Employment Rights

Debate between Lord Harrington of Watford and Julian Smith

Thursday 12th September 2013 Commons Chamber

[Richard Harrington (Watford) (Con)]

I must apologise for my lack of co-ordination in sitting down and standing up, Madam Deputy Speaker. I will endeavour to correct that in future.

I listened carefully to the speech by the right hon. Member for Oldham West and Royton (Mr Meacher) and wondered if he was living in the Britain of Benjamin Disraeli’s book “Sybil”, or the United States of “The Grapes of Wrath” by John Steinbeck. It is not the Britain I recognise today. Historically, I agree and accept that in the industrial revolution and beyond—I include his point about the 1920s—there was large-scale exploitation of workers by organised capital and its management. I know that that sounds a bit Marxist for Conservative Member, but I accept that that happened. Today, however, thanks very much to trade unions and, I might say, the endeavours of the Labour party in the past, there is now a situation where the rights of organised labour, and labour that is not organised, have reached an equilibrium with the rights of capital and management. I accept that right hon. and hon. Members on the Opposition Benches will disagree with that.

I am very pleased to say that the days of images of employers sitting in their brown leather chairs in gentlemen’s clubs in Pall Mall sacking workers at will, and the images of people driving up and hiring those who are desperate for employment for a day or two days, have long gone. Workers have won their rights the hard way and I would oppose any attempt to take them away. However, it is my contention that while low pay is a significant problem and I would never make light of it, and while poverty is a significant problem and I would never make light of it, the balance today is very different.

The argument that private sector employment spends its time trying to get around the labour laws by coming up with devices, such as zero-hours contracts and casual labour, is not only misleading but insulting to the many businesses, small and large, in my constituency that are expanding. They are taking on labour and apprentices—whoever they can—because they have confidence in the economy and in their employees. Employees are a very expensive commodity for employers, because of training and the time it takes for recruitment, and employing people is not done lightly. It is not something that employers do just because they think, “Well, I’ll try it for a few weeks and then if it doesn’t work I’ll fire them and make them get on with something else.” Life today is not like that. I can say that, having been an employer most of my life. In our current position we are all employers, albeit on a small scale.

[Julian Smith]

Will my hon. Friend clarify how many people he has created employment for in his long career?

[Richard Harrington]

In one business, I started with two employees, of which I was one. When I left, the business was responsible for 2,000 employees in seven countries, but I cannot claim full credit for that since the purchase of the company, when there were 600 employees. I therefore have some experience of being an employer, and of seeing different regimes in different countries. I am absolutely appalled by the exploitation of labour, in whatever country it may be, by those who employ people on wages that are not living wages. Whatever the law is, I believe that a morality applies: employers should not employ the labour if they cannot afford it.

In the limited time available, I would like to say a few words about zero-hours contracts. It is very easy to criticise them, without really understanding what they are. The general public might think, from reading newspapers, that these contracts are like the casual labour of old. Actually, they are not. This may sound like a GCSE question, but are they about modern employment flexibility or old-fashioned exploitation? It is clear from his speech that the right hon. Member for Oldham West and Royton feels that these contracts are very much like industrial revolution-type exploitation of labour.

It is certainly true that there are some abuses of these zero-hours contracts, and that should not be tolerated. I am delighted that the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills—I am pleased to see in her place the Under-Secretary of State for Business, Innovation and Skills, the hon. Member for East Dunbartonshire (Jo Swinson)—is conducting a full inquiry into zero-hours contracts, and we all very much look forward to hearing its findings.

My proposal is that many companies in all types of industry use zero-hours contracts responsibly. They provide work, for example, to parents who have different needs for child care and to students, and they provide opportunities for people to join the work force in a flexible manner, perhaps while they study or carry out other commitments. Companies that use these contracts responsibly offer full training, paid holiday and all the other things that people in normal employment receive—and so they should, both legally and morally. They do not ask people simply to be on call at all times or prevent them from knowing how much they are going to earn.

Let me cite McDonald’s as an example. Here I must disclose an interest in that my younger son has been working for the company over the summer. Interestingly, McDonald’s employs 92,000 people in 1,200 restaurants. Many Opposition Members sneer at this kind of work; they call it “McD work” and there are many other clichés that go with it. McDonald’s, however, takes a pride in the employment it offers and in the training it gives people. During the application procedure, it asks how many hours people want to work, and it organises its shift systems accordingly. I ask all hon. Members not to view zero-hours contracts in completely black-and-white terms; I think there is a place for them.

