House of Lords: Domestic Committees

Lord Hope of Craighead Excerpts

Monday 9th May 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hope of Craighead (CB)]

My Lords, I also thank the noble Baroness the Leader of the House for initiating this debate and congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Shephard of Northwold, and the other members of her group—including the noble Lord, Lord Turnbull, from these Benches, who unfortunately cannot be here this afternoon—on their helpful and constructive report. I congratulate the noble Baroness on the compelling way in which she presented the report and the reasons for the conclusions that were reached.

At first sight, this is perhaps not the most exciting topic for a debate, but keeping our systems for organising how this place is run effective and up to date is a matter of first importance. I am very glad we have been given this opportunity to discuss what the report recommends. I am sure that both the Leader and the noble Baroness, Lady Shephard, will be encouraged by the number of noble Lords who have remained in their places to listen to their speeches and, indeed, will be present for the rest of the debate.

I think one must have a basis of knowledge and experience to subject a report of this kind to constructive criticism. I am very conscious that I am a relative newcomer to the work of the domestic committees. It was not the practice for the Lords of Appeal in Ordinary to be asked to serve on them when I was serving here as a Law Lord. Then, for four years, on moving to the Supreme Court as its Deputy President, I was disqualified from taking any part in the work of the House and my interest in what was going on here diminished accordingly. My disqualification was lifted in July 2013, after my retirement from the court, and suddenly, on taking up the post of Convenor last October, I found myself a member ex officio of two of the committees concerned with the governance of the House—the House Committee and the Administration and Works Committee—as well as of the Procedure Committee and the Privileges and Conduct Committee, with whose work the report is not concerned. So I have that advantage. I follow the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, in expressing my admiration for the work of the committees of which I now find myself a member and all those who contribute to their discussions.

As I am not a member of the three other domestic committees—the Refreshment, Information and Works of Art Committees—I have no first-hand experience of their work; nor do I have any experience of their work at second hand as, unless I am very much mistaken, there are no arrangements for the work of these other committees to be subjected to regular scrutiny by the House Committee, as the governance structure in figure 1 on page 9 of the report suggests it ought to be. I may not have been paying attention. If that is the case, I apologise, but I simply cannot recall the kind of communication between these committees in either direction that one might have expected. During my time on the House Committee I have not had to consider anything about the works of art with which that committee is concerned.

I have no doubt that the officials on whom we depend so much for what goes on in this Building are well in touch with each other, and that the high quality of their work is not affected at all by any defects that may have been drawn attention to in the noble Baroness’s report. But my experience suggests that there is a lack of clarity about how the committees should work with each other and the roles of the Members who serve on them. Given my experience, I do not require much persuasion that there is a real problem here that demands our attention.

Another feature that perhaps should be stressed is the relationship with the House of Commons. I have become aware through my membership of the House Committee of what is going on in the House of Commons. About two-thirds of our services are shared and, as the report points out, there is a growing need for a sense of cohesion and shared purpose between the two Houses. Those who serve on the House Committee at least are very much aware of this and of the work that is being done to achieve this where it is in our interests to do so. The main driver for this, no doubt, is the need to achieve efficiency savings right across the board in public expenditure, but working together is not just about saving money; the increased efficiency that it brings is a virtue in itself.

The recently introduced governance structure in the House of Commons, which is set out in figure 2 on page 12 of the report, has been designed in the interests of efficiency. In comparison with what the other place now has, our governance structure does look rather out of date. I agree with the report that greater clarity is needed, especially about the role of the senior committee. I do not think we should copy precisely what goes on in the other place but I agree with the report that greater similarity between the overall structures of our respective domestic committee systems is desirable. That should make the process of decision-making in the areas of shared and joint services simpler and easier to achieve. I also welcome the recommendation that the work of the senior committee should be supported by two non-executive members with suitable boardroom experience. In an increasingly complex world, we need to keep pace with the outside world in how the managerial functions of such a body are and should be conducted.

