Trade Bill

Debate between Lord Hamilton of Epsom and Lord Butler of Brockwell

2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 11th September 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, I congratulate my noble friend Lady Meyer on her maiden speech, which was distinctly moving. I knew about the story, which I had read in the press, of the problems that she had in being reunited with her children as a result of German divorce laws—but I must say that to hear it again strikes dismay, and many other emotions, in the heart of any mother or indeed father in this country today. I wish I could say that it was only the German divorce laws that were depriving mothers of their children; I am afraid the state in this country as well has a role to play in that.

She described her White Russian grandparents, a persecuted minority who had to flee. She also said that she was standing up for Brexit in this House. She will not be persecuted but she will certainly be in a minority—a very small minority, I have to tell her, because for some reason there are serried ranks in your Lordships’ House who think that the country made a very great mistake in voting to leave the EU and are not really reconciled, as we have heard from the noble Lord, Lord Butler, to the vote, which was a quite clear decision that made it absolutely clear to the country that we wanted to leave. This is strange, because I always think of the noble Lord as coming from what I call the mandarin class—people who have made the decision to dedicate their lives to politics but not to stand for election. Then someone makes a democratic vote—the country votes—and they say, “No, no, they’ve got it wrong”. Suppose that we ignore the vote of the country. Where does that leave the people of this country?

[Lord Butler of Brockwell]

I am very grateful to the noble Lord for giving way—I intervene because he referred to me. I do not assert that the British people got it wrong. I assert that they were not in a position to make an informed choice—and that is what I now want to see happen.

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom]

I would point out to the noble Lord that you could make exactly the same point about the verdict of a general election. You could say that the people who won the election did not give the right information, ignored many vital issues and produced inaccuracies in their election addresses. Do you, on that basis, reverse the general election? If you do, you will find that people will be given no option but to take to the streets.

Actually I am rather heartened by the people contributing to this debate. Many of my noble friends who have arraigned us with their views do not seem to be speaking here today. Perhaps they have been somewhat discouraged by the lack of enthusiasm for the rebels in my party in the other place, who failed to uphold any of the amendments to what was then the European Union (Withdrawal) Bill—perhaps the stuffing has been knocked out of them.

This seems to be a very sensible Bill because it paves the way for transferring many of our trading arrangements. As my noble friend Lord Lilley pointed out, this is not a very complicated exercise because, of the countries that have free trade agreements with the EU, only about four, accounting for 80% of our exports, really matter in terms of the negotiations.

The point was made by the Opposition Front Bench that some of these countries might want to alter the agreements. I have to say that I sincerely hope they do—but that does not mean that we do not transfer the agreements as they stand today on a cut-and-paste basis and then go back at a later date and negotiate a more wholehearted deal that will incorporate a lot more trade.

Liaison

Debate between Lord Hamilton of Epsom and Lord Butler of Brockwell

Thursday 27th March 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Butler of Brockwell (CB)]

My Lords, I make it clear that I make no criticism of the procedures of the Liaison Committee, which were perfectly fair, although I agree with the noble Lords, Lord McNally and Lord Forsyth, that there is an issue for Parliament here. The proposal that there were issues of such importance affecting the Civil Service that they required investigation had the support of not only the Public Administration Select Committee in another place but all the chairmen of the Select Committees that examine departments. It was a unanimous proposal from the Liaison Committee in another place. These are issues of importance, which may well be in the manifestos for the next general election. As I said in my remarks on 16 January, it would be extraordinary if Parliament did not examine them when there is such senior support for that in the House. While I absolutely understand the procedures that were followed by the Liaison Committee and have never sought to overturn either its recommendations or the list of subjects that it has proposed, I hope, as other speakers have, that if the House of Commons goes ahead with setting up an examination of these issues, the Liaison Committee of this House will be flexible enough to agree that this House should join in that investigation.

[Lord Hamilton of Epsom (Con)]

My Lords, I must confess that I did not realise that my noble friend Lord McNally had put down this amendment. If I had, I would have put my name to it. There is something seriously wrong with our Civil Service today and there is no better place than your Lordships’ House to give consideration to how it should be reformed.