Non-Contentious Probate (Fees) Order 2018

Debate between Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts and Lord Pannick

Tuesday 18th December 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Pannick]

I am grateful to the noble Baroness for her observation. My answer to the noble Baroness is that, yes, the Lord Chancellor is obliged to have regard to,

“the competitiveness of the legal services market”,


but I understand that to apply only in a context where there is a competitive market. Of course, in many contexts there is. But, like the noble Baroness, I do not understand there to be a competitive market for probate, and in my judgment that provision does not require the Lord Chancellor to have regard to a factor which is simply not relevant to the topic we are discussing.

[Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts (Con)]

My Lords, I am not a lawyer. I have never applied for probate, I know nothing about the operation of the probate service and I come at this as a babe in the legal wood. But having read the paperwork that was put down and heard this afternoon’s discussion, I see four things. I see us helping the poorest in our society by eliminating any charge for estates between £5,000 and £50,000. I see us ensuring that the maximum charge is never more than 0.5%, and sometimes less than that. I see a maximum of £6,000 on even the largest estate, and I see this providing a degree of cross-subsidy to ensure that we have an efficient courts and tribunals system—a point that the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, has just made. So I say to my noble friend Lady Browning, with the very greatest respect, that those seem to be perfectly good Conservative principles, and I therefore support what the Government are trying to achieve here.

If we chase down the vires point which the noble Lord, Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames, focused on, surely any amount of return above cost is not allowable in his argument. We are about to have a reduction in the cost, as I read the papers, of £9.30—the estimated reduction in the average unit cost of applying for probate—as a result of the new system. I am not clear—perhaps the noble Lord can enlighten me when he concludes—about whether his proposal is now to reduce the fees, because of course they will be above the cost of providing the service.

I have been involved in the charity and voluntary sectors. I have worked on their behalf, written reports to the Government, supported them and fought their corner in third-party campaigning and other areas. The reports have been well received by the sector, and sufficiently well received that the Government immediately banned any idea of bringing them in—but never mind about that. The point is that they have made a great case about the impact on charities and charitable donations of the imposition of these particular charges. I must say that, however I work the maths and however I try to work through the ideas, I do not see the logic of the more extreme and indeed scaremongering issues that have been raised by many parts of the sector.

It must surely be perverse that under the present system we are charging the same fee to someone who has a £5,001 estate as to someone who has a £20 million estate. That must be perverse and the present system must not be right. This must be a way of improving it.

Privileges and Conduct

Debate between Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts and Lord Pannick

Thursday 15th November 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Pannick]

I thank the Senior Deputy Speaker. It is one of my remaining ambitions in life to get into his first 11 of lawyers.

I thank all those who have contributed to this important debate. It is striking that no one who has done so has disputed that in all other regulatory, disciplinary or employment areas in this country—in the City as well—if you are accused of a serious disciplinary offence that turns on credibility and have your reputation destroyed, you are entitled to cross-examine, or have cross-examination conducted of, the person who accuses you. It is not a question of “special pleading”—the noble Lord, Lord Warner, used that phrase—for Members of this House; I am asking for the protection accorded to everyone outside this House who faces accusations of similar conduct. It is simply unacceptable for us to apply lower standards.

Perhaps I may briefly respond to the main arguments that I understand to have been advanced. The first is that these are our rules; we are stuck with them. I have to tell noble Lords that if I were appearing in a judicial review for any public body accused of adopting an unfair procedure and I were to say to the court, “Well, those are the rules”, the judge would not for a moment tolerate such an argument. The court would say, “This is not fair”, and it would set aside the decision. In any event, the code, which is the governing instrument, at paragraph 21 requires compliance with,

“the principles of natural justice and fairness”.

There is nothing in the rules which prevents the commissioner in the exercise of her discretion allowing cross-examination in an appropriate case.

[Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts]

The noble Lord is talking about a judge applying the law made a by third party. The difference here is that we are talking about us applying rules that we have made ourselves. It is a distinctly different matter. A judge is applying the law of the land; we are applying rules that we have created ourselves.

[Lord Pannick]

We are the High Court of Parliament. One cannot go to court to challenge the fairness of this procedure. This House is obliged to ask whether what has been done in this case is fair. The argument seems to be, “Well, the current rules might be unfair. We don’t accept that they are, but in the future we’ll consider doing something about them”. This is no comfort to the noble Lord, Lord Lester, and it should be no comfort to your Lordships in considering this case. He is entitled to a fair procedure.

