Iran and Israel

Debate between Lord Harris of Haringey and Lord True

Monday 15th April 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I agree with much that the noble Lord said. Indeed, he is right to say that since January 2022 we have identified at least 15 threats towards the lives of UK-based individuals. We are stepping up our response to Iranian regime activities. Last December, my noble friend Lord Cameron summoned Iran’s most senior diplomat to the Foreign Office in relation to reports of Iranian plots to kill two Iran International employees. We will not tolerate these kinds of threats. The Foreign Secretary reiterated to the Iranian Foreign Minister that these threats are unacceptable and must stop.

So far as drones and Russia and Ukraine are concerned, we have sanctioned 18 Iranian individuals and three entities for their involvement in the manufacture and transfer of drones used in Ukraine, as referred to briefly by the noble Lord, Lord Newby, adding to our existing sanctions on the Iranian drone programme. I referred to the illegality of assisting with these threats to our national security. At the Wassenaar Arrangement meeting in October last year, we called out Iran and Russia’s unacceptable collaboration in proliferating weapons, and as recently as last December we held Iran and Russia to account at the Security Council for this unacceptable collaboration, sharing evidence of the drones that Iran has provided to Russia to other Security Council members, and in meetings on Resolution 2231. We will continue to expose this rather desperate and, frankly, despicable alliance and to press this issue at the United Nations and elsewhere.

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

My Lords, I refer to my interests in the register. I am grateful to the Lord Privy Seal for the comments that he has made. He has praised the Royal Air Force and the Royal Navy and, no doubt, he will get round to mentioning the Army in a moment. Is he not aware of the widespread feeling of disappointment that there was in our armed services about the failure to increase the defence budget in the recent financial statement? In the context of widening international tensions, not just in the Middle East but in Europe itself, and China’s threats against Taiwan, is he really satisfied that we are doing enough to prepare for some of the threats that might happen in terms of international relations? A specific point has been made about drones. Three years ago, I looked at the capacity of this country to respond to drone incursions. There was some good work being done, but it was still fairly narrow. What has been done in the intervening three years? Would we as a nation be able to deal with 300 incoming drones?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I am slightly saddened by the normally delightful noble Lord’s slightly jaundiced question. I referred to the Royal Navy and the Royal Air Force because I was asked about them, first by the noble Lord, Lord West of Spithead, and then by the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Stirrup. Of course, this Government support all the armed services. What the noble Lord left out of account is that in the spending review 2020, the MoD received an uplift of £24 billion in cash terms over four years, which was the biggest defence investment since the end of the Cold War. In 2023, we confirmed an additional £5 billion to the Ministry of Defence over two years and further funding has been cited.

We also expect, if you take into account the use of reserve funds, a further increase in spending on defence in 2024-25 over 2023-24. Some of the comparisons here are not actually comparing like for like. This Government remain committed to the long-term objective of spending at least 2.5% of GDP on defence, and the figure actually spent has been well over 2% in recent years.

G20 Summit

Debate between Lord Harris of Haringey and Lord True

Tuesday 12th September 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I am very grateful to my noble friend, whose expertise and dedication to these issues we all recognise. I fear that it is a few years, perhaps decades, since I had a hand in the drafting of prime ministerial Statements, so I cannot comment on the selection of material, but I can certainly say that the Government and the Prime Minister, all of us, do support and welcome this. It is something that was negotiated with the positive support and promotion—with other nations—of the United Kingdom.

It is absolutely vital that we make progress with relations and support for Africa. The UK is one of the largest supporters of the World Food Programme. We provided over £330 million of funding in 2022, including to Africa. Trade should also be a force for good. In Africa it is a remarkable and welcome thing that 98% of goods imported to the UK from Africa will enter tariff-free. These are things we must continue. We have £3.4 billion of green investments in Kenya, for example. I can certainly undertake to the noble Lord that the Government are very much seized of the importance of that great continent—the continent of the future.

