NATO Brussels Summit 2018

Lord Hannay of Chiswick Excerpts

Monday 16th July 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

The noble Baroness is absolutely right. I cannot remember exactly when— I have repeated so many Statements recently—but I referred to it in a recent previous Statement, so there is some more information there. She is right that we were an initial signatory to the letter, along with, I think, eight other European countries. As I have explained to the House, I do not have the details with me today but I am happy to write to the noble Baroness. However, it is something that we discussed in response to a Statement a few weeks ago.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB)]

My Lords, does the noble Baroness not recognise that there was an extraordinary divergence between the NATO communiqué, from which the Statement is heavily drawn and which said all the right things about increased spending and taking a robust attitude towards Russia, and what the President of the United States said at the sessions and to the press afterwards, when he said all the wrong things about pretty well everything? Does she not also recognise that the way in which President Trump links his not terribly well-informed concerns about trade with European countries and about the energy balance, when he got confused between Germany’s imports of gas and its overall energy supplies, is extraordinarily unhelpful? It undermines the whole doctrine of NATO deterrence, which is based not on transactional attitudes, such as those of President Trump, and not on conditionality about trade but on the unconditional support of all NATO members for each other? Surely it would be better if we faced up to the fact that there is this contradiction. What can the noble Baroness say about that?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

The Brussels declaration was agreed by all allies, including President Trump, at the summit. As I said, he was clear about his commitment to NATO. The US has more than doubled its budget allocation for its European deterrence initiative and US forces are leading NATO’s enhanced forward presence in Poland, so we also need to look at the US’s actions and how they link into the support that the President reiterated following the summit.

Death of a Member: Lord Carrington

Lord Hannay of Chiswick Excerpts

Tuesday 10th July 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Patten of Barnes (Con)]

My Lords, I shall be extremely brief, although not half as brief as Lord Carrington would have wanted me to be, because one thing for sure is that, although these are richly deserved tributes to one of the greatest Englishmen of his generation, he would have found them all a bit of an embarrassment.

I spent two years of my life, when I first came into politics, working for Lord Carrington when he had just been made the chairman of the Conservative Party, which the Leader of the House referred to. It has to be said that he did not greet the news of that employment with unalloyed enthusiasm. He was able to contain his joy within the bounds of public decorum, but he did the job with great verve and, as ever, with a great sense of social obligation. Working for him for two years was not only greatly enjoyable, but it was in many respects the best part of my education—I do not mean just in politics; I mean my education as a man. He was a great leader. He gave the credit to others when things went well and took the blame when things went badly: an old-fashioned set of virtues, which perhaps we should occasionally remember.

I think he regarded politics in part as an obligation but also as an honourable adventure. He was personally brave, he was wise, he was hugely funny. Alas, I cannot repeat many of his anecdotes, not least some of his anecdotes about his friends in Australia. He was a very wise and extremely competent discharger of public business. Above all, he was a great public servant. I think it is true to say that the word “honour” is hyphenated to his name. He served this country extraordinarily well, he brought lustre to politics and we should all be hugely grateful for a life wonderfully well lived.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB)]

My Lords, perhaps I may say just a few words as one of the Members of your Lordships’ House who served under Lord Carrington in the Foreign Office. I simply say that no Foreign Secretary I served—and I served quite a few—did I admire and respect more than Lord Carrington. He was a wonderful boss and he led the Foreign Office as it deserved to be led.

I was very glad that the noble Lord, Lord Patten, mentioned something not mentioned by anyone else, which was his sense of humour, which was remarkable. During those rather tedious meetings of the Council in Brussels, he was wont to write limericks about some of those around the table. When he left the Foreign Office, we collected them together and gave them to him to remind him that there were at least some useful moments spent in Brussels.

I bear my tribute to him because he was a great man.

[Lord Baker of Dorking (Con)]

My Lords, could I say two personal things about Peter? In Ted Heath’s Government, he was the most senior Minister and I was the most junior—so junior that I was often left off the list. But I did occasionally attend meetings with him, and the thing that I discovered, his great talent, was that he read his briefs with his fingertips. On any issue, he instinctively knew what the main issues were and what could and could not be done. That is a very rare gift among politicians, and it was why Ted depended on his judgment so much.

