European Union Referendum (Date of Referendum etc.) Regulations 2016

Debate between Lord Hannay of Chiswick and Lord Faulks

Wednesday 2nd March 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Faulks]

Some courts are more predictable than others, but the confident assertion from all legal advisers whose opinion I have read is that, for example, were there to be an argument to the effect that our changes to migration arrangements were somehow contrary to the principle of free movement, there is no way that the European Court would say, “Well, the treaty has freedom of movement, but all the member states have agreed to the contrary that there should be this arrangement for the United Kingdom”. I simply cannot believe that it is arguable that there would be any other conclusion than that there was honouring of the agreement.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick]

My Lords, could the Minister confirm what I believe to be the case, and stated when I addressed the House earlier: that in the cases of Denmark and Ireland, where postdated commitments were entered into for treaty change, which took quite a few years to fulfil, there was no evidence and no case in which the European Court of Justice sought to tamper with those agreements? That is rather more important than endless speculation about what it might do.

[Lord Faulks]

I am grateful to the noble Lord. He is quite right. Those are substantial precedents and a clear indication of what might happen—as he quite rightly said, in invoking the Latin maxim pacta sunt servanda.

European Union Referendum Bill

Debate between Lord Hannay of Chiswick and Lord Faulks

Wednesday 18th November 2015 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Faulks) (Con)]

My Lords, the purpose of these amendments is to allow British citizens resident in other EU member states to vote in the EU referendum, regardless of the time they have been resident overseas. They would, therefore, lift the 15-year time limit on voting rights in the referendum for British citizens resident overseas, but only for those Britons resident in the EU. I have listened to the arguments put forward today and in Committee. I fear that, as with all the proposed changes to the franchise, the Government’s position remains the same.

I am, of course, sympathetic to the case. Indeed, as has been referred to, the Government are committed to getting rid of the 15-year time limit and have committed to bringing forward a stand-alone, dedicated Bill to provide for votes for life in due course. On the principle of removing the 15-year rule, therefore, I have no argument with the amendments. I can also understand the desire of British citizens who have been abroad for more than 15 years—whether they live in the EU, or within Europe in Oslo, in the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Grocott—to participate in the referendum. I appreciate that some will feel frustrated that they will not be able to participate. The other part of the 100,000 obviously sent their emails to me, rather than to the noble Baroness, Lady Morgan. They can argue that they might be affected by the vote, but I fear that that does not change the Government’s position on the franchise as a whole.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick]

My Lords, there seems to be a perhaps excessive interest in the probably not very large numbers of British citizens who live in Norway. It might be worth recalling that, whatever the result of the referendum, they will not be affected. They live in a country in the European Economic Area, which is part of the single market. All their rights and privileges, and all the advantages they get from that, will remain with them whichever way we vote. That is what makes them different from British citizens in EU countries.

[Lord Faulks]

I am grateful for that interruption. The Government’s commitment is to votes for life for everybody, whether they live in the EU or elsewhere. The point is not in terms of their direct association with the EU, but whether they are British citizens who live abroad. Therefore, the point that I understood the noble Lord, Lord Grocott, to be making, which had some force, was that it is mere happenstance whether an individual lives in a country in the European Union or outside of it.

Removing the 15-year rule will be a complex and important constitutional change. It is not something that we suggest should in any way be rushed by way of a single amendment. It needs a whole Bill to be implemented properly—a Bill that plainly will be opposed by the party opposite. There are decisions to be taken. The media and the public should have a chance to scrutinise these changes. That is something of an echo of the argument I advanced unsuccessfully on the previous amendment. We will need to consider questions of potential fraud and how we should update the registration system. It is not something that should in any way be rushed through. This is just a small sample of the decisions that would need to be taken and implemented. Changing the franchise in this way is no small task. Giving effect to such a change would take a significant amount of time and resources in central government and in local authorities.

In many ways this is the most complex change to the franchise being proposed today. The group of people in question are almost by definition not known to us, as British citizens do not need to register when they move abroad. There are many, like the relations of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Scott, who will be well known and easily identifiable, but for many others it is difficult to have an adequate canvass. We could hardly go door to door, as electoral registration officials can in the UK. I entirely accept the contribution that many who live in the EU have made over a long period to Great Britain, as the noble Lord, Lord Lester, pointed out, although they have not hitherto taken part in general elections if they are outside the Westminster franchise. Verifying identities for others is a complicated task where a person has been away for at least a decade. For example, it might be difficult to prove that they have been previously resident in the UK.