As far as Russia is concerned, I did allude to the difficulties of agreeing. For 20 nations to agree words is often a diplomatic task, but it is fundamental—a point that I made in my initial response—that all G20 members, including actually Russia, committed in the declaration to a

“comprehensive, just, and durable peace in Ukraine that will uphold all the Purposes and Principles of the UN Charter”.

That is something that President Zelensky asked for last year at the Bali summit, and something that we will advance. If you think about it, Lavrov was there—Russia was at the G20 and under the terms of the declaration Russia has told the leaders of the biggest global economies that it will uphold all the principles of the UN Charter and refrain from the use of force for territorial acquisition. Unless Putin withdraws his troops, he will have lied to the world—perhaps not for the first time.

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

My Lords, we are all grateful to the Leader of the House for repeating the Statement. In the Statement, the Prime Minister said that

“we are leading action to tackle climate change”.

Could the Leader tell us then why, it seems, the UK was not invited to the initiative taken by the UN Secretary-General to have a summit of world leaders on climate ambition? Also, he did not respond to the question from the noble Lord, Lord Newby, about why the Prime Minister is not attending the General Assembly. Is that the reason why the Prime Minister is not going?

[Lord True (Con)]

Well, my Lords, there were so many hypotheticals there. I am no more informed about the Prime Minister’s diary than the noble Lord is. On climate change, there is no doubt that the UK is seen, rightly, as a leader. I repeated some of the reasons for that in the Statement. At the G20 we made a $2 billion pledge—£1.6 billion—to the Green Climate Fund. That maintains our position as one of the top donors to the world’s biggest climate fund. I think it was a little churlish of the noble Lord, for whom I have the greatest affection, to say that no commitment was displayed. The UK has been a top donor to the fund since its inception in 2015 and, frankly, this latest pledge ensures that we will remain so. This Government are absolutely committed to making advances in this area.

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

I appreciate this is not correct procedure, but the Minister is putting words in my mouth. I did not say that there was no commitment. What I said was that apparently the UN Secretary-General did not think that this country was worthy of an invitation to a summit. Nor has the Minister answered the question, now put twice, of why the Prime Minister is not attending the General Assembly.

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I think my inference was reasonable on the basis of the remarks the noble Lord made.

Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill

Debate between Lord Harris of Haringey and Lord True

Committee stage
Monday 6th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Privy Seal (Lord True)]

My Lords, at the previous stage I reminded the House, I thought courteously, of chapter 4.29 of the Companion, where it is made perfectly clear that lengthy and frequent interventions are not desirable, whether or not the Minister accepts them. This is Committee. The noble Baroness can return with a reasoned response to what the Minister has said, but I think it is to the advantage of the House generally in our debates to hear the Minister’s arguments and then respond in a proper Committee manner. If I may, the noble Baroness’s intervention seemed to me to be getting into the category of “lengthy”.

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

Before the Leader of the House sits down, perhaps he could just clarify that point. I have always understood that Committee stage in this House is about having a conversation so that the House as a whole can understand the nature of the arguments. With all due respect to the noble Baroness, Lady Ludford, with whom I often disagree, I think she is trying to get some elucidation, and I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Bellamy, will answer fully in a moment.

[The Lord Privy Seal (Lord True)]

I say to the noble Lord that the answer is precisely so; it is a conversation, but that conversation is conducted politely one to another. It is perfectly correct and reasonable for the House to ask a question for elucidation in the course of a Minister’s remarks, but a lengthier intervention criticising the Minister’s argument follows naturally in the Committee conversation afterwards.