The one job that Ted gave him that he did not like was chairman of the Conservative Party, as has been said by my noble friend Lord Patten. He came to speak for me in a by-election when I was fighting for the constituency of St Marylebone, and he made the speech that chairmen have to make: “The candidate is brilliant, and the Government are the most successful for a decade or so”—both debatable. He was glad that it was all over and finished so that he could go and have a drink in the pub with the people next door.

He was never a propagandist for the Tories. I believe that he said once to the deputy chairman of the Conservative Party, who is sitting next to me, who was then called John Selwyn Gummer, “I don’t really like Conservatives”. None the less, he had Conservative instincts. He was not in the Thatcher Government for very long, because he resigned, but we were attending a Cabinet committee attended by the chairman of the coal board, Lord Marshall, who was going on and on. The noble Lord was quite right to say that Lord Carrington wrote very good limericks; he had a gift for poetry doggerel. The limerick ran:

“The noble Lord Marshall of Goring


Is frightfully, frightfully boring,

And when we come

To 20 to one

I think I’ll hear sounds of snoring”.

That shows the human nature of Peter. He need not have gone into politics. He was gifted in diplomacy, defence and business. We were very lucky to have him in the political world. He was a great public figure.

Exiting the EU

Lord Hannay of Chiswick Excerpts

Monday 9th July 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB)]

My Lords, first, what the Leader of the House has said about dispute settlement for trade seems incredibly complex. Can she say whether there is any precedent for introducing into international law—because this will eventually be a treaty—the concept of “due regard” by one court for another? Has that ever been done before? This proposal is completely unsuited to some parts of the future partnership, particularly those dealing with justice and home affairs and the European arrest warrant, which cannot possibly be handled on the basis that has been set out. Would it not have been wiser to have looked at the precedent of the EFTA Court, on which we could have representation and which would provide a means of dispute settlement, for both goods and justice and home affairs? Secondly, the Statement states categorically and flatly that what has been proposed does not inhibit our right or ability to make deals with third countries. Can she name any third country that agrees with that proposition? Finally, the Brexit dividend seems to have come up. Could she table at some stage the size of the Brexit dividend, just for the next five financial years?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I am sure that the noble Lord will be pleased to know that Malcolm Turnbull has welcomed the fact that we want to talk about joining the Trans-Pacific Partnership after we have completed our exit from the EU. There are certainly countries which are very keen to have trade relationships with us. In relation to his question about dispute resolution, where there is a dispute, it will be raised in a joint committee, which can refer a question to the CJEU only with the agreement of both parties. If the joint committee cannot resolve the dispute, it will go to independent arbitration. That mechanism respects our red line that the court of one party cannot resolve disputes between the two and the EU’s red line that the CJEU has to be the ultimate arbiter of EU law.

Syria

Lord Hannay of Chiswick Excerpts

Monday 16th April 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB)]

My Lords, does the Minister recognise that I, along with the noble Lord, Lord Howard of Lympne, was one of the rather few people who supported the Government’s line in this House in 2013? It is therefore not altogether surprising that I should be quite clear in my own mind that the action taken on Friday was proportionate, justified and legitimate.

Perhaps the Minister could answer two questions which have not yet come up in the discussion. First, the situation now is, in legal and international terms, quite different from that of 2013. At that time, Syria had not yet signed the chemical weapons convention and was not bound by international law, other than the agreement of 1928, not to use them. The situation is now completely different; it has signed and ratified the convention in bad faith and is now using sarin, in some cases, and chlorine, which it is illegal to use as a weapon. That makes the situation far more clear-cut. Secondly, do the Government not recognise that there will not be a peaceful settlement in Syria until all parties to this conflict—heaven knows, there are far too many of them—recognise that there is no possibility of a sustainable peace won by a military victory? I would like to hear what the Government plan to do to ensure that that truth is brought home to some of those who are engaged in that unhappy country, so that we do not have to repeat this exercise.

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

The noble Lord is absolutely right that despite Russia’s promise in 2013 to ensure that Syria would dismantle its chemical weapons programme, overseen by the OPCW, that has not happened. Indeed, only last month the OPCW was once again unable to verify Syria’s declaration of its chemical weapons programme, so work obviously has to continue in that area. He is absolutely right as well that we need to see a transition to a new, inclusive, non-sectarian Government who can protect the rights of all Syrians and unite the country. That is what we continue to work towards and we remain committed to the UN-led political process.

