Post Office: Horizon Accounting System
Debate between Lord Harris of Haringey and Lord Fowler(4 years, 1 month ago)
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The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler)
My Lords, I think we have dealt with both questions there.
Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab) [V]
My Lords, we are all very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Arbuthnot, for continuing to press this issue doggedly over the last decade. Under the framework document, the Post Office business plan must address
“the state of the relationship … with the community of postmasters.”
The sole shareholder—the Government—is required to meet the CEO
“at least twice a year”.
Ministers have known all about this grotesque scandal. It is not good enough to hide behind the pretence that these matters were merely operational. At how many of those biannual meetings did the Minister pursue this? If he did not, surely that is negligence? If he did, why has it taken so long?
Business of the House
Debate between Lord Harris of Haringey and Lord Fowler(5 years, 2 months ago)
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Lord Harris of Haringey
My Lords, since we have already had a de facto debate, I move that the Question be now put.
The Lord Speaker
I am instructed by order of the House to say that the Motion “That the Question be now put” is considered to be a most exceptional procedure and the House will not accept it save in circumstances where it is felt to be the only means of ensuring the proper conduct of the business of the House. Further, if a Member who seeks to move it persists in his intention, the practice of the House is that the Question on the Motion is put without debate. Does the noble Lord still wish to move the Motion?
The Lord Speaker
Is this a suitable time to intervene before the closure Motion?
The Lord Speaker
I am instructed by order of the House to say that the Motion “That the Question be now put” is considered to be a most exceptional procedure and the House will not accept it save in circumstances where it is felt to be the only means of ensuring the proper conduct of the business of the House. Further, if a Member who seeks to move it persists in his intention, the practice of the House is that the Question on the Motion is put without debate. Does the noble Lord still wish to move the Motion?
Health and Social Care Bill
Debate between Lord Harris of Haringey and Lord Fowler(12 years, 9 months ago)
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Lord Fowler
My Lords, when the noble Lord said that the amendment was not exactly the perfect solution, that was a brilliant understatement of the position, as I think almost everyone would agree. My concern about the amendment is that it is a prime example of declaratory law. Almost no one would disagree with the aim of reducing bureaucracy. I suspect that almost every Government since 1946 have said that that has been their aim, although I am not sure that it takes the argument very much further. I am delighted that the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, is proposing this. He was a former director of the National Association of Health Authorities and Trusts, which I never felt was in the foreground of reducing bureaucracy in the health service, but that is doubtless a very unworthy allegation to make against him. However, going purely on the basis of the wording of the amendment, I think that it is simply impractical to have a,
“minimum level of management tiers” .
What does “minimum” mean? It is a wonderfully generalised statement.
The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, touched on the fact that there is a slight implication—I know that he distanced himself from it—of there being opposition to management inside the health service. Of course I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Warner, that management is absolutely of the essence, and I am delighted to have received praise from him. When I introduced general managers into the National Health Service following the report of the late Roy Griffiths, who, people may remember, did so much and produced a wonderful and exemplary report, it was in the face of opposition from virtually all the health service unions, including, needless to say, the British Medical Association, and most of the people who have been opposing the current Bill. It was also in the face of fierce opposition from the Labour Party—in the Commons at any rate; perhaps it was different in this House. Therefore, if I can make an entirely partisan point, I am delighted that we all agree on this serious point. More than 1 million people are employed in the NHS and there is a vast budget. To believe that you can get through the reorganisation without skilful and good management is completely ridiculous and we need to underline that. We are not talking about administrators—a phrase that is still used far too often. We are talking about managers, and what the health service needs is good managers.
I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, regards this as simply a good amendment for debate and that he will withdraw it because of its manifest defects. However, he rather criticised the new organisation going down to the local level regarding health promotion. Obviously, if you go down to the local level, you are going to have a number of local authorities. However, I should have thought that one thing on which both sides of the House would agree is that health promotion should be carried out with a ring-fenced budget and with local delivery. I should have thought that most people would want to see that. It contrasts with what the previous Government did and doubtless with what happened before that. Money which went to health promotion—I remember this happening with HIV/AIDS—simply was not used for that purpose; it was used for something else inside the health authority. I think that we are taking a giant step forward with health promotion and I am passionately in favour of that.
The amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, is interesting. I obviously agree with all the sentiments behind it, as I think most people do. However, as a piece of law, it is, frankly, defective.
Lord Harris of Haringey
My Lords, it is an enormous pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Fowler. I was particularly taken with his support for the principle of ring-fenced funding, which I trust the Minister will take into account when, a little later, we come to consider local healthwatch organisations.
Earlier today, we had a Question on the initiatives that had been taken in London on stroke care. I did not get an opportunity to pose this question but I was interested in who, in the absence of NHS London driving the process, would have taken the quite difficult decision to reorganise stroke care in London, given that it was opposed by a lot of the local providers and local organisations. This question also came up during the first day on Report when we looked at who would make decisions on reconfiguring services and who would make decisions when services were not adequate or when there were issues of equality of healthcare to be addressed. At one point, the Minister said:
“The CCGs will be supported in their efforts to improve quality by the NHS Commissioning Board”.—[Official Report, 8/2/12; col. 314.]
Later on, when I probed him on this, he said that “the board”—that is, the NHS Commissioning Board—“will be represented sectorally”. I was not quite sure what he meant, but it being Report stage I could not challenge him. He said:
“There will be field forces in all parts of the country … The majority of its staff will be a field force”.—[Official Report, 8/2/12; col. 316.]
I do not know how a majority can be a field force, but there we are. Later on, he said:
“However, of course, the board will be represented at a local level rather than only centrally, and we expect that the board will be represented in health and well-being boards and in the discussions that take place there”.
When I questioned whether that meant that they would be members, he said:
“It is entirely open to a health and well-being board to invite a member of the Commissioning Board to be a permanent member, but I am not saying that we are prescribing that”.—[Official Report, 8/2/12; col. 340.]
I took that to mean that the NHS Commissioning Board will be sitting at the centre of the National Health Service with its tentacles going out to all parts of the health service. The Minister did not really like that. He said:
“The role of the board is to support local commissioners; it is to be there as a resource to promote guidance, supported by the quality standards that we were debating earlier”.—[Official Report, 8/2/12; col. 352.]