Heatwave Response

Debate between Lord Harris of Haringey and Lord True

Thursday 21st July 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

My Lords, I refer to my interests in the register. The Minister has several times referred to the importance of local resilience forums. He has been asked in the past what their current level of funding is, and whether it has been maintained. Could he also tell us whether that funding is going to be properly ring-fenced? The other day I asked him about the Civil Contingencies Secretariat. Can he tell us whether that still exists, or whether it is continuing but on a basis of a 30% vacancy factor?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I very much regret that, although I wrote to the noble Baroness opposite about the resilience forums and funding, which is embedded and due to continue, I did not reply on the question that the noble Lord has asked and has asked again. That is a deep fault within me; I apologise to him and to the House, and I shall come back with an answer on the point that he asked about. I hope that he will pardon me for a day or two, until I get that information to him.

Extreme Heat Preparedness

Debate between Lord Harris of Haringey and Lord True

Tuesday 19th July 2022 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Lord True) (Con)]

I will certainly place it in the Library, because I regret to say that I do not have it in my folder.

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

My Lords, I refer to my interests in the register. Can the Minister confirm that the Civil Contingencies Secretariat in the Cabinet Office has been operating 30% under strength for a number of months and that, in addition, it was wound up last week? Who is minding the shop?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, so far as the management of the response to the heatwave is concerned, that is my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster. Overall responsibility for the longer-term net-zero objectives of this Government, which are greater than those of any Government before, is carried forward by Defra. The implication of the noble Lord’s question is that there might be some failure. I pay tribute to all those involved in planning for this heatwave. The forward warnings and information for the public have been very clear, and the emergency services have responded extraordinarily well. I express my thanks to them.

Restoration and Renewal: Location of House of Lords Chamber

Debate between Lord Harris of Haringey and Lord True

Monday 16th May 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord True (Con)]

As a Member of your Lordships’ House, my noble friend obviously makes an important point. As I have said more than once at this Dispatch Box, the questions of the future of the R&R programme and any decant location are decisions for Parliament. I have indicated that I understand that the commissions are currently seeking to have debates in both Houses, so your Lordships will be able to express further opinions before the Summer Recess.

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister has been admirably clear—as mud—about the constitutional position so far as this is concerned. I think that he accepted the point of the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, that both Houses should be together. What representations has the Leader of the House made on this question, both to Mr Gove and to her government colleagues? Will she reinforce the importance of the constitutional position that both Houses should be together, wherever in the country that might be, and that it is a matter for Parliament to decide this?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend the Leader of the House is alongside me here as a courtesy, listening to your Lordships’ points of view, and I am sure that she will have heard what the noble Lord said. There are many questions about what disagreements there might be, but I would be surprised if there were any disagreements between me and my noble friend on things I have said to your Lordships today.

Elections Bill

Debate between Lord Harris of Haringey and Lord True

Lords Hansard - Part 2 & Committee stage
Thursday 17th March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I will not follow that. The House is master of its own procedures, but it is up to those who wish to intervene to do so when they wish to give advice to other Members.

What I would say with respect to the noble Lord, and indeed to all those who have spoken—whether they were here at the start or were not—is that I understand that noble Lords on the other side are here because they have a specific concern. The concern or perception that I have heard expressed is that they believe they may be unduly affected. Having heard what has been said, I will endeavour to provide further reassurances and to explore the matter further. If noble Lords opposite and in other parts of the House are ready to do so, I am determined to continue the discussion on these topics beyond today—and indeed imminently, as we move over the next few days.

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

Could I just clarify what the Minister has said? First, I am not sure that he has yet satisfied the House—he certainly has not satisfied me—on whether the issue being addressed by this is a hypothetical future situation or whether the Government have examples of where this problem has arisen.

Secondly, he talks about further discussion and consultation. I know that that is the sort of process that the Minister would wish to follow, but I was slightly surprised to receive an email from an organisation that is not by any means political but is taking an interest in the implications of the Bill, to tell me that its information—I am not part of the usual channels—is that Report on this Bill is going to start two weeks today. If that is the case, when are all these discussions going to take place?