Salisbury Incident Update

Lord Hannay of Chiswick Excerpts

Monday 12th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I thank the noble Baroness for her comments, and I am sure that our fantastic health services are doing all they can to support those who have been in contact with this agent. Once again, we wish Detective Sergeant Bailey all the best for a speedy recovery.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB)]

My Lords, will the Minister say just a word more about the Chemical Weapons Convention? Is it a fact that the possession of this substance by the Russian state would be a breach of its obligations under that convention? Presumably, if the answer to that is yes, its use would be an even greater breach. Could she say something about that and whether the Government are considering making a case before the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

We believe that this most certainly does go against the spirit of that treaty. We will be discussing that but, as I said, we have spoken to the Russian ambassador, we have set out our two explanations for this incident and I do not want to prejudge what may follow. We should wait, and decisions can be made on the basis of that response.

United Kingdom-European Union Future Economic Partnership

Lord Hannay of Chiswick Excerpts

Monday 5th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

We are very confident of getting a deal and, as we have said, we will be leaving the EU in March 2019.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB)]

My Lords, can I ask the Minister about two points on what I join others in recognising is a more pragmatic approach than we have had in the past? For example, in the Statement that she read out today were the words,

“we may choose to commit some areas of our regulations, such as state aid and competition, to remaining in step with the EU’s”.

I am sure that the Minister knows that state aid and competition issues are ruled on by the European Commission after lengthy inquiries and are subject to the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice. If we are going to do the same, how are we going to do it? By osmosis?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

Well, as the Statement made clear, if, as part of our future partnership, Parliament passes, for instance, an identical law to an EU law, it may make sense for our courts to look at the appropriate ECJ judgments so that they can interpret those laws consistently.

European Council

Lord Hannay of Chiswick Excerpts

Monday 18th December 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I think the Prime Minister is quite clear in the Statement about the fact that we do not agree with or tolerate such language. In relation to defence, the noble Lord may have been referring to the launch of PESCO, which is an important initiative to encourage collaboration across the European defence industry and has the potential to drive up defence investment across Europe. Although we do not plan to join the PESCO framework, we want to keep open the option to participate at a project level, including after we have left the EU, so we were pleased with the Council conclusions that allow that. In terms of our future relationship, the noble Lord will be aware that we have published a future partnership paper on Foreign Policy, Defence and Development and indicated, for instance, our interest in future partnerships, including a capability collaboration through the European Defence Agency and the Commission’s European defence fund.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick]

My Lords—

[Lord Lamont of Lerwick]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

On my noble friend’s first point, which picks up on the point that my noble friend made earlier, we are indeed looking to negotiate a bespoke trade agreement. All these agreements are in fact bespoke to the countries involved in them. I also agree with the comments he made at the end of his remarks.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick]

My Lords, the Minister might perhaps help us parse two very short words which relate to the time-limited stand-still period. The words are “as now”. Can she confirm that they cover trade in goods and services, including agricultural and fish products, the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice and all other aspects of the single market?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

As I have said, our objective is for access to each other’s markets to continue on current terms, based on the existing structure of EU rules and regulations. The framework will mean that we will start off under the CJEU and will be under it for part of the period. But the Prime Minister has always said that if we can agree provisions that will be part of the future relationship, such as a dispute resolution mechanism, we will aim to bring them forward at an earlier stage.

Brexit Negotiations

Lord Hannay of Chiswick Excerpts

Monday 11th December 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

The Prime Minister has said that the money we have discussed is in the context of agreeing our future partnership. We have also been very clear in setting out the valuations and we have agreed the important principles that will apply to how we rely on them. Further, we have agreed a fair settlement with the final bill estimated to stand at around £35 billion to £39 billion, which noble Lords will be aware is at least half of the reports we have had previously about how much money would be involved in the financial settlement. This is a good deal and it also means that we can begin to unlock the talks in order to start talking about the deep and special relationship and our future trading partnership.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB)]

My Lords, can the Minister respond to one point that occurs to me very sharply? The statement that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed seems to apply to all three pillars of this first-phase agreement. Is it really conceivable that the Government will take away the agreement that is reached on the status of EU citizens here and our citizens across Europe if there is no agreement? Is it their position that they will remove that? If that is the case, what assurance is being given to those 4 million citizens since they will then know that they will not have clarity until the last minute of the last hour of the last day of the negotiations?