These changes have to be made judiciously and carefully to ensure that the system remains transparent. My noble friend Lord Lexden said in Committee and again today that the Government should have started the process of the votes for life, which would, of course, incorporate this amendment. I know that is an issue close to his heart. I assure him and the House that the Government are committed to this change, but without knowing the date of the referendum I cannot, of course, guarantee that the change will be implemented in time. As I said, the decisions are complex.

I return finally to the point that I have made before. Indeed, I think it is one of the areas of common ground between this party and the party opposite at least. This process must be seen to be fair. There is clearly a view taken, as exemplified by the contribution of my noble friend Lord Hamilton, that a change of this sort may have an ulterior motive. I do not presume to guess how anybody is going to vote, whether they live outside the United Kingdom, outside the EU or whether they are under 18 or not. However, it is important that this should not in any way be seen to be some form of specially amended franchise so as to achieve a certain outcome. Nothing should undermine its legitimacy. The public might ask why we have made this change now just in time for the referendum. Should it not have been done as a much more careful stand-alone vote?

[Lord Faulks]

The position is that British citizens are not able to vote in referenda in other European countries. This minor exception, which includes Peers and Gibraltarians who are members of the Commonwealth, is a very minor change to reflect that fact rather than to reflect the fact that Gibraltar happens to be in Europe and is part of the south-west area. I do not think it follows therefore that there should be an automatic change to the whole approach.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick]

Before the noble Lord sits down—I think he is winding up—I do think it is a bit bizarre that we have got as far as the housemaid’s baby now. It is a very small baby—it does not matter very much. It is a change. However, the Ministry of Justice seems to be singularly ignorant of the role that British embassies, consulates and other diplomatic missions in the EU play. They have a duty of care to British citizens living in those countries. They know where a lot of them live—not, I am sure, all of them—and they have a duty of care. If those citizens are accused of a crime, they have to try to help them. So it is no good simply saying, “We don’t know where they all are. It’s a huge problem”. That is not actually the truth.

[Lord Faulks]

I would not dream of underestimating the role of British embassies and consulates around the world. They play an extremely valuable and continuing role. Nevertheless, it is asking a great deal of them—even of the most conscientious embassy—to be conscious of the whereabouts of all the various citizens living in countries outside the United Kingdom.

European Union Referendum Bill

Debate between Lord Hannay of Chiswick and Lord Faulks

Monday 2nd November 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick]

Is the Minister seriously suggesting that, if and when the piece of legislation we are now discussing goes on the statute book—which I hope and think will probably be around Christmas—the Electoral Commission will have any inhibition at all in getting on with it, should it contain a provision that this group of people should have the vote? Surely he is not suggesting that the Commission has to wait until the Government decide the date of the referendum before it starts work.

[Lord Faulks]

The date of the referendum is of course unknown. No doubt the Electoral Commission will fulfil whatever the existing legislative obligation requires it to do. It may require a great deal of energy and expenditure, and while I am not saying from the Dispatch Box that it would be impossible, one should not underestimate the complexities involved in the process.

The noble Lord, Lord Shipley, said in effect that he is concerned that there was some form of delay by the Government. Perhaps I may reiterate that the Government are committed to scrapping the 15-year rule and they are currently considering the timetable to do this. The date of the referendum is not known, so I am afraid that I cannot make any commitment that votes for life will be in place in time for the referendum. However, we should remember that many British citizens living abroad will be eligible to participate in the referendum vote.

European Union Referendum Bill

Debate between Lord Hannay of Chiswick and Lord Faulks

Wednesday 28th October 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Faulks]

It is not a question of cutting people out, it is a question of deciding, on all the evidence, with careful consideration of what we know about what most young people of a certain age can or cannot do, and coming to a consistent view. The view has been taken that the age should be 18. Why should we change it simply to deal with this particular opportunity to vote?

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick]

Perhaps the noble Lord could help a little on this. He is advancing, as always, a highly sophisticated presentation of a totally negative point of view on giving the vote to 16 and 17 year-olds, but he is a member of a Government who held the door open to give Scots 16 and 17 year-olds the vote. Where were all those arguments then? Lying on the floor, I suppose.

[Lord Faulks]

Although it is tempting to go down that route and describe the cause or causes of the door being open—I was not in any position to argue that matter then—I think that we should return to the basic fact that, after careful consideration, 18 was considered the right age. Of course the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, is quite right: there is an element of arbitrariness about whatever age you choose. The question is: is it an age which has, by and large, received approval and consent? Yes it is. Of course that does not mean that this is the last word on the subject; people will differ about these things. There will be people who think that 21 was the right age and it should never have been lowered to 18.