Elections Bill

Debate between Lord Harris of Haringey and Lord True

Lords Hansard - Part 1 & Committee stage
Tuesday 15th March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

I do not want to interrupt the Minister while he is in full flow, but his description of the way money flows to local authorities applies to a new provision. This is removing an existing provision: that is the distinction. Why are the Government removing a provision? Is it because they lost two court cases and were told they should be doing more?

[Lord True (Con)]

No, my Lords; the reality is that the current position is confined and the Government are seeking to move to a future where a range of assistance is available. Again, in my submission, the noble Lord does not characterise the position correctly. As for his allusion to court cases, everybody who has some knowledge of these proceedings knows very well that there was a court case in 2019, which is a matter that the Government must address and are addressing.

House of Lords: Appointments

Debate between Lord Harris of Haringey and Lord True

Monday 24th January 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I made no such threat—I do not threaten your Lordships’ House. I am merely drawing your Lordships’ attention to some empirical facts: 14 defeats in one night were more than in the whole of the last Session of the Gordon Brown Government.

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

My Lords, is that not perhaps a reflection of the quality of the legislation that the Government are bringing before this House? Could the noble Lord expand on his comment about the desirability of achieving “political balance” in this House and define for us what he means by that?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, this Government bring forward legislation of a quality that seems to please the other place rather more than your Lordships—that I confess. On an overall balance, I have said that the refreshing of the House needs to take into account the interests of all sides of the House.

Covid-19: National Memorial

Debate between Lord Harris of Haringey and Lord True

Wednesday 8th December 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord True (Con)]

Yes, it will be a United Kingdom commission.

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

My Lords, I am not sure that the noble Lord fully answered the question from my noble friend Lady McIntosh. If we are to be prepared for this eventuality, are we preparing ourselves for those eventualities that we might not yet be able to foresee? Will the Government look at their contingency arrangements—I declare my interests in the register on this—to make sure that they report regularly and in full to Parliament on the mitigations in place for each of the risks on the national risk register?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Lord is an indefatigable—I am not sure that I can say that word with the current state of my voice—advocate of the national risk register, and I accept where he is coming from. Obviously, there are certain unknown unknowns that are difficult to know, but I absolutely accept the spirit behind his question.

Mobile Telephones: Public Emergency Alert System

Debate between Lord Harris of Haringey and Lord True

Wednesday 21st April 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

My Lords, I draw attention to my interests in the register and beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Lord True) (Con)]

My Lords, the Cabinet Office and the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport are developing a cell broadcast alert system to enable people whose lives are at risk in an emergency to be rapidly contacted via their mobile phone. We are currently at the testing phase and, subject to successful progress, we hope to launch a service soon.

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

My Lords, the Cabinet Office successfully tested the use of emergency text alerts in 2013. Last month, according to the Daily Telegraph, a cell broadcasting system was trialled in Reading, 12 years after the technology was adopted in Australia and subsequently by many other countries. Can the noble Lord tell us whether this long-awaited further trial, which surprisingly he did not mention, was regarded as a success? Progress in rolling out a cell broadcast system nationwide is welcome but is not flexible enough for every emergency. France is to have a hybrid system using locality-based SMS as well. This would, for example, have better protected residents of Grenfell Tower and told them that the evacuation advice had changed. The successful tenderer to roll out a nationwide service could provide a hybrid system. Is that under consideration?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I gave the noble Lord a brief response and will reiterate the point. The project is at the stage where plans for public trials are now being drawn up. We are ensuring that the timing is carefully aligned with the Covid-19 strategy, to avoid any confusion.

COVID-19 Vaccine Certification

Debate between Lord Harris of Haringey and Lord True

Thursday 4th March 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Harris of Haringey]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government, further to the statement by the Prime Minister on 23 February (HC Deb, col 627), when they will provide further details of their review of the potential role of COVID-19 vaccine certification; and what organisations will be involved in that review.

[The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Lord True) (Con)]

My Lords, as set out in the Covid-19 response document published last week, the Government will review whether Covid status certification could play a role in reopening our economy, reducing restrictions on social contact and improving safety. My right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster will lead the review, and he is currently considering the approach to its conduct.