To finish, let me explain that during my employment career, I did a lot of business in Spain and a lot in the UK. I regret to have to tell you, Madam Deputy Speaker, that in Spain, where youth unemployment stands at more than 53%, much of the problem stems from the fear of employers knowing that if they recruit people but things do not work out, they will be left with a terrible liability. They are not employing people and not giving people a chance because of the type of laws that certain Opposition Members would have us embrace in this country.

Self-Employment

Debate between Lord Harrington of Watford and Julian Smith

Tuesday 24th January 2012 Westminster Hall

[Richard Harrington]

That is a very valid point. It could help and it is part of the whole picture that I want to build up in this brief speech.

We have to tell young people that setting up a business and employing people is socially acceptable and good for the country, and that they will make a lot of money. If they want fast cars, big houses and all that stuff, providing they pay their taxes, well done to them. It is very easy in politics to take examples of capitalism not working, of people being paid large amounts of money without doing much work for it and of people avoiding tax. We all have our views on those things and I think that everyone would agree that many of those issues need correcting. However, my fear is that such matters help to fuel the view among young people that business is not a very cool thing to be in, which is not right.

A socially responsible young person should be told, “Yes, you can do the kind of occupation that is directly socially responsible. You can be a teacher; you can be a nurse; you can qualify as a doctor and help to cure cancer; you can be a social worker. Those are all very good. But if you decide that you want to go into business and employ people, providing you pay your taxes, that is as much use to the country, if not more, because you are helping many people in their way of life. You are helping to fund the teachers, the doctors and the social workers and it is a very, very creditable thing to do.” Society should say to such a young person, “Well done to you. You have done something that is very worth while. Do not believe the stuff about Gordon Gekko and greed is bad. Actually, greed is quite good. Providing you pay your taxes and employ people, you are really contributing a lot to society.”

One of the big problems in this country is leaping over that barrier to make people think. Let us consider the notion of wanting things. People will only go into business to make money. I did it to make money. I did it because I did not have any money, and I did not like not having it. There is nothing wrong with that. People have to understand that going into business is a good thing to do. When I got my business to the level of employing 600 people, it was a constant nightmare. I was often worried. I did not sleep at night for thinking, “Have I done the right thing?” My wife once told me at 4 o’clock in the morning—she did not help matters; she never says things at 4 o’clock in the morning that help matters—that I was directly responsible for the lives of nearly 2,000 people. That is quite a burden of responsibility. People might think, “He’s filthy rich,” or, “He makes loads of money.” However, whatever people think and say about those in business, they do not believe that they are performing a socially responsible function.

I want the Government and all of us who are in the opinion-forming business—that is what politics is, irrespective of what party hon. Members belong to—to realise that something has to be done to change that attitude, because it is in the national interest.

[Julian Smith (Skipton and Ripon) (Con)]

Does my hon. Friend agree that teachers have a major role to play? What does he think teachers need to be doing and saying to young people on the subject of enterprise?

[Richard Harrington]

I thank my hon. Friend for that comment. The problem is that teachers by definition have chosen teaching as a career, so it is very hard for them to communicate on that. I do not want to take much more of this Chamber’s time, but I will come on to a proposal that I think answers my hon. Friend’s question.

I am not being critical of what the Government are doing. Yesterday, the Prime Minister and other Ministers made an announcement about this year being the year of the business and said that a minibus will go around different institutions, helping to give people the idea to set up businesses. All that is very good, but the cream of young people who are thinking, “I’m going to go to Goldman Sachs,” or, “I’m going to become a top man or woman at the Bar,” or, “I’m going to be a partner at Deloitte,” need to think, “Actually, the status of my setting up my own business and employing people will launch me to a higher level in society. I will be applauded and not thought of as a person who tries to avoid taxes and should hide the fact they have bought a decent car.”

The last vestige of the class system in this country is contained in the attitude that business is a bit grubby, something to be looked down and not something that proper chaps do. Until we change that attitude, we will not have enough people setting up businesses, employing people and providing the growth that we need in the future.