Noble Lords will know that the power to determine the voting age for Scottish Parliament and local elections in Scotland was devolved to the Scottish Parliament, and the Scottish Parliament decided to lower the voting age to 16 for those elections. The Government have responded to requests to increase the powers of the devolved Administrations and will soon devolve similar powers to the Welsh Assembly.

Devolution, by its very nature, gives rise to the possibility of different laws applying in different parts of the United Kingdom. It does not mean that we must harmonise our differences. The fact that people may do certain things in Scotland aged 16—get married without parental consent, formally change their name, access their birth records if adopted—does not mean that the same rules must or should apply across the United Kingdom. One of the advantages of devolution is the capacity of different parts of the United Kingdom to make these choices.

More specifically, what about the precedent set by the Scottish independence referendum? The decision was made by the Scottish Parliament that whoever opened the door would decide on the franchise. It is right that decisions about the franchise for elections and referendums that affect the whole of Great Britain and Northern Ireland are made by this Parliament. As I said, decisions of the Scottish Parliament do not and should not prevent Parliament from taking a different decision.

The Government do not think that this is the right vehicle, as my noble friend Lord Higgins pointed out so cogently. Any change to the entitlement to vote must to be considered properly and fully in specific legislation. I gave some examples where the law places restrictions on 16 and 17 year-olds. Any proposal to lower the voting age must be carefully examined in that overall context.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Faulks]

I fear that in order to get a really adequate answer, the noble Baroness may have to regroup her amendment. I endeavoured to say that what might happen to EU nationals was a matter of hypothesis which I fear that the Government are not prepared to go into at this stage.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick]

I am most grateful to the Minister for having responded in such a thoughtful way to this amendment, although I have to say that in earlier parts of his statement, I thought he was tempted back again to the reductio ad absurdum he employed on the previous group of amendments. However, we moved on to better ground and he addressed some of the arguments very well. He was very careful, though some others in this debate have been less careful, not to predict that we would know who voted in which way in the referendum, and be able to say, “It was the foreigners that did it”. Other Members of this House seem not to know that we have a secret ballot, but we do.

British Bill of Rights

Debate between Lord Hannay of Chiswick and Lord Faulks

Wednesday 28th October 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Faulks]

I have already made clear to the House what Ministers regard as their duties, and I do not resile for a moment from that. As the noble Lord will well know, details of internal discussions and advice are not disclosed to the House—and I do not propose to depart from that well-established convention.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB)]

The Minister has given us a very forthright reply on President Putin—but is he quite sure that President Putin takes the same view as he does?

[Lord Faulks]

I cannot for a moment pretend to understand President Putin’s thought processes or his secret desires. But whether or not we are satisfied with the decisions of the Strasbourg court can hardly justify some of the extraordinary tactics that he uses in Ukraine, or to treat dissidents and those who oppose his policies.

Criminal Justice and Data Protection (Protocol No. 36) Regulations 2014

Debate between Lord Hannay of Chiswick and Lord Faulks

Monday 17th November 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Faulks]

We consider that the safeguard should be capable of answering that particular problem. The important issue is whether there is an unnecessary delay. It will be appropriate to look at the particular facts of the case and for the judge responding to the warrant to decide whether he or she is satisfied about the arrangements. That, I suggest, is an answer, and unfortunate cases such as that of Andrew Symeou, which I accept was an egregious example of the European arrest warrant not working satisfactorily, should be avoided.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick]

Before the Minister moves on from this point, does he not agree that it is perhaps a pity that our debate tonight has not mentioned explicitly one really crucial dimension for this country, which is the Anglo-Irish dimension? It is a very important one. All of us who have taken evidence on this matter are perfectly clear that the European arrest warrant has enabled the depoliticisation of extradition proceedings between the two parts of the island of Ireland. That has been of enormous benefit to both of them. If we were to junk the European arrest warrant, the Irish have no substitute to put in its place because they removed the Council of Europe convention when they transposed the arrest warrant into their legislation. Therefore, we would risk falling back into the worst turmoil of politicised extradition proceedings, often for enormously serious crimes.

European Union: Justice and Home Affairs

Debate between Lord Hannay of Chiswick and Lord Faulks

Thursday 8th May 2014 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Faulks) (Con)]

My Lords, 2014 is a critical year for Europe. Within weeks, we will have a new European Parliament and, within months, a new EU Commission. There can be no doubt that the face of Europe is changing, just as it has changed dramatically over the past 25 years.