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab) [V]]

Covid passports would make things easier for travellers, care homes, venues and businesses, but there are also concerns about confidentiality and straying into making vaccines compulsory. Proper consent for any system of certification is vital, and the Government need to consult on this quickly and widely. How will that be done? There are also other issues, such as the risks of forgery and of people borrowing other people’s certification. How will those inspecting a Covid passport know, in the absence of a proper ID card or identity assurance system, whether the person presenting it is who they say they are and whether the certification applies to that person?

[Lord True]

My Lords, the noble Lord rightly sets out a number of issues that will have to be considered as the review goes forward. As the Prime Minister has said, there are deep and complex issues that we need to explore. We shall certainly draw on outside advice and opinion as we go forward.

National Risk Register

Debate between Lord Harris of Haringey and Lord True

Wednesday 3rd February 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I draw attention to my interests in the register and beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name.

[The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Lord True) (Con)]

My Lords, a range of documents has been published that provide an overview of preparedness for major risks, including the national risk register, which provides information on those that have the potential to cause significant disruption. The Government do not currently have plans to publicly share further reports on this matter due to the confidential nature of the information.

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, of course there are some preparations that it would not be right to reveal publicly, but that is what the Intelligence and Security Committee is for. Covid has already cost us more than half a trillion pounds, but at the start of the pandemic, of the emergency stockpile of 26 million NHS respirators, 21 million were past their use-by dates. Neither the lessons from Exercise Cygnus, nor the recommendations from the New and Emerging Respiratory Virus Threats Advisory Group, have been acted on. To govern is to choose, and the choice was to leave us underprepared. Is it not in the public interest for Parliament to know how ready we are for the other serious risks on the national risk register?

SolarWinds Cyberattack

Debate between Lord Harris of Haringey and Lord True

Monday 25th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord True (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for his comments. He is, of course, right that the current five-year strategy expires this year. The next iteration of the strategy is being developed and is expected to be published this year. This will set out the direction and ambition for the UK to be a continuing leader in cybersecurity, in line with the priorities of the integrated review. It will also set out how the UK will step up its efforts to shape the global rules, as my noble friend commented.

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I refer to my interests as set out in the register. The response from the noble Lord has been complacent. A large number of systems in the national infrastructure use SolarWinds software and have been compromised. The House has not been told how many. Will the Intelligence and Security Committee be briefed on the full extent and implications? There is a wider question: does reliance on such commercial software solutions not create a single point of failure for our security and economy, as multiple systems—otherwise unrelated—can be penetrated simultaneously, potentially leading to a catastrophic collapse?

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, the Government’s response is anything but complacent. I had hoped that I had made that clear, but I will say it again. The Government’s response is not complacent. The NCSC is working to mitigate any potential risk. Actionable guidance has been published through its website. We urge organisations to take immediate steps to protect their networks. We will continue to update as we learn more.

Intelligence and Security Committee: Russia Report

Debate between Lord Harris of Haringey and Lord True

Wednesday 22nd July 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord True]

My Lords, the noble Baroness raises a range of important matters, and I do not deny the importance of any of them. The Government keep all these factors in mind and are watchful. As I have said before, all our agencies are constantly assessing and seeking to deter the threats posed by hostile state activity.

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab) [V]]

The Minister must understand that he does himself and the Government no favours by continuing to disrespect the House in the manner with which he answers—or fails to answer—questions. The Government and the noble Lord have repeatedly told us there is no evidence of “successful” interference in elections or referendums, but that is not the point. The evidence received by your Lordships’ Democracy and Digital Technologies Committee, and indeed the ISC report, made it clear that Russian disinformation is designed not necessarily to produce a particular result but to undermine faith in democratic institutions and democracy itself. That is wider and more insidious. Do the Government accept this is a real and present danger, and what will they do about it?

