House of Lords Reform (No. 2) Bill
Debate between Lord Hill of Oareford and Lord Steel of Aikwood(10 years, 7 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Lord Hill of Oareford) (Con)
My Lords, I have it in command from Her Majesty the Queen to acquaint the House that Her Majesty, having been informed of the purport of the House of Lords Reform (No. 2) Bill, has consented to place her prerogative and interest, so far as they are affected by the Bill, at the disposal of Parliament for the purposes of the Bill.
Lord Steel of Aikwood (LD)
My Lords, before any of your Lordships leap up to accuse me of telling a lie in my first sentence, let me admit that this is the sixth time that I have introduced this Bill, in its various incarnations. The first time was on 20 July 2007. The Bill before us today is almost identical to the fifth Bill, which passed through all its stages in this House in the previous Session, under the title House of Lords (Cessation of Membership) Bill. We therefore hope for an untroubled passage again today. I will outline the minor changes made in the Commons in a moment.
Before I go into the substance of the Bill, I should like to place on record my thanks to four colleagues who have been instrumental in getting us to this stage. The first is to Mr Dan Byles, the MP for North Warwickshire, who, having won a place in Mr Speaker’s ballot for Private Members’ Bills, took this one up, and as I saw, piloted it through all its stages in the Commons, not only with great skill but with a patience I would have found it difficult to summon in the face of some very odd attempts at amendment. I note in passing that Dan Byles, like Rory Stewart in Cumbria, is one of the few Conservative MPs to be selected for their constituency by one of David Cameron’s splendid open primaries. Before he produced his Bill, his main claim to fame was that he had rowed across the Atlantic and trekked to the North Pole—not things that many Members can claim to have done.
My second thanks are to my noble friend Lord Norton of Louth, who, as a political scientist, was responsible for the first draft of the original Bill six years ago and has been a source of good advice and assistance ever since.
The Bill today lacks two important provisions from the original Bill: the end to hereditary Peer by-elections and the appointment of a statutory appointments commission. However, these will reappear in the next Session in the Bill tabled by our former Lord Speaker, the noble Baroness, Lady Hayman, who is very sorry not to be with us today because of a long-standing school speaking engagement. Today’s measure is a much more modest and slimmed-down version of the original. By the way, we should stop calling it the Steel Bill—its proper name is now the Norton-Steel- Byles Bill.
My third and fourth thanks are to the two Leaders of our House who, behind the scenes, have encouraged the adoption of these minor but necessary reforms. Both my noble friends Lord Strathclyde and Lord Hill of Oareford were not only generous in their advice and encouragement, but had to persuade various Cabinet colleagues of the need for the reforms, some of whom—not mentioning any names—were more difficult than others. The House should be deeply grateful to them.
The Bill consists of just three provisions. First, Clause 1 introduces the right to resign membership of the House. At the moment, a Peer is a Member of the House for life once appointed, notwithstanding the current availability of permanent leave of absence. That is not really retirement, as those who have taken it will discover next year when they still receive the Writ of Summons. For the first time, the law of the land will make it possible to end membership of the House. The Bill does not specify how that should be done; it simply gives the House the statutory authority to introduce a scheme for retirement, which will have to be prepared after the Bill becomes law. The Leader of the House will, no doubt, outline how that might be done. In the end, the House itself will have to approve a scheme, but I do not want us to get unduly distracted by discussing what that scheme might include.
Contrary to the findings of the working group under the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Wirral, the Government—supported, I understand, by the other party leaders—have ruled out any financial package on retirement. We may have to return to that if we are to secure serious reductions in our numbers and if we can prove that, in so doing, there would be a saving to the House budget and therefore the taxpayer. However, there is no permanent financial provision in the Bill, nor is there any suggested age cut-off. Most Members appear to agree that retired Peers should enjoy some of the facilities made available to the hereditary Peers who were removed under the 1999 Act, and that there might be some ceremony on departure, but those are all matters for another day.
I add in passing that one of the more—how can I put this politely?—exotic amendments proposed in the other place, by Mr Jacob Rees-Mogg, was to encourage Peers to retire by offering Barons a viscountcy. I am sure all noble Baronesses would agree we should not go there. Nor did Mr Rees-Mogg say what would be offered to those who are already Viscounts or, for that matter, Earls, Marquesses and Dukes. The mind boggles at his ingenuity, but none of it, I hope, will appear in the scheme.