Lastly I welcome, too, the emphasis on the need for behavioural changes on the round-table approach to our meetings. Rather like the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, I do not think I am giving away a secret when I say that at the last meeting of the House Committee, which was chaired by the Lord Speaker, we were shown how those could work effectively. We were invited to the River Room and served with biscuits and tea, as we sat around a table with a white tablecloth to discuss the business of the committee. It was a welcome change and, perhaps, an example of what can be achieved to make our discussions a little more friendly and constructive.

In principle, therefore, I agree that the structure recommended in this report should be implemented. I hope this can be done without delay but I should like to mention a number of points of detail. They are concerned with what the Leader of the House referred to as the next phase. For that reason, they are matters not fully set out in the report but I suggest that we need to give careful attention to what lies ahead and I offer these thoughts with that in mind.

First, I have some questions about structure and timing. Reference is made in paragraphs 64 to 69 of the report to the need for clarity in delegation and the setting of targets. I of course welcome the emphasis on both. The first task of the senior committee is to be for it to define its terms of reference and report them to the House for ratification. Only after that has happened, it seems, can the terms of reference of the supporting committees be approved and the appropriate delegations take place. This sounds very sensible but how is it to work in practice? Which committee is to be set up first? I assume it will be the senior committee, as the services committees cannot start work until their terms of reference have been worked out for them—and that cannot happen until the senior committee’s terms of reference have been ratified.

If I am right about this, however, the phasing of the transfer of responsibility from the old committees to the new will require careful planning. The existing committees will have to remain in being until the committees to which they will transfer their responsibilities have been established. We must remember that we are talking here about real people and the contribution our Members, from all groups, make to the running of the House. The work of the officials will no doubt go on as normal but for the Members it is different, as the scrutiny committees on which they serve are created or cease to exist. In their interests I ask: what is the timing to look like? Can each of the committees be given a business plan for this, so that the whole process is completely understood and properly co-ordinated?

Then there are the criteria for appointments, to which paragraph 88 of the report refers. I see merit in the proposal that there should be more stringent criteria for nomination and that the chairs of the two supporting committees should have an input into that process but here, too, there are questions about timing. When and how are the chairs of these committees to be appointed? As they are to be members of the senior committee as well, it would seem that they need to be identified and appointed at the outset, when that committee is being set up. But for the recommended process to make sense it would seem that their appointments should precede the nomination of the other members of their respective committees. Is that what is intended?

It would seem to follow, too, that they would need to be appointed before the terms of reference of their respective committees have been worked out and that they should be able to contribute to that process. That would seem a sensible way of dealing with the matter but, again, is this what is intended?

Lastly, I suggest that we need a little more clarity as to who is to take on the responsibility of presenting the reports to the House from the domestic committees when the post of Chairman of Committees—whose present holder does such an excellent job under our current arrangements—is brought to an end, as recommended in paragraph 70. In that paragraph, it is said that the holder of the new post—let us call him the senior deputy speaker—should concentrate on areas of procedure and conduct. But if that is to be so, who will be answerable to the House for the work of the other committees—the senior committee and the services committees? I suppose the chairs of the services committees should fulfil that role in their individual cases, but at least one of these chairs is likely to come from the party groups. What about the senior committee, which most of all needs someone to speak in the House on its behalf?

At first sight, the choice would seem to lie between the senior deputy speaker and the Lord Speaker, but of course under our current arrangements the Lord Speaker does not have a speaking role. It was otherwise when we had a Lord Chancellor—I remember very well debates being conducted with great skill from the Woolsack—but those days are past and it may very well be a step too far for the Lord Speaker to assume the responsibility of speaking on behalf of these committees. Does this then mean that the responsibility for answering for the work of the committees should be given to the senior deputy speaker? If it is, following the comment of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, would that affect the salary that that post might be expected to attract?

I throw these points out for further thought, well understanding that the Leader is not in a position to provide answers to them. It suggests, however, that a great deal of thought is still needed, and discussions will no doubt take place to find proper answers. I am sorry to have detained your Lordships for so long with these points. This afternoon we are really looking at the recommendations in principle, and I offer from these Benches my support for what the report has recommended to us.