[Lord True]

My Lords, again I am not commenting on the Government’s operational activities. I repeat that we have seen no evidence of successful interference, and we assess any new evidence as it emerges.

National Risk Register

Debate between Lord Harris of Haringey and Lord True

Thursday 4th June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

My Lords, I draw attention to my interests in the register, and beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.

[The Minister of State, Cabinet Office (Lord True) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government undertake regular reviews of our preparedness for the risks facing the United Kingdom. The national risk register outlines what is being done about the key risks and how the public can make themselves prepared for them. The latest version is being reviewed in the light of the Covid-19 response and will be published when that has been completed.

[Lord Harris of Haringey]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, but most risk registers explicitly show the actions taken to mitigate the risks alongside the risks themselves. None of this is easy because you can never eliminate risks, but it is reasonable that the public and Parliament should know what judgments the Government are taking to protect us so that we can judge whether the response is reasonable and proportionate. What have the Government got to hide in not publishing the actions being taken? If the concern is security, can those actions not be shared confidentially with the Intelligence and Security Committee and the Joint Committee on the National Security Strategy?

[Lord True]

My Lords, transparency is important but, as the noble Lord knows, the national security risk assessment is a document that has security implications. The national risk register itself has been published since, I believe, 2008. It was not published before. We publish a number of subsidiary documents that give guidance. We work through local resilience bodies and with stakeholders to deliver the capabilities sought in the register.

Covid-19: Restrictions

Debate between Lord Harris of Haringey and Lord True

Monday 18th May 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord True]

My Lords, the guidance that is in place is advisory. We have no plans to make it mandatory for people aged 70 and over to follow advice beyond what is mandatory for all of us. However, I repeat that the scientific and medical evidence is clear that those in older age groups are in graver danger from the serious consequences of this virus.

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

My Lords, does the Minister understand that the shielded group and their household members are facing an impossible choice between returning to work and breaching public health advice, and endangering their own health? Therefore, will the Government review the restrictions in place for those shielding from Covid-19, and will they consider establishing a right for this group to be furloughed in protecting themselves from the coronavirus, which requires them not to work?

[Lord True]

My Lords, I do not accept the premise of the noble Lord’s question. The advice to the shielding group is clear and is based on scientific advice that it is wise for them to avoid face-to-face contact and follow the shielding guidance. That advice is still in place and will remain so until the guidance is revised. I have told the House that the guidance is under review and that we hope that we will be able to say more during June.

House of Lords: Membership

Debate between Lord Harris of Haringey and Lord True

Tuesday 5th May 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord True]

My Lords, I understand what my noble friend is saying. For example, my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay of Clashfern makes an immense contribution, even though I think he only gives a year in age to Her Majesty the Queen. Anybody who had half a tin ear to the work of your Lordships’ House would understand the immense contribution made by older people in it. I submit that if an appointed House is not in good part a House of expertise and experience, it is nothing, but I repeat that the House needs to be refreshed from time to time.

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

My Lords, the story has all the hallmarks of a No. 10 briefing intended to stifle scrutiny by your Lordships’ House. If that is not the case, will the Government agree to strengthen scrutiny by this House, perhaps by agreeing to a daily statement by the relevant Minister following the Downing Street press conference, and allowing more time for debate and routine questioning of the Government? Surely the Minister accepts that transparency will strengthen public confidence in the Government and their handling of the present crisis.

[Lord True]

My Lords, I agree that transparency is vital in public affairs. I am not responsible for usual channels. I would be a wealthy man if I had a pound for every unattributable briefing that was knocked down under the last Labour Government. I have repudiated this story and the alleged proposals on behalf of the Government in Parliament, and there it should rest.