The second provision in the Bill is to remove those Peers who fail to attend our proceedings for a whole Session; there were 72 in the previous Session, most of whom had leave of absence. One amendment made in the Commons enables the House to decide to ignore that new rule in special circumstances—for example, if a Peer is forcibly detained abroad. Clause 2 would at least bring down our total numbers and save a small amount of work by not continuing to send them papers.
The third provision enables the House to come into line with the House of Commons by expelling serious wrongdoers from Parliament. Convicted offenders should not be legislators and, from the date of this Bill’s passage, any Peer convicted and sentenced to one year or more in prison will be automatically expelled. The second amendment made in the Commons, to Clause 3(9), dealt with a point that was raised in our House, about those convicted in foreign courts. In those cases, expulsion would not be automatic but only on resolution of the House. Those, then, are the three purposes of the Bill.
Clause 4 spells out the consequences of resignation. For example, it is now stipulated that hereditary Peer by-elections will continue to be held. Mr Byles fended off an ungracious amendment to the effect that any hereditary Peer retiring should be deemed to be dead, so that their heir could stand in a by-election. Peers resigning will have the right to vote restored, as well as the right to stand for the Commons. I do not, however, share the anxiety expressed by some distinguished academics that this will lead to people being nominated as Peers to train as parliamentary candidates. It is somewhat fanciful to think that any party leader would nominate in such a way.
As I said at the outset, this is a limited reform Bill, adding to the record of incremental reforms to our House passed over the years. It does not, in any way, cut across a large variety of possible future reforms. As we have little time left in this Session, we cannot play ping-pong with the Bill, so we cannot have any amendments if it is to pass into law; today’s debate really has to be the last if we want these reforms. The Bill has been supported in all quarters of the House, especially through the long-standing group chaired by Sir Patrick Cormack MP, as he was then, now my noble friend. I look forward to a short but effective debate.
One of many from the opposition Benches who has been consistently supportive is the noble Lord, Lord Grenfell. I am sorry that he has decided not to wait any longer for statutory retirement, but to withdraw from the service of the House, to which he has given truly outstanding service over 30 years. We all look forward to his contribution in a moment.
As we have already passed the Bill under a different title in the previous Session, I am confident in proposing that it now be read a second time.
House of Lords: Size
Debate between Lord Hill of Oareford and Lord Steel of Aikwood(11 years ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Hill of Oareford
There are a number of points. First, we need to keep refreshing the House with new and young membership. I cannot remember which noble Lord it was who the other day pointed out that sadly all of us are growing older. That is why we need to have new Members coming in.
On the point about “packing the House”—that was the phrase the noble Lord used—I repudiate the charge. In his next point, he himself gave the lie to that by citing the fact that, for some extraordinary reason, the Government continue to suffer the occasional defeat on their legislation. In terms of the numbers, it is worth reminding the House that if one draws a comparison with the numbers for each of the four main groups in 2007 when Gordon Brown became Prime Minister, there are 25 more noble Lords now than there were then. We sometimes forget that, sadly, around 100 Members have died or taken leave of absence since the most recent general election.
Lord Steel of Aikwood (LD)
Is my noble friend aware that in the other House, Mr Dan Byles has taken up the Bill that we passed some months ago, which would provide the authority for the House to produce both retirement and expulsion? Would he keep a benevolent eye on the progress of that Bill in the other place, because it would provide an alternative exit strategy to that provided by the Grim Reaper?
Lord Hill of Oareford
I am keen that we should have alternatives to the Grim Reaper. I shall certainly keep an eye on progress. The whole House will share my gratitude to my noble friend Lord Steel for his persistence in taking forward these issues. Therefore I am pleased, as I know he will be, that, following representations from a number of people, not least himself, the Government’s position has moved to one of support for the Private Member’s Bill sponsored by Dan Byles. The whole House will welcome that. It will deliver the benefits to which my noble friend referred.
Commonwealth Heads of Government Meeting and Philippines
Debate between Lord Hill of Oareford and Lord Steel of Aikwood(11 years ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Hill of Oareford
My Lords, on the first point, no one is claiming—I am not—that making progress on human rights across the Commonwealth is a straightforward process. I think, however, that it helps that the charter that was signed in March has that commitment. The nature of our meetings is that we just have to keep pushing forward and trying to make progress. I do not claim that it is straightforward, but I claim that Britain being there—flying the flag for those values, arguing for them and shining a spotlight on the case of Sri Lanka where some of them are in question—was the right thing to do. As for the noble Lord’s specific question about Gibraltar, I do not have any information readily to hand, but if there is something that I can dig out for him, I will happily do so.