The point was then made by the noble and learned Lords, Lord Hope and Lord Mackay of Clashfern, that these are inquisitorial, and not adversarial, proceedings, but we cannot inquire into a matter of this sort and reach a fair conclusion without a process of cross-examination for all the reasons that the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, eloquently explained.

Social Action, Responsibility and Heroism Bill

Debate between Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts and Lord Pannick

Monday 15th December 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Pannick (CB)]

My Lords, we have had our fun on this Bill at Second Reading and in Committee. I, for my part, cannot remember a legislative proposal that has been the subject of more sustained ridicule and derision. We now come to the serious business. I have been studying and practising law for 40 years—not as long as many noble Lords, but a long time—and I cannot remember a more pointless, indeed fatuous, piece of legislation than Clause 2 of this Bill, with the possible exception of Clauses 3 and 4 of this Bill. As the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, has explained and as we have previously discussed—and as is not in dispute—Clause 2 will not change the law. Courts already have regard to whether the alleged negligence or breach of statutory duty occurred when the person was acting for the benefit of society or any of its members. I referred to the leading cases at Second Reading. The Minister has at no stage suggested that there are any cases in which courts have ignored such obviously relevant factors.

What then is the point of Clause 2? As the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, has already explained, the Lord Chancellor, Mr Grayling, has been very clear. He wants Parliament to send a message. But if the object of the legislation is to encourage people to volunteer and to encourage heroism without people being concerned about possible litigation—the objective referred to a few moments ago by the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts—Mr Grayling should buy a half-page advertisement in the Sun or the Daily Mail or, if he wants to reach younger citizens, open a Facebook page or set up a Twitter account, and simply tell people the obvious truth, that the law is already on their side. That would be a much cheaper and more effective way in which to communicate a message than to take this sad Bill through all its stages in Parliament.

It is simply ridiculous for the Government to suggest that people who are currently inhibited from volunteering by a fear of litigation are somehow going to step forward when they hear—if they do—that we have approved Clause 2 of the Bill. Mr Grayling cannot seriously think that around the dinner table tonight, or in the Dog and Duck public house, or anywhere, people will say to themselves, “I see that Clause 2 has passed its latest stages in the House of Lords. I look forward to its speedy enactment next year because then I will be much more willing to volunteer and act like a hero, my concerns about litigation having been removed”.

[Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts]

I am very grateful to the noble Lord for giving way. It is not just people in the saloon bar of the Dog and Duck who are influenced by this; it is also the professional advisers. In the example that we discussed in Committee, the problem was that many solicitors offering advice to people actually provide advice that might be changed by this legislation.

[Lord Pannick]

With great respect, there is even less justification if we are going to ask the question about professional advice from solicitors, because we are surely entitled to assume that solicitors are capable of understanding basic law. This is not complicated law: it is trite, obvious law that already protects those who volunteer and act as heroes.

It has been said at previous stages of the Bill that we often legislate in the hope of changing people’s behaviour. Reference has been made, for example, to the Race Relations Act. But what is different and what is exceptional about Clause 2 is that it does not purport to change the law one jot or iota. All that it will do is enable Mr Grayling to say that he is in favour of social action; and when we come to Clause 4, he will be able to say that he is in favour of heroism, as if the rest of us were not. I object to legislation being used by the Government to send what is no more than a political message.

In paragraph 125 of its excellent report, published last week, on the office of Lord Chancellor, your Lordships’ Constitution Committee stated that the Lord Chancellor should have,

“a clear understanding of his or her duties in relation to the rule of law and a willingness to speak up for that principle in dealings with ministerial colleagues, including the Prime Minister”.

The Lord Chancellor ought to understand that it is part—an important part—of the rule of law that the statute book has a role and a purpose: it is a purpose distinct from a party conference speech or a party election broadcast. Clause 2 simply debases the parliamentary currency and it therefore undermines the rule of law. If the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, decides to test the opinion of the House on Clause 2, he will certainly have my support.

Social Action, Responsibility and Heroism Bill

Debate between Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts and Lord Pannick

Tuesday 18th November 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Pannick]

My Lords, I have added my name to that of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, in opposing Clause 2 standing part of this Bill, and I agree with everything that he has said. At Second Reading the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, and the noble Baroness, Lady Browning, each quoted Shakespeare in their competing assessments of the value of Clause 2, and indeed of the whole of this Bill. At that stage I was unable to contribute at such a high literary level—I could offer only a quotation from Basil Fawlty.