One of the changes we want to see is the EU becoming more flexible. The Dutch express this as: “Europe where necessary, national where possible”. This is our approach when it comes to justice and home affairs. In some cases, there are clear benefits from working at a European level. In others, it makes sense to operate at national level. Noble Lords will be aware that, under Protocol 21 to the treaties, the UK enjoys the right to choose whether to opt in to new justice and home affairs measures brought forward by the European Commission.

The previous Government made a commitment to table a report every year on the operation of the opt-in. Because of this Government’s strong commitment to parliamentary scrutiny, we have maintained that pledge. We have published reports every year since 2011 on the matter and we have also included in those reports figures on the so-called Schengen opt-out under Protocol 19 to the treaties. This provision allows the UK to decide whether to opt out of Schengen-building measures. The latest report was published on 23 January this year. Part of the Government’s scrutiny commitment is that the report will be made available for debate—which is precisely what noble Lords are invited to do today.

Noble Lords will have observed that there are two Motions on the Order Paper. This Motion relates to the UK’s 2014 decision to opt out of all police and criminal justice measures agreed before the entry into force of the Lisbon treaty. This matter will be familiar to many noble Lords, for it has been subject to much debate in this House and the other place.

On 23 January this year, my noble friend Lord Taylor, who will respond to this debate, closed what was a most impressive debate in this House on the matter. Of course, the matter was debated at length last year when this House endorsed the Government’s decision to exercise the opt-out and seek to rejoin the 35 measures set out in Command Paper 8671.

The Government have also committed to returning to Parliament for a further vote before formally seeking to rejoin any measures. That vote will be held well ahead of 1 December this year. Before that, it is appropriate that Parliament is given every opportunity to scrutinise this important issue. That is why today we are providing noble Lords with additional time to look at the matter, as the Government recently did in the other place, and there will be additional time to debate the matter later this year.

I turn first to the annual opt-in report. The bare facts are these: in the period covered by the report— 1 December 2012 to 30 November 2013—the UK opted in to 13 proposals under the JHA protocol, and decided not to opt in to a further eight. Decisions on whether to opt in to a proposal are taken on a case-by-case basis, but some basic criteria are applied. For each measure, they are: what will be the impact on our security, on our civil liberties, on the integrity of our criminal justice system or on the ability for us to control our borders? How might our system of common law, shared by only a small, select group of other member states, be affected? Over and above everything else, what is in our national interest?

The report shows that last year, for example, we opted in to a Council decision relating to an agreement between the EU and Canada on the transfer of passenger name record data. Such data, known as PNR data, have real value in the tracking down of people suspected of the most serious crimes, and are already used by the UK in our border systems programme. Indeed, the provisions outlined in the Council decision are already in place, so here was a practical agreement, in the public interest, that the UK could support and be part of.

Other examples included proposals to improve insolvency proceedings, and a welcome and important clarification to the rules governing jurisdiction—as set out in the Brussels 1 regulation—which will make way for the creation of the unified patent court in January next year.

Noble Lords will also be aware that in August last year the Commission published a proposal for a European Public Prosecutor’s Office. The coalition agreement made it clear that the Government would not take part in the European Public Prosecutor’s Office, so we did not opt in. A centralised European prosecutor with harmonised powers to initiate investigations and order investigative measures is incompatible with the division of responsibilities in the UK between law enforcement and prosecutors and the role of the independent judiciary. The idea of a single legal area is an unwelcome move towards harmonisation. That is not to say that we do not wish to co-operate at all with our European partners in ensuring the prosecution of crime and the detection of offenders.

In addition, we do not believe that the EPPO is an appropriate or proportionate response to tackling fraud against the EU’s budget. A body working at EU level would, at best, duplicate the efforts of dedicated organisations working at a national level; at worst, it could hamper efforts to prevent fraud at national level. Reflecting that view, this House and the House of Commons shared the view that this was not something that was best tackled at EU level. Both Houses issued reasoned opinions that the proposal breached the subsidiarity principle. Simply put, that is the principle that, in areas of shared competence between the EU and member states where action can be taken at member-state level, it should be so taken. EU-level action should be reserved for those areas where it can genuinely add value.

I offer the European Public Prosecutor’s Office as an example—perhaps the most high-profile one—of where the Government have taken the view that it is not in the national interest to opt in to a measure. Others are set out in the report, but I know that many noble Lords will wish to bring their considerable expertise to bear on these issues so I will not detain the House any longer on the annual opt-in report.