Business of the House

Debate between Lord Harris of Haringey and Lord True

Wednesday 4th September 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord True]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for his intervention. However, returning to the fundamental point, are we really going to allow the acceptance of the principle of a guillotine to go forward without any dissenting voice being allowed? What the Liberal Democrat—democrat—Chief Whip offered the House was a guillotine of a guillotine. We started off today with the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, saying that there will be no developments, no further guillotines and that nothing will happen. We have moved from the presentation of the most draconian guillotine Motion ever seen in this House to a Cross-Bencher who wished to put some points about the principle of the matter being closed down from a sedentary position by the Liberal Democrat Chief Whip—a guillotine of a guillotine. In the long proceedings I anticipate on this there may well be many occasions when it might be apt to intervene. I do not like to see the closure used, but it might be understandable. For my part as a parliamentarian—

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Lord has been speaking for four minutes and 39 seconds and is yet to address in any aspect the substance of the amendment he is moving. Is that not surely an abuse of the processes of this House?

[Lord True]

My Lords, what is an abuse of the processes of the House is for the noble Lord to come here and fail to read the amendment before the House. If he reads it, he will see that it is exactly to the point of the propriety of the guillotine and every point I have made has been germane. Perhaps he was asleep.

[Lord Harris of Haringey]

I appreciate that the noble Lord is hankering after the halcyon days he had in local government, but he is simply abusing the Liberal Democrats. I am very happy to abuse them on appropriate occasions, but we might try to carry out a debate focusing on the direct issues rather than streams of verbiage that do not get to the point.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord True]

My Lords, I am further encouraged by the increasing numbers of “No” on the other side. I remind the House, and everybody who takes any interest in this debate, that the power lies on that side—there with the Liberals and the Labour Party, which have seized control in the House of Commons.

[Lord Harris of Haringey]

This is about the 15th time that the noble Lord has made this point. Could he remind the House that the decisions being taken are being made by the whole House on a vote? It is not something which is just the product of the Labour Party or the Liberal Democrats. It is a decision of the House, and that is how it should be.

[Lord True]

The noble Lord can put his interpretation on it as he wishes; the Division lists will demonstrate who is closer to the truth. There will be a balance of opinion on the Cross Benches. I find it entirely extraordinary that the Labour Party and the Liberal Democrats, having forced through legislation in the House of Commons for perfectly good reasons of their own, now wish, before the Bill had even been presented—it has now been presented, we saw it arrive—to force a guillotine on this House. It is, again, the Liberal Democrats and the Labour Party, with some noble Lords in other parties; the bulk of the votes are there. Our proceedings are being broadcast, if anybody is watching. Those sitting opposite are on the Labour Benches; next to them are the Lib Dem Benches.

Housing and Planning Bill

Debate between Lord Harris of Haringey and Lord True

Wednesday 23rd March 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord True]

My Lords, I will not give the House a heart attack, but would the noble Lord consider before Report that surplus land in London might also go to boroughs, as well as to the mayor?

[Lord Harris of Haringey]

My Lords, I know that the noble Lord, Lord Tope, will be surprised at this, but I support his amendment. If you believe in the concept of a strong mayor—whether a strong Mayor of London or a strong mayor in combined authorities—what is proposed in these amendments is absolutely right. If you believe in a localist agenda, which I understand that the Government purport to do, this is the right approach. This should be how decisions about surplus land should be made.

On the basis of the comments I have made during the course of today’s Committee, it is important that there is the opportunity for people to make places. The people best placed to do that in this instance will be the mayors; the Mayor of London and the mayors of combined authorities. This is an opportunity. If it is the case—and I believe that my interventions in the last hour perhaps helped facilitate the discussions that may have led to an agreement—that the Government are going to accept the principles behind this, then I, for one, will be delighted.

Deregulation Bill

Debate between Lord Harris of Haringey and Lord True

Wednesday 4th March 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Hanham, for bringing this amendment back. I did not have the benefit of attending the meeting that she had with the noble Lord, Lord De Mauley, but presumably his explanations of why the Government were doing this crazy thing were not sufficiently compelling to persuade the noble Baroness not to bring back the amendment.

