, and it worries me that if we follow the same pattern in future, areas of conflict will arise, because there is no consensus on what we are trying to do. I take the point made by my noble friend Lady Noakes that this is a UK-wide body and you cannot expect the United Kingdom Government to be held to ransom by any of the devolved Administrations. I would not wish to see that.

Equally, however, we have, in our haphazard way—I have drawn the attention of the House to this before—provided devolutionary powers to these regions. As I said last week, we have a collision between the powers of the devolved institutions and what we are now trying to create. It makes sense, therefore—whichever way the Minister intends it in practice—to ensure that the devolved regions feel confident that they have someone at the table, in this new body, who understands their local circumstances and will speak up on their behalf, as well as exercising the UK-wide powers.

I must say that as far as my own region is concerned, while the Government will not allow the truth to pass their lips, from both the economic and state-aid points of view Northern Ireland is left in the European Union. We will be operating on EU state-aid rules and operating an EU regulatory regime. While we are all on the same page today, over time there will be differences. I do not believe, nor I do see any evidence, that Whitehall fully understands that. If we want proof of that, we were told a year ago to tear up any pieces of paper we were given and throw them in the bin; on 1 July we were provided with £25 million to ensure that our traders could deal with the paperwork and the administrative burden that they were going to be confronted with; and by 29 August that had risen to £355 million.

It is perfectly clear that there is a border in the Irish Sea, there are differences and the regime that businesses in Northern Ireland will have to operate under could well be very different over time, so having representation on this body is the minimum that we wish to achieve. I do not want to see a veto—I do not want to see a body that is crippled by disagreement—but people have to be realistic: if you give powers to the devolved Administrations then you cannot be surprised if they take offence when Whitehall says, “We know best and we will do things that you don’t agree with”.

I would say that we have created our own problems. I would like to see in response to some of these probing amendments the Minister address the point about how we get buy-in if we do not have broadly-based representation on the body that understands the different social, legal and economic contexts, particularly when one part of our United Kingdom is left under EU regulations and state-aid rules. I look forward to what the Minister has to say in that regard because we want to succeed. We have to move forward coherently and with restored confidence, because I have never seen it at a lower ebb than it is today. It would be so much better if the JMC were functioning as it was originally intended and if it were a forum where we could jointly work together on solving our problems. What we have achieved at the moment is a stand-off with the devolved Administrations, none of which support this legislation.

[Lord Hope of Craighead (CB) [V]]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Empey. I support Amendments 117 and 125, to which four noble Lords with a special interest in Wales have put their names. I should like to add a Scottish point of view when I say that the amendments that they propose have everything to commend them, and the arguments that they put forward are ones that I entirely endorse and support.

The key point underlying both these amendments was expressed by the noble Baroness, Lady Bowles of Berkhamsted, when she said that these matters should be consensual and the body taking the decision should represent all four nations. Whatever the structure of that body, and indeed whichever body we are talking about—the options are before us in these various amendments—it has to command the confidence of all four nations.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Lord Hope of Craighead and Lord Empey

Committee: 6th sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Monday 12th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Empey (UUP)]

My Lords, before we whip ourselves into a lather of outrage at the prospect of doing something without the consent of the devolved Administrations, perhaps I may remind the House that we have a short memory. The devolution settlement in Northern Ireland represented by the 1998 Act was butchered—a term I used some weeks ago—by this Parliament without a by your leave, without the consent of the Northern Ireland Assembly and without the consent of the parties that negotiated the agreement. That was done in the Northern Ireland (St Andrews Agreement) Act 2006, where dramatic changes were made to the methods we had negotiated with the noble Lord, Lord Trimble, and others over many years. So this Parliament can do what it likes, when it likes. That is the nature of having a devolved institution versus a sovereign Parliament. There is a hierarchy.

The Good Friday agreement, for which the noble Lord, Lord Judd—who is not in his place—and others indicated strong support, which I welcome, was dramatically changed without a by your leave. It was done as a result of a back-stairs deal and this Parliament implemented it. There was no requirement for the Northern Ireland Assembly to agree—it was just done. So let us look back at the actions that have already been taken.

In these challenging circumstances, and from what was said by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead, among others, in his forensic examination of the amendments that he introduced, I understand that there is genuine reason to be concerned. But we have to keep this in proportion. When powers are repatriated to the United Kingdom, the European Union deals with the member state—that is the way in which it works—so the only place it can come to is the member state. The question then is: what happens when it gets there? That is of significant concern to Members. But I am not as concerned as some because I believe that it is perfectly possible to arrive at an appropriate accommodation.

The word “balance” has been used, and that is an important point. But let us look at legislative consent. I have to say to noble Lords that we have got to be extremely careful about what we are doing here. If there is a Northern Ireland Assembly, do we know what legislative consent means? It means that Sinn Fein will decide whether there is legislative consent. If we build that into an Act of this Parliament dealing with such an important matter as the consequences of the EU decision, we will be handing a veto to that single party. Under our devolution settlement, it will be about Sinn Fein’s consent as a party. Whether it has a majority or a minority in the Assembly is irrelevant; it has sufficient power to block consent. What are we doing in considering that?

[Lord Hope of Craighead]

I am most grateful to the noble Lord. In Clause 7(7), which deals with Northern Ireland, there is no mention of the need for consent at all. It states simply that the power to amend or repeal the Northern Ireland Act by statutory instrument is excluded. I can see the sense in that. Does the noble Lord agree that that is a sensible way of dealing with the matter, and that perhaps the same provision should be made for Scotland and Wales?

[Lord Empey]

I think that we have to be careful because this is complicated. It is obvious that the devolution settlements are not uniform; they are at different levels. My concern with the whole point of having consent is that, while it is obviously highly desirable to have it, although we are talking about the institutions, in practice we are talking about the people who at any point in time are controlling those institutions. In our particular case, there is a veto. I take the point made by the noble and learned Lord, but in the Scottish case a similar situation arises because there is a political party which has a particular objective in mind. It is not simply about the institutions but about those who are controlling them at a point in time when these matters come forward. In fact the noble and learned Lord, Lord Morris, said in his passionate contribution—I know that he is a lifelong devolutionary —that devolution, once granted, cannot be taken away. That is a contradiction in terms, because by definition devolution is something that is given—and of course our experience is that what has been given can be taken away. That is the danger in all of this.

Obviously we are waiting to see what the Government’s proposals will be. I do not believe that what the Minister indicated at the start of this debate will be the only contribution they will be making on these clauses, because it is clear that other matters need to be dealt with in Clauses 8 and 9, and I am sure that we will hear more from the Government. But I would urge colleagues to be careful about what this may mean in practice—because it is not as straightforward as it seems.