House of Lords (Hereditary Peers) Bill

Lord Hain Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 25th March 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Northbrook (Con)]

My Lords, I will speak to my Amendment 110 in this group. The report of the Lord Speaker’s Committee on the Size of the House was published in 2017. As most noble Lords sitting here before then know, the Lord Speaker tasked the committee with exploring methods for reducing the size of the House. From the start, it took the view that any reduction in the number of Members must not be undone by reversion to the persistent historical tendency of the House to increase in size. The committee and the report designed a system intended to keep a reduced membership within a fixed cap for as long as the House remains an appointed Chamber, while allowing it to be refreshed and rebalanced in line with general election results over time. It has been strongly supported by the Campaign for an Effective Second Chamber.

At the time, the Lord Speaker’s report proposed a system that could be implemented without legislation. It required a working agreement between the parties and a willingness by existing Members voluntarily to take the steps needed to achieve the target reduction in the size of the House. It did not propose time limits or compulsory retirement for existing Members. The report proposed setting the cap on the size of the House at 600—a reduction in existing membership of more than a quarter, making it smaller than that of the House of Commons.

The committee report proposed, as per the amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Burns, that until the target of 600—which the noble Lord’s amendment would increase to 650—was reached, there should be a guiding principle of “two out, one in”, whereby one half of all departures, retirements and deaths from the House as a whole would be earmarked for reducing its size and the other half allocated to new appointments, distributed between the groups on a fair basis. Once a target had been reached, all vacancies would be allocated to new appointments: a “one out, one in” system.

To meet the aim of reducing the size of the House in a reasonable timeframe, the committee believed that it would be necessary to agree the rate of departures from the House. The extent to which the rate was to be increased—a matter for the House to decide—would determine how long it would take to reach the target of 600 under the “two out, one in” system. In deciding the rate, the committee believed it would be necessary to agree the basis on which future Members should be appointed, so that the current and new systems could be interwoven in a way that worked effectively.

Two other key areas in the report, as mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Burns, were, first, fixed terms of 15 years for new Members, to generate sufficient turnover, and, secondly, fair allocation of appointments to reflect the result of the most recent general election.

The fifth report of the committee, published in July 2023, detailed progress since 2017. Initially, then Prime Minister Theresa May responded positively to the report and, in the first two years of the scheme, good progress was made in reducing the size of the House. Prime Minister Boris Johnson showed no interest in the issue of the size of the House. While the number of departures from the House continued to be in line with the committee’s benchmark, the number of appointments far exceeded departures, and were granted predominantly to members of our party.

There was concern that, as the Conservatives now had so many more Members than Labour, the next Labour Prime Minister would appoint a large number of new Peers in order to get the Government’s business through the House. Of course, this has come to pass, with Keir Starmer having created, I believe, 45 new peerages.

The committee summarised the lessons learned over the previous six years. It now accepted that its original timetable for a transition to a House of 600 was too slow and vulnerable to political events. However, it felt that one of the lessons of the previous six years was that there is little point in going through a difficult period of reducing the size of the House if the progress is undone by excessive new appointments subsequently, particularly if those appointments are not fairly balanced between the parties in the way proposed by the committee.

Instead, it believed that it would be effective to seek to secure a limit on the size of the House and a fair way of allocating appointments before endeavouring to reduce the size of the House or introduce term limits for appointments. Ideally, the committee emphasised, this should be achieved through legislation. As the committee felt that this would not be a government priority, there could be a formal agreement between the main party leaders for the time being. This would ensure that retirements would not be cancelled out through excess future appointments, thus encouraging more Members to take retirement with confidence.

The committee focused on the process for appointing the Cross-Bench Peers, stating that the system was now “a muddle”. The regime introduced by Tony Blair involved the House of Lords Appointments Commission, HOLAC, appointing most of the Cross-Bench Peers, and the Prime Minister making up to 10 non-HOLAC Cross-Bench appointments per Parliament.

By 2023, this was no longer being observed. Instead, there have been a great number of prime ministerial appointments of Cross-Bench and unaffiliated Peers, while HOLAC has been limited to a maximum of two or three appointments per year, with none at all in five out of the last 10 years. While HOLAC appointed 59 Peers in its first 11 years, it has been granted only 15 appointments in the subsequent 11 years.

HOLAC’s aim is to appoint individuals who will add to the breadth of experience and expertise that already exists within the House of Lords, and to help to ensure that the House fully represents diversity within our country. It puts considerable effort into selecting and vetting the people who can best meet the needs of the House and show a willingness to participate regularly. HOLAC’s vital task cannot be achieved with the small number of appointments made over the last 11 years. The Prime Minister should revert to a maximum of 10 non-HOLAC Cross-Bench appointments per Parliament and increase the number of Members that HOLAC is allowed to appoint.

In summary, the amendment seeks to follow three key elements of the fifth report of 2023. First, there should be a cap on the size of the House, although 600 could be optimistic in the short term. Secondly, there should be term limits of 15 or 20 years to allow refreshment and rebalancing of the House. Thirdly, there should be a fair allocation of new party appointments. Fourthly, there should be a mandatory retirement age, which is not in the Burns report but was emphasised earlier by the Government as per their manifesto, although they are rowing back on this as the largest number of political Peers over 80 are Labour. Also, they have appointed several Labour Peers over the age of 80. I believe the combination of all four would bring the House size down to the level required, and a draft Bill should be published to implement these proposals before the end of this Session.

[Lord Hain (Lab)]

My Lords, I do not want to add to the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Northbrook, and certainly not to the excellent case made by the noble Lord, Lord Burns—that is why I put my name to his amendment—except to say that we cannot continue as we are. We are over 800 strong and we keep ballooning, and that has to stop. The size of the House is too great. I ask my noble friend the Leader of the House to reassure the House that she will take this seriously and consider the report by the noble Lord, Lord Burns. Incidentally, that report—I remember the debate; I took part in it—was supported by every party. The noble Lord’s all-party committee was not pushing against a great wall of opposition; it was supported by everyone, and we ought to do something about it. Will my noble friend consider doing so after the Bill is passed? We want this Bill passed as quickly as possible, but then we must return to this issue because it cannot be left on another shelf for ever.

[Lord Butler of Brockwell (CB)]

My Lords, the House will not want to be delayed. I just want to make one point in support of my noble friend’s amendment. I say to the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, that I had the honour of serving on the Wakeham commission and I think we did a pretty good job, but the committee under my noble friend Lord Burns did a better one.