Since then, I have received a valuable e-mail from Paul Mitchard QC of the Faculty of Law at the Chinese University of Hong Kong. He assures me, and I assure the Committee, that the Official Report on this Bill is being carefully studied in the special administrative region of the People’s Republic of China. Mr Mitchard has drawn my attention to a valuable quotation from the works of Shakespeare which is relevant to whether Clause 2 should stand part of this Bill. On being complimented on making a perceptive comment, Beatrice responds by emphasising the obvious nature of what she had said:

“I have a good eye, uncle; I can see a church by daylight”.

Most appropriately for our purposes, the quotation comes, of course, from “Much Ado About Nothing”. Given that a few moments ago the Minister praised the concise nature of this Bill, perhaps “little ado about nothing” is more appropriate.

Judges can already see a church by daylight. They already take account of beneficial action—responsibility, heroism—when they decide on potential liability for negligence or breach of statutory duty. Noble Lords discussed the case law relevant to this matter at Second Reading; I will not repeat it. The Lord Chancellor’s defence of Clause 2—as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, has said—is not that Clause 2 will change the law. The Government have identified no cases which would have been decided differently had Clause 2 been in force. The point made by the Lord Chancellor—the point made by the Government—in support of Clause 2 is that people do not understand the existing law and therefore we, Parliament, should send a message to people who are worried that conduct beneficial to society may result in legal liability, even though those worries are entirely baseless. I do not know whether the Lord Chancellor is on Facebook or Twitter but they would be far more effective methods of communicating a message—if it is the intention of the Government to do so—than the legislative time being taken up by the Bill.

I hope that it is appropriate to say that I cannot put out of my mind—although I hope to do so by ventilating it in this Committee—an image of the Lord Chancellor and the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, as the parliamentary equivalent of the Bee Gees singing their hit, “I’ve Gotta Get a Message to You”. The problem is that there is really no point sending a message unless there is something of value to communicate and unless one has reason to think that it is going to be received. There is simply no evidence whatever to suggest that those thinking of performing beneficial acts or heroism are deterred by a misunderstanding of the protection that the law already offers them.

The Joint Committee on Human Rights, in its report published last week, helpfully summarised the position in relation to this crucial point. I draw the Committee’s attention to paragraph 2.23. It refers to the Explanatory Notes to the Bill, which,

“say that there is ‘some evidence’ that people are deterred from participating in socially useful activities due to worries about risk … or liability”.

The Explanatory Notes, as the Joint Committee points out, cite only an example of a survey conducted in 2006-07. The committee asked the Government if there were any other evidence upon which the Bill is based in relation to the suggested need for a message to be sent. This was the report’s conclusion at paragraph 2.26, which stated:

“We have considered carefully the strength of the evidence base showing that the specific risk of legal liability, as opposed to risk generally, is a reason why people do not volunteer, and we have found it weak. The evidence relied on by the Government as demonstrating a public perception that volunteering carried too great a risk of legal liability is almost entirely anecdotal, and we do not consider such evidence to be a sound basis for legislating”.

I respectfully agree. If the Government are bringing forward Clause 2 on the basis that there is a need to send a message, they need to present to this House some evidence to support that assertion. Anecdotal accounts are simply not good enough. I therefore share the view of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, that Clause 2 serves no useful purpose; it should not stand part of the Bill.

[Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts]

I have been listening carefully to the two speeches. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, referred to the interplay between this piece of legislation and the Compensation Act 2006. I had to note that after he said that he thought that the Compensation Act was sending a message, he added that the message may or may not have been received, which is part of the issue that we are tackling today—that the message has not been received. I listened carefully to the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, and have read with equal care his article about this piece of legislation in last Thursday’s Times, which was headed “UK negligence law is already fit for heroes” and saying that we do not need this Bill. Its tone can only be described as uncompromising throughout.

Regrettably I was abroad on business during the week beginning 3 November and therefore was unable to participate in the Second Reading debate. The proposal of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, and the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, that Clause 2, headed “Social action”, should not stand part of the Bill clearly rips the heart out of a large part of this measure and deserves a response. With respect to the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, I do not think that people’s fears are baseless.

Before I go any further, I need to declare an interest. First, I am not a lawyer. Hearing the interchanges I sometimes feel that I have joined a party to which I have not been properly invited. Secondly and more importantly, in late 2010 I was asked by the Government to chair a task force to look at those factors affecting the growth of the charitable and voluntary sector, especially among smaller charities and voluntary groups.