The Minister has to answer some very simple questions if he is to persuade anyone that this is a good idea. The first is: what is the problem that the Government are trying to solve? What is wrong with the scheme under the London Local Authorities Act 2007? What is failing in that scheme? What is the evidence that that is not working or that people are being unnecessarily penalised for a first-time offence? It looks as if the Government have brought forward a Deregulation Bill and have decided not to deregulate something in London but to complicate the regulatory process by introducing extra stages, processes and bureaucracy. If I thought I understood anything about what this Government were trying to do, it was that they believed in simplifying red tape and eliminating wasteful form filling and processes. However, the Government’s proposal makes this area more complicated, not less. The Minister needs to explain why that is the case and why this is an additional regulation Bill rather than a Deregulation Bill.

The Minister needs to explain another thing. I thought the Government believed that localism was another important principle, but the London local authorities have come together and developed a scheme which is working well—unless the Minister can produce evidence at this 11th hour of a whole series of problems of which nobody else was aware. However, we now have an example of the heavy-handed bureaucracy of the Department for Communities and Local Government, and the Minister’s right honourable friend Eric Pickles saying, “I want to put the dead hand of central government authority on to London local authorities”. How does this square with the Government’s policy on localism? I suspect that this measure was dreamt up for reasons of simplicity without anyone looking at the details, and now nobody is prepared to admit that they got it wrong. However, the reality is that it imposes additional regulation, goes against the principle of localism and we will end up with more bureaucracy and problems to solve a problem which does not exist.

[Lord True (Con)]

My Lords, I apologise to the House for not having been able to take part in previous discussions on this matter, but I speak as leader of a London local authority and I consider that it is my responsibility to draw the House’s attention to the way this measure is perceived by a leader of a London authority. I am also by training a historian of Byzantium. I think that very few Byzantine emperors would have devised such a system for their capital city.

On the previous amendment, the Minister on the Front Bench argued very strongly against increasing bureaucracy and extra red tape. He also argued that London needed to be deregulated. However, I anticipate that, just a few minutes later, the Minister now on the Front Bench—my noble friend Lord De Mauley—will tell us the opposite of that and, as the noble Lord, Lord Harris, suggested, will tell us that we need more complication and further regulation. I simply do not see the logic of that and I do not know of another leader of a London authority who shares the Minister’s view.

We heard the representations made by London authorities on a previous amendment. It is important to realise that this is not some bone-headed resistance from a bureaucratic body. People who are talking to government, or who wish to talk to government and advise them, have authority and the responsibility of satisfying the people of London on a day-to-day basis that their streets can be kept clean and be competently administered. I believe that they are clean and competently administered in most cases. We have a non-criminal system that was recently established with general consent and which I do not believe needs to be tampered with. If the Government really believe in deregulation and devolution, there is no rationale whatever in changing the London system.

My authority is a keen promoter of recycling. We pass all the Pickles tests. We do weekly collections and even collect from side alleys. We do not have bin snoopers but we do have the opportunity to impose a light-handed touch of regulation. In five years as leader I have not had a single call, letter or email complaining about this system. There is no evidence base that I am aware of to justify imposing a more complex system on London.

I suspect that at this stage the Government are not prepared to change their mind. That is a pity in the light of the arguments in the record that I have read and those that I have heard. Of course, it would be perfectly possible to proceed with two parallel systems. In fact, it would be interesting to see whether the Government’s more bureaucratic system outside London was more effective than the less bureaucratic system inside London. That could be a sensible way to test public policy. Even at this late stage, I urge my noble friend to consider whether the Government could not leave London well alone. That would not stop anything that is planned for the rest of the country in terms of decriminalisation. That is the considered view of experienced people in London based on their experience of doing the difficult job of trying to administer London and at the same time reduce staffing in local authorities and not take on extra bureaucrats to implement ever more complex systems. I hope that my noble friend will reflect on that when he comes to reply.