I shall return briefly to the 2014 decision. I first express my thanks to the EU Committee of this House for its ongoing work in scrutinising this matter. It is an issue in which I know a number of noble Lords have taken a keen interest, and the Government are grateful to them for their work in this area and for the considerable expertise that is brought to bear on the consideration of relevant issues. We are grateful not least to the noble Lords, Lord Hannay and Lord Boswell, and the noble Baroness, Lady Corston, for their ongoing analysis of an extremely complex issue. Their committees have produced two extremely thorough and valuable reports on this subject and I want to express my thanks on behalf of the Government for their chairmanship.

I turn to the progress on negotiations to seek to rejoin measures. I pause at this stage gratefully to acknowledge that the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, was good enough to provide an advance indication of the remarks that he proposes to make in this debate. I know that one area that he—and, I am sure, other Members of the House—will raise is the possibility, to put it crudely, of the Government dropping the ball during the negotiations. I will endeavour to say what I can about that in my following remarks.

The process for rejoining measures depends on whether they are classified as Schengen or non-Schengen measures. On the Schengen side, a Friends of the Presidency working group has been established in Brussels to discuss all the issues for member states, linked to the end of the five-year transitional period set out in Article 10 of Protocol 36. This working group will also allow us to discuss the Schengen measures which we are seeking to rejoin and agree the decision which will allow us to do so formally.

The House will doubtless be anxious for me to address the question of what other member states have said about our package of measures. They have been broadly supportive of the UK’s position. There are of course many technical matters that are subject to discussion. These include whether measures are now obsolete or whether, and to what extent, new measures will replace old ones. That is precisely what this working group has been set up to do. At the appropriate time, when a conclusion has been reached, we will update Parliament on these matters—but, as I am sure the House will understand, it would not be appropriate to do so now when there are still discussions to be had.

Discussions with the Commission on the non-Schengen side are also ongoing. As we are sure noble Lords will also appreciate, this is a particularly complex matter and a great many process and technical matters have to be discussed. We must be mindful that this is a negotiation and, as such, we do not wish in any way to prejudice our position in these negotiations. To do so would not be in anyone’s interest. However, I can say that these discussions have been very constructive and our aim remains to reach an in-principle deal well ahead of 1 December, and return to Parliament for a further vote before formally seeking to rejoin measures. We want to ensure that there are no operational gaps, and our European partners appreciate this. That is perhaps reflected in the fact that we exercised the opt-out in July 2013—although the deadline was May of this year—to give us enough time to undertake these negotiations.

The Government have been clear throughout this process that Parliament will be given a vote on the final list of measures that the Government apply to rejoin, and I am happy to repeat that commitment today. Scrutiny can be an iterative and long-running process, especially on a matter such as this. That is why we will debate the matter at length again later in the year and why we have committed to producing a full impact assessment on the measures we seek to rejoin in good time, before a second vote. It is important that Parliament is given the opportunity to scrutinise the matter fully. I look forward to hearing the contributions of noble Lords when we return to Parliament later in the year.

Perhaps I may return to the main business of the day, the annual opt-in report. I commend this report to the House and look forward hearing your Lordships’ views on its content.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB)]

My Lords—

European Union Bill

Debate between Lord Hannay of Chiswick and Lord Faulks

Monday 13th June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick]

I am most grateful to the noble Lord for giving way, but he has managed in about three sentences to say three incorrect things. He said that in moving the amendment, we paid no attention to what he referred to as the big five. If he had listened to my introductory statement, he would have heard that, exactly to the contrary, we have amended the text that we had on the table in Committee by including Schengen and the international military force. If I may say so, it is clearly not sensible in our debate to pay no attention whatever to the person who introduces the amendment. I covered all that quite thoroughly.

[Lord Faulks]

I am grateful to the noble Lord for his intervention. I listened carefully to what he said and took on board the fact that the suggestion was that some other matters might also be the subject of a referendum if they were joined with those explicitly dealt with by the amendment. I also listened to what he said about the fact that there had been a change since Lisbon because now there was to be parliamentary approval, which was not the case before. I hope that the noble Lord accepts that I had listened to what he said, but, time being as it was, I was trying to truncate my remarks to make them digestible.

I return to the European public prosecutor, which is a matter which I suggest would not be in our national interest for the reasons I gave in Committee. It would involve us adopting the corpus juris, as it has been called; it might well involve us having national prosecutors representing the European public prosecutor; and it might involve an attempt at harmonisation of legal systems, so that we would have to take on board, for example, rules in relation to evidence; hearsay—