Secondly, on the Irish issue, could not the Minister perhaps apply a common-sense rule which is that the text, it seems to me, states clearly that if there is no agreement, the regulatory alignment will apply in order to avoid a hard border? Is that the position, or is it also subject to being taken off the table if no agreement is reached?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

The Statement was very clear, and I hope that I was also very clear in my response to the noble Baroness and the noble Lord, that we all want to honour the agreements set out in the joint report. We have also said that the withdrawal agreement and implementation Bill, which we will bring forward, will set out what is in the withdrawal agreement—including citizens’ rights, any financial settlement and the details of an implementation period—which will be implemented directly into domestic law by primary legislation.

On Northern Ireland, the Statement made clear that we have agreed a fall-back option of last resort. We simply do not believe that we will be unable to find specific solutions to the border issue; we are confident that we will do so. If we cannot, the UK will maintain full alignment with internal market and customs union rules, which currently support north/south co-operation, economic co-operation across the island of Ireland and the protection of the Belfast agreement—and will do so in future. The joint report also clearly sets out that cross-community safeguards and consent are required from the Northern Ireland Executive and Assembly for any distinct arrangements in this scenario. As I said, we do not believe that it will come to that.

European Council

Lord Hannay of Chiswick Excerpts

Monday 23rd October 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I thank the noble Lord for those interesting comments.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB)]

My Lords, will the Minister accept my congratulations on two points? The first is the stance that the Government have taken on Iran, bilaterally with the President of the United States and at the European Council. Does she not find it a trifle odd that while we are preparing to leave the European Union our closest allies in this matter, which affects our national security, are indeed the main members of the European Union? Will she confirm that in Washington, the three countries that are so concerned—France, Germany and Britain—are working very closely to persuade Congressmen on the Hill not to move that dangerous step closer to another dispute in the Middle East?

The second congratulation is on the Prime Minister having ignored the letter that she received from some of her colleagues—I noticed that there was no reference to it— suggesting that she should leave the negotiations if there was not agreement on trade straightaway, which there has not been. Does that not demonstrate that it really is high time for the Government to put on the table in black and white what the consequences of leaving without a deal would be? Would that not be the best course and would it not bring it home to people, right across the European Union, that this option needs to be rejected?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I thank the noble Lord for his congratulations. They do not happen very often so I shall attempt to respond positively. I do not think it odd at all that our closest allies in relation to Iran are France and Germany. We are an international, global country and we have strong relationships across the world. Our three countries are all committed to the Iran deal, and it is working. The International Atomic Energy Agency has released eight reports on Iran’s nuclear programme since the implementation day of the joint comprehensive plan, all of which confirmed that Iran is fulfilling its obligations under the deal. The Prime Minister could not have been stronger in making that message clear and we were very pleased that the Council built on the joint statement made last week by the Prime Minister, Chancellor Merkel and President Macron, which reiterated our firm commitment to the nuclear deal. We will continue to support that.

In relation to the noble Lord’s second question, as I said in response to my noble friend Lord Lamont, the highest probability is that we will get a good deal but it is only right that we prepare for a no-deal situation. What we cannot and will not do is to publish information which will undermine our ability to negotiate that best deal for Britain.

Crown Dependencies

Lord Hannay of Chiswick Excerpts

Wednesday 19th July 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Goldie]

As I indicated to the noble Lord, the UK Government are engaged in close discussions with the Crown dependencies. There are formal quarterly meetings, specifically with the Chief Ministers of Jersey, Guernsey and the Isle of Man, attended, as I said, by the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State. A series of technical round tables has been organised with the Crown dependencies. The issue which the noble Lord raises is one of many of significance to the Crown dependencies, and these technical issues indeed include the area of agriculture and fisheries, where issues are being identified and this close pattern of engagement is being pursued. The Crown dependencies have been very positive about that level of engagement.

[Lord Hannay of Chiswick (CB)]

My Lords, can the Minister perhaps say something about substance rather than procedure? What status in trade are the Government hoping to negotiate in Brussels on behalf of the Crown dependencies? Presumably they are not allowed to negotiate directly themselves. What status will that be? Will it be remaining in the customs union, remaining in the single market, none of the above and something I have not yet thought of, or what?

[Baroness Goldie]

Well, we shall have to see. I am sure that the objectives of these close engagements and good discussions are precisely the kinds of issues to which the noble Lord refers and are very much to the forefront of the minds of the Minister and the Crown dependencies. That will of course form part of our overall approach to the negotiations.