Lord Steel of Aikwood (LD)
On the Philippine tragedy, I agree with the Leader of the House and the Leader of the Opposition that the response of the British public to this disaster has been truly heartwarming and really generous. I also commend the Government and the Armed Forces for the efforts they are making to add to the relief of that terrible tragedy.
On the Commonwealth meeting, does my noble friend agree that it was not only unfortunate, but almost inevitable, that the coverage of this conference was dominated by conditions inside Sri Lanka itself? In order to avoid that happening again, would it not be a good idea if the heads of Government were to make it clear among themselves and to the Secretary-General that future heads of Government meetings will only be held in those Commonwealth countries that abide by what he called the core values of the Commonwealth charter? Does he agree that if that policy decision were made in advance, that in itself would help the promotion of human rights and democratic values throughout the Commonwealth?
Lord Hill of Oareford
I am grateful to my noble friend for his comments on the Philippines. On the Commonwealth conference, I would argue that going to Sri Lanka—and I obviously understand the points he makes about the anxieties that many people have about the situation there—will enable us and the rest of the world to have a greater focus on the problems there and help to address them. Therefore, while I understand the general point he made about wanting to work to ensure that all Commonwealth countries abide by basic human rights, in this case, having the CHOGM there has helped to take forward the case of the human rights of those people, particularly those living in the north of the island.
House of Lords: Reform
Debate between Lord Hill of Oareford and Lord Steel of Aikwood(11 years, 9 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Hill of Oareford
My Lords, I hope that I can always be a champion of this House, about which I feel extremely strongly. On the point about me being a pessimist, I like to think that I am an optimist. I am optimistic about this House, about its future and about the contribution that it makes to our national debate. I have, though, to be realistic about the consequence of the debate and the votes that took place. We know that the other place said at some point that it was in favour of an elected House; it did not then will the means for that to happen. Given where we got to last October, I am not a pessimist but I am realistic.
Lord Steel of Aikwood
Is the Leader of the House aware that following consultations with the Chief Whip, and as he rightly advised me, I postponed the Motion that I was to bring forward stopping further introductions until 28 February, which is the day before my Bill is next due to be blocked by the government Whips in the House of Commons. It would helpful if he, I and others could use the intervening time to try to persuade the powers that be at the other end that this is really a housekeeping measure purely affecting the Lords that we would like them to be nice enough to send back to us.
Lord Hill of Oareford
I understand that point. I have great respect for the noble Lord, Lord Steel, and am glad that I have already had the chance to discuss his proposals with him and others. I would be happy to do so again. He, I am sure, can use his powers of persuasion with colleagues in his own party, including the Deputy Prime Minister. I know that he will try and we will then see how we get on.
Business of the House
Debate between Lord Hill of Oareford and Lord Steel of Aikwood(11 years, 9 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Hill of Oareford
That Standing Order 40(5) (Arrangement of the order paper) be suspended from Thursday 7 February until the end of the session.
Lord Steel of Aikwood
My Lords, perhaps I may ask a couple of questions about this Motion, because it refers to starting next Thursday, 7 February. As noble Lords may be aware, I have tabled a Motion, which appears at the top of the Order Paper for debate that day, that,
“this House resolves that no introductions of new Peers shall take place until the recommendations in paragraphs 36, 47, 57, 63, and 67 of the First Report of the Leader’s Group on Members Leaving the House, chaired by Lord Hunt of Wirral (HL Paper 83, session 2010–12), have been implemented”.
We have just passed the second anniversary of the publication of this unanimous, all-party report. Nothing has been done about it and there is an increasing concern about overcrowding in this Chamber, which is why I have tabled my Motion. Can the Leader assure me that if we pass the Motion before us, my debate will not be gazumped and we shall have the chance to discuss it next Thursday morning?
Secondly, is the noble Lord aware that the Bill that passed through this House which would give effect to that report is in the Commons and has been taken up by our colleague, the Conservative MP Eleanor Laing? Last Friday she tried to get a formal Second Reading of that Bill so that it could come back here, but it was objected to by the Government Whips in the normal way. She is going to try again tomorrow, and of course, if the Government Whips do not object and she gets a formal reading, the Bill next Thursday would be unnecessary.
Lord Forsyth of Drumlean
My Lords, further to the point made by my noble friend, I understand that the Chief Secretary to the Treasury has suggested that this House should find economies of at least 2% in its budget. That seems to be inconsistent with proposals to add to the burdens on the House by appointing more Peers. This is not the moment to debate the issue, but would it not be appropriate for the Procedure Committee of this House to look at how the rate at which introductions are made is consistent with the resources available to us and the demands being placed on us by the Treasury to reduce the burden on the taxpayer, with which I very much agree?