I was asked to look at three specific questions. What stopped people giving their time to volunteering, for example? What deterred them from giving their money? What stopped smaller charities and voluntary groups from growing in general terms? The task force’s report, entitled Unshackling Good Neighbours, was published in May 2011 and remains available for aficionados on the Cabinet Office website.

Only the first of those three tasks is relevant to our deliberations today. With the greatest respect to the noble Lord and noble and learned Lord, with the experience of that task force and the evidence that we received. I think that they have seen this issue too exclusively, through an over-narrow legal prism. I agree with their view that this problem of volunteer concern will not be solved by change to the law alone. There is no silver bullet and I would not claim that this Bill is one. The problem can be addressed by multiple bullets and this Bill provides one of them.

The noble Lord, Lord Pannick, is aware of the importance that I attach to the rule of law. I have had the pleasure of participating with him in debates on the Motion of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, about the importance of the rule of law abroad and Britain’s reputation. I have also had the pleasure of speaking with the noble Lord on the Justice and Security Bill. To maintain the rule of law, the law must command general respect. It must not become disconnected from the regulars of the saloon bar in the Dog and Duck. I fear that in this area it is becoming so disconnected. Some of the disconnection is direct and some is indirect, in that the law is being considered to support approaches that our fellow citizens think are at best foolish and at worst downright unhelpful.

Let me give an example of what is happening, which was provided to the task force. A young woman, an undergraduate at Oxford University, saw an advertisement in the paper asking for individuals to act as room curators at one of the city’s museums. Like many or perhaps most undergraduates she was short of money and anxious to earn some additional sums. The job required her to sit in the corner of a gallery, watching that visitors going by did not interfere or tamper with the exhibits, or steal them. When she applied for the job she was immediately told that it required her to have a Criminal Records Bureau check. She was not keen on what she found a disproportionately untrusting attitude.

At this point she was put in touch with the task force. I knew that CRB regulations check that a job applicant is suitable for “frequent and intensive” contact with children or vulnerable adults and could not see how this undergraduate sitting in the corner of a room in a museum would call that principle into question. So I asked her to write to the university authorities and ask them for the basis of their CRB requirement. The answer was that the museum authorities had consulted their solicitors and had been told that to cover all the bases, including generally, a failure to have CRB checks would increase the likelihood of the trustees being found liable if there were problems in any of the operations of the museum. In the event, the young woman did not take the job because she refused to have the CRB check and the museum would not amend its policy.

That example could be replicated thousands of times up and down the country. I could—but will not —bore the House with examples: the Punch and Judy show on Hastings pier; the Women’s Institute putting flowers on a Welsh railway station; or a retired doctor seeking to read a few hours a month to Alzheimer’s patients in Northumberland. Each case results in people being reluctant to get involved.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Pannick]

Perhaps I might point out to the noble Lord that the Minister assured the Committee in relation to the first group of amendments that the Bill would have no effect whatever on vicarious liability. Therefore, the museum’s approach—which does not sound very sensible—would not be affected in any way by the Bill.

[Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts]

I am not going to try to argue a fine legal point with the noble Lord but the fact of the matter is that the museum was advised that unless there were full and clear CRB checks for all individuals, it would be liable. This piece of legislation gives us an opportunity because in a case such as this, the museum,

“was acting for the benefit of society or any of its members”.

I have to say to the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, that I was disappointed with his remarks at Second Reading when he said:

“The irony is, of course, that banging on about a compensation culture is itself likely to create the very apprehension that the Bill purports to allay”.—[Official Report, 4/11/14; col. 1552.]

Regrettably, the apprehension is already very widespread. If he wishes to find out what is causing that apprehension, I invite him and other noble Lords to read the briefing sent by the Association of Personal Injury Lawyers, which describes the impact of the Bill as follows. It says that,

“those who ‘employ’ volunteers may be less rigorous in their risk assessments, thereby leaving those in their care more vulnerable to harm. An example is the chairman of a local football club where volunteers coach children. As a result of this Bill, the chairman may be tempted to cut corners in vetting the suitability of his volunteers”.

To suggest that those of us who support the Bill are somehow careless about our children’s future is unfair, unworthy and, indeed, outrageous.

I referred earlier to my support for the rule of law but I have an equally deep affection for the right of free association. It is on this right that our civil society is built. Many argue that in this screen-based age, our society is becoming more atomised and more self-centred. Whether or not this is true, I believe strongly that a vibrant civil society improves social well-being and social cohesion. All possible steps should be taken to avoid people being discouraged from getting involved.

I expect that the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, will argue that if a case with the characteristics I have described were to come to court, it would be thrown out. That is as may be. I am certainly not going to try to swap legal precedents with them as that would be a battle I would surely lose. But I ask the Committee to consider that for the noble Lord and the noble and learned Lord, a day in court is another day at the office, but for the defendant it is an entirely strange world —working to unfamiliar and not always understandable procedures, often taking quite a long time to come to court and incurring considerable cost and expense. It is a highly stressful experience for the layman or laywoman as well as for their families and work colleagues. Of course, if the defendant is a trustee of a charity which is not a CIO, he or she has unlimited liability.

In the background is the advice we were given at the time of the task force by an experienced litigation solicitor who explained that he would do everything he could to prevent his clerk going to court in what he called “volunteer liability” type cases because, as he put it, they are always complex and judgmental. Once you appear before a judge, and even more so before a judge and jury, the potential for unpleasant surprises increases significantly.

Earlier in the Bill, I said this was one of a series of bullets that needed to be fired to tackle this problem. So that the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, and the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, do not think that I am trying to attack the lawyers, I will give two brief examples of other bullets that need to be fired. One is the availability of insurance. The task force found that improving the clarity and comparability of insurance cover would have a major impact on encouraging volunteers. As the task force recommended, the Government have established a working party that includes representatives of the insurance industry and the voluntary sector to tackle this and other insurance problems. For the second bullet, I follow what the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, said earlier, when he wrote in his Times article, “Why not just issue a press release or pay for a newspaper advertisement?”. This raises the issue of myths. My task force was appalled at what we found, and we listed the 20 most extraordinary in our report. They include people worried that they could not put a plaster on a child’s cut; that goggles could not be worn in a swimming lesson; that they could not take photographs of their children at a school play, and that they could not offer meeting space in an office to a local community group. I hope that in parallel with implementing this Bill the Government will take active steps to ensure that where myths occur, they are duly busted.

To conclude, valuable steps have already been taken as regards the law in this respect. The Compensation Act was the subject of our debate this afternoon. The restrictions on contingent-fee legal work and after-the-event insurance are most welcome. We need, however, to continue to explore ways to encourage, or at least not discourage, our fellow citizens to get involved in civil society, and this Bill is important in that regard. I hope that the noble Lord will not divide the House tonight on the proposal that Clause 2 should stand part of the Bill and that my noble friend on the Front Bench will be robust in rejecting the Motion.

Care Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts and Lord Pannick

Monday 22nd July 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts]

This is my first intervention on this Bill. It is not an area of government policy in which I have historically taken a lot of interest so I am some way outside my comfort zone. However, when I saw that my noble friend Lady Byford had put down two amendments about financial records and appropriate billing, both areas I have taken an interest in, I felt I should support her and put my name to them.

I fear that if I could glance over at the speaking note prepared for the Front Bench on Amendment 92ZFA, I would see the words, “Resist on the grounds that this is unnecessary and the clause already provides for it”. That may be so, but if you read the Explanatory Note to Clause 41 carefully, at paragraph 230, I am not sure that it actually places a duty on the local authority to follow up complaints where they are made by external parties, such as one holding a power of attorney, as my noble friend mentioned in her opening remarks. If would be helpful if my noble friend on the Front Bench could give some reassurance on this point and also for the record confirm, as I am sure must be the case, that people holding powers of attorney are “representatives” as defined in this clause.

The new clause inserted into the Bill by Amendment 92ZFB is a much more significant development. If the Minister’s officials were to call for and examine a range of the invoices sent to individual residents or patients by different companies for the provision of care services, she would see a considerable variation in the quality and, above all, the clarity of how the charges are laid out and calculated. To be fair to the companies, it is not easy to do because it becomes quite complex, quite quickly. For example, local authority rebate periods do not always coincide neatly with the charging periods of the individual care homes. Then there are the charges for extras over and above normal care. In the vast majority of cases these are entirely legitimate but, if you look at the records and the way they are laid out, all too often they are not clearly itemised and often a one-line entry, “Additional Charges” on an invoice received perhaps a month later makes it very hard to verify the accuracy or otherwise of the charge.

We need to keep at the forefront of our mind the fact that these invoices are addressed to elderly people who perhaps are more easily confused or may be browbeaten. In particular, if they have no relatives or representatives to help them, they may be over-ready to accept the invoices at face value and pay them. I particularly support my noble friend’s amendment because it seems to address three important objectives. First, it encourages the emergence of best practice among care homes and the way they lay out their charges. Secondly, it helps individuals and their families understand what is being charged and whether it is accurate. Thirdly, and possibly most cynically, it reduces any temptation to pad invoices with additional items. I do not suppose for a moment that the precise wording of this amendment meets the standards required by parliamentary draftsmen. However, I hope when my noble friend comes to wind up she will consider it an idea worth following up.

[Lord Pannick]

My Lords, I add my support to Amendment 92AA to which the noble Lord, Lord Low of Dalston, spoke so powerfully a few minutes ago. I declare an interest—or, more accurately, a regret—in that I represented YL in the Appellate Committee of your Lordships’ House and failed to persuade a majority of that committee that those who operate care homes under a contract with a local authority are performing a public function for the purposes of the Human Rights Act and therefore are obliged to comply with human rights principles. The complexity of the legal issues was such that the much lamented Lord Bingham of Cornhill and the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Hale of Richmond, both dissented from the views of the three judges in the majority.

As the noble Lord, Lord Low, has mentioned, Section 145 of the Health and Social Care Act 2008 addressed the issue by bringing some care home providers directly within the scope of the Human Rights Act, providing direct legal protection for residents of such homes. However, important gaps in the law remain. Duties under the Human Rights Act are not owed by the person who provides residential care to persons who pay for it themselves—that is, when the local authority is not paying—and the provider of care services, when that provider is not a local authority, has no duties under the Human Rights Act when providing care in a person’s own home.

I share the concerns of the noble Lord, Lord Low, that, in the light of the changes to be introduced by this Bill, it is important that the law should clearly address liability under the Human Rights Act. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Low, who made a very powerful case, that the vulnerability of the person receiving care, and the risk of abuse, mean that the law should now impose duties on the provider under the Human Rights Act in all these circumstances to encourage the maintenance of high standards and provide a direct remedy for the victim in appropriate cases. It is really no answer for the Government to say, as they have previously indicated, that it is undesirable in principle to specify the scope of the Human Rights Act in relation to public functions. The YL judgment already does that in a deeply unsatisfactory and narrow manner.

I accept, of course, that improved regulation and proper training will play an important part in protecting the interests of those receiving care. However, I ask the Minister to accept that the principles and the remedies under the Human Rights Act will add a significant and necessary further dimension to the obligations of those providing care and to the rights of those receiving it. I hope we will receive a positive response from the Minister this evening to the amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Low, and the noble Baroness, Lady Greengross.

Justice and Security Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts and Lord Pannick

Wednesday 21st November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Pannick]

Before the noble Lord, Lord Hodgson, replies, it may be of assistance to the House if I seek to respond to a specific question put to me by the noble Lord, Lord Owen. I am very grateful for the general support around the House for the concept of judicial discretion in this area and that CMPs should be a last resort, if they are to exist at all.

The noble Lord, Lord Owen, asked me to address Amendments 48 and 49, to which the Minister referred. I am grateful to the Minister for the very careful way in which he went through the amendments. The noble Lord, Lord Owen, was concerned that Amendments 48 and 49 would introduce a duty to provide a summary or a gist of the material if the closed material proceeding is to be ordered. The answer is that disclosure of the summary or the gist would be required only if the Government wish to proceed with a CMP. If they do not wish to disclose the gist or the summary, which is a matter entirely for them, they do not have to do so under the amendment. There simply would be no closed material proceeding. I suggest that that is entirely appropriate if we are to have a fair balance of the interests in open justice and other competing interests. I am grateful to the House.

[Lord Hodgson of Astley Abbotts]

I am extremely grateful to my noble and learned friend for the courteous and extensive way in which he has replied to Amendment 31, on which this debate has hung. Perhaps I may make clear to my noble friend Lady Neville-Jones that this was not to end CMPs: it was merely to narrow the gateway to CMPs by requiring a PII process first. The noble Lord, Lord Pannick, has discussed a number of amendments that give effect to the recommendations of the Joint Select Committee. If I was going to be irreverent, I might say that I regard those as offering 80% of the loaf, as opposed to 100% of the loaf that I was seeking.

However, I have to recognise that the Joint Select Committee has spent a great deal of time on this, a great deal more time than I have. Speaking as it does for both Houses of Parliament, it speaks with great authority. I also practically recognise that 80% of a loaf is better than no loaf at all. I shall seek, with the leave of the House, to withdraw my amendment and then give my support to the noble Lord if he chooses to move his amendments to give effect to the Joint Select Committee